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What do you think about the sacraments?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Not David, Apr 9, 2021.

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  1. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    You have a clear knowledge of Calvinist determinism, but you are ignoring the other facets of Calvinist theology. John Calvin believed that Christ was spiritually present in the Eucharist and that we should partake of the Eucharist weekly, and that this was essential so that our regeneration would be evident, and we would not have a superficial dead faith. Unlike Martin Luther, who to his discredit preferred to disregard the Epistle of James, John Calvin actively engaged with it.

    Although I am a minister in a Reformed denomination, Congregationalism, albeit an extremely high church, liturgical Congregationalist after the pattern of the King’s Weigh House, I have reached a point where while I regard Calvin as being theoretically correct owing to divine omniscience, on a practical level as far as we humans are concerned I think the pre-Calvinist doctrine, which was restated within the Reformed community by Arminius, is more applicable, because we clearly have a choice; God ultimately knows what choice we will make, but we do not, and if we take the view that we must continually chose to be with Jesus Christ in our life, that is ideal.
     
  2. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    "Baptism corresponds to this", the saving of Noah and his family through the flood on the ark symbolically points to the saving action of God in Baptism, "which now saves you"; Not by the "removal of dirt from the flesh" as though mere water removing dirt from the body can save, but in that water is "the pledge of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". In Baptism, having been joined to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, we have been born anew to a new life, a new and good and clean conscience toward God by the transforming, redemptive power of our Lord Jesus wrought by His resurrection from the dead into which we now live.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  3. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Albion just for your own interest read the context of
    1 Corinthians 11-2 where “ paradoseis” clearly means teachings
    and the word has the same stem as the verb handing down used in
    1 Corinthians 11-23 , handing on what the Lord handed to me.
    In that case means ordinances

    It really is doctrines and ordinances, in 2 thesallonians 2:15 not peripheral traditions.

    but we go round this circle too often!

    so let’s agree He is risen! Goodwill to all Christians including you!

     
  4. Anthony2019

    Anthony2019 Pax et bonum! CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    The 39 Articles state that there are there are two main "Sacraments of the Gospel" ordained by Christ. They are generally considered as being necessary for salvation: Baptism and the Eucharist.

    The 39 Articles also goes onto define what is meant by sacraments. It states that sacraments are "effectual signs of grace, and God's good will towards us, by the which he doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm our Faith in him".

    Other rites are mentioned such as:
    1. Confirmation.
    2. Reconciliation and Absolution.
    3. Anointing of the Sick.
    4. Holy Orders.
    5. Matrimony.
    However, the nature and practice of each of these five rites clearly meets the Article's own definition of a sacrament.

    Let's take marriage, for example. "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." (Matthew 19:6).
     
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  5. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    Baptism, Chrismation, the Eucharist, Ordination, Holy Matrimony, Reconciliation, and Holy Unction (the annointing of the sick with oil) can all be found in scripture, in the New Testament, and what is more, these sacraments are not empty superstitious rituals, like the rites of various Pagan religions, but rather the supreme expression of Love in its highest possible form, because in the liturgy, in these sacraments, we come into direct contact with God.

    And in this state of profound grace that we experience when we celebrate these holy sacraments, I myself have seen in others and personally experienced the healing of infirmities, and I can personally attest the love of God is palpable. This is why the earliest Christians celebrated these mysteries, and why all of the magisterial Protestant reformers such as Waldo, St. Jan Hus*, Luther, Cranmer, Calvin, Boucher, Zwingli, Melancthon, and John Wesley at least Holy Communion and Baptism as formally defined sacraments or ordinances, and also kept most or all of the other mysteries even if they no longer counted them as sacraments per se.

    *Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague are venerated as saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church; I have written of the history behind this in other threads, but it is quite interesting to note because they directly inspired Luther; without the Moravian Church there would be no Lutheran Church, no Reformation, and no Counter Reformation (which was actually a good thing, because as part of that process, the Roman Catholic Church stopped selling indulgences, cleaned up the rampant corruption, and made considerable efforts to improving catechesis; I think it is fair to say that Martin Luther, among other accomplishments, saved the Roman Catholic Church).
     
  6. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    Christ is risen indeed!

    Although for the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox on the Julian Calendar, who comprise the second and fifth largest denominations in the world, respectively, with all Eastern Orthodox except the Finnish Orthodox, and the Syriac Orthodox outside India, the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and the Coptic, Ethiopian and Eritrean churches, still being in the fourth week of Lent, out of respect for the persecution they recently suffered under ISIS I am not going to change my signature to say Christos Anesti until they celebrate Pascha in a few weeks.
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Each of the "other five" has some difficulties, but they aren't all the same. Marriage, for example, is spoken of and lauded in Matthew 19:6, as was noted.

    However, it was not ordained by Christ. The institution of Marriage and a solemnized ceremony, preceded the Christian era. So when it comes to the idea of a sacrament being ordained by Christ, this one kinda wasn't. ("...for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God" Art. XXV)

    Also, the physical component (bread/wine in Communion and water in Baptism), which is an ingredient in any sacrament, is lacking. People will say that it's the rings, but they are not essential to the sacrament
     
  8. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✞ Away until May 16th ✞ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    ADMIN HAT ON

    This thread is closed for review.

    ADMIN HAT OFF
     
  9. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON

    There has been a little cleanup in this thread. Please be sure to treat our brothers and sisters with loving kindness.

    MOD HAT OFF
     
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  10. Taodeching

    Taodeching Well-Known Member

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    Love em
     
  11. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    Do you still have that prayerbook? If you could share with us the title that would be extremely helpful, because it might be in the punlic domain md downloadable from the Internet Archive, Project Gutenberg or Google Books.
     
  12. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    If I get a chance, I will see if I can find it. It is packed away somewhere. At this point in time, I am sure it is in the public domain.
     
  13. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    Many thanks!
     
  14. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    To those who believe in the sacrament of confession, I confess that I have a problem with this practice. Plz explain to me why you practice this?

    What is the biblical evidence for your belief? Why do you think it's necessary to confess to a pastor? Does your church consider it a prerequisite for receiving communion? How do you practice this sacrament?

    Which Lutheran denominations practice this sacrament?
     
  15. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    To begin at the beginning, Jesus gave to his apostles the authority to forgive sins, and also the authority to withhold forgiveness:

    Jhn 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

    That authority was handed down by the apostles to their successors through the laying on of hands. As Paul said to Timothy:

    1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

    And yes, it is a pre-requisite to the Eucharist. Paul said also:

    1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

    For a man to "examine himself" is to examine the conscience, to see that it is clear. To do otherwise brings condemnation:

    1Co 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

    1Co 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
     
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  16. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✞ Away until May 16th ✞ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    Most (all?) Lutherans practice both corporate (in the Liturgy) and individual confession to a pastor. It is a prerequisite for communion as the corporate confession is part of the liturgy before the eucharist is celebrated (usually it is at the start of the service).

    Most Lutheran synods allow for individual confession, which is very much like a Catholic practice. But I am not sure how many people actually choose to do this, I would imagine it is very low percentages.

    I am not aware of any Lutherans that consider it a Sacrament though, most only consider the Eucharist and Baptism sacraments. That does not mean that the other ones do not have value, not at all, but rather that they were not instituted by Christ directly.
     
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  17. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Anglicans also practice corporate confession, which is a great thing to do before the Eucharist. I have a problem understanding the purpose of individual confession to a pastor, though.
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    There are several problems with that answer, however. For one, confession doesn't meet the definition of a sacrament--no physical properties, no explicit commission by Christ, and probably no reason to think that the act confers grace. Secondly, it didn't appear in church history until centuries after the time of the Apostles. Not as practiced in the churches that consider it a sacrament.
     
  19. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    I think the difficulty we are having is in defining "sacrament". We tend to speak on this board in Western terms. In the Eastern Church there are no "sacraments", but rather "holy mysteries". And there is no specific number as in the Western Church. Most anything entailing the Church is a holy mystery, oftentimes referred to as a sacrament in the West. Also in the Western Church they are numbered at seven.
     
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  20. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I get the point--in theory. But in practice, the Eastern Churches seem always to agree to the seven sacraments and to transubstantiation.

    So exactly how the concept you describe and the reality that I'm referring to can be harmonized, I don't know. Maybe you do.
     
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