Why don't you quote the previous verse that talks about the symbol?No.
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
It's a symbol of what actually saves. Faith plus Christ.
Neither water nor a clear conscience nor the sacrament of Baptism itself guarantees salvation, if that's what anyone is thinking. The sacrament, however, does forgive sin in addition to imparting Grace and marking the recipient as a member of Christ's church.No, it says the pledge of a clear conscious saves you, not the water.
Well, baptism, the Lord's Supper, confession of sin, annointing the sick with oil and laying on of hands for authorization to pastor/teacher are all ordinances of the NT.Do you like them, do you oppose them? Share your opinion.
Hi Paidiske, along with baptism and the Eucharist, most Lutherans also consider Confession and Absolution a sacrament; an arguement can also be made for Holy Orders, as it is through the Clergy that the sacraments are administered, and thus, esential in the delivery of grace. The Small Catechism says two. It is more of a matter of definition. Two, three, or four, the rest can be considered "sacramental acts". Most Lutheran theologians would define a sacrament as 1, being instituted by Jesus Christ; 2, contains physical elements (water, bread, wine, laying on of hands); 3, being a means of grace whereby sins are directly forgiven by God throgh their administration.
Well, baptism, the Lord's Supper, confession of sin, annointing the sick with oil and laying on of hands for authorization to pastor/teacher are all ordinances of the NT.
Then again, some of us are slightly bewildered by people in denominations who glorify ritual past any point where it is Christlike and judge us to be some kind of savages, without ever looking at our reasons with an open mind.Indeed so.
I myself am strongly opposed to denominations like the Salvation Army which do not practice the sacraments.
I believe in all seven of the sacraments
- Baptism
- Eucharist
- Confirmation
- Sacrament of Reconciliation
- Holy Matrimony
- Ordination of Bishops, Priests and Deacons
- Anointing of the Sick
Wow, that's awesome - enjoy it!!Beautiful. You also go to that very high church parish?
My dream is that some day we might live to see a reunion of high church Christians from Anglicanism, Lutheranism and some of the other denominations (including the high church Methodists, Moravians and Congregationalists; in the late 19th and early 20th century one of the most Anglo Catholic churches in the UK was the King’s Weigh House in the City of London, which was Congregationalist and used a beautiful liturgical service book called Devotional Services, composed by Fr. John Hunter, which was really on a par with the BCP in terms of beauty, and bits and pieces of it survive even in the liturgy of my former Congregational denomination, the UCC), together with the Eastern Orthodox, who have a Western Rite, the Oriental Orthodox, who used to have a Western Rite (in Sri Lanka), the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, the conservative Old Catholics (the Polish National Catholic Church and the Norwegian Catholic Church), and in some manner, part or all of the Roman church, if the Roman church reverts its liturgy to a more traditional state or conducts the Novus Ordo Missae in a more consistently reverent and beautiful manner.
Because the Saturday services of my church are in the early afternoon, I get the pleasure of attending Saturday morning divine liturgies and Saturday evening Vespers / All Night Vigils at some of the Orthodox churches, and during the midweek I go to a said Evening Prayer and Holy Communion at a local high church Comtinuing Anglican church which has a real talent for liturgical beauty. Unfortunately, they do not have a church school and consequently, no boys choir (there are only a few good Anglican/Episcopalian boys choirs in the US, of which the best one I believe is St. Thomas Church on Park Avenue in Midtown Manhattan).
Then again, some of us are slightly bewildered by people in denominations who glorify ritual past any point where it is Christlike and judge us to be some kind of savages, without ever looking at our reasons with an open mind.
Wow, that's awesome - enjoy it!!
You guys are spoilt for choice
In South Africa, there are very few opportunities for this sort of thing - most churches do not even have their own buildings, and those that do are not built in any traditional style or are not liturgical.
To have an amazing church building close by - nevermind a good choir etc. - would be just awesome.
A lofty goal!!! Unity in ceremony is one thing; unfortunately, unity in theology remains the road block.Beautiful. You also go to that very high church parish?
My dream is that some day we might live to see a reunion of high church Christians from Anglicanism, Lutheranism and some of the other denominations (including the high church Methodists, Moravians and Congregationalists; in the late 19th and early 20th century one of the most Anglo Catholic churches in the UK was the King’s Weigh House in the City of London, which was Congregationalist and used a beautiful liturgical service book called Devotional Services, composed by Fr. John Hunter, which was really on a par with the BCP in terms of beauty, and bits and pieces of it survive even in the liturgy of my former Congregational denomination, the UCC), together with the Eastern Orthodox, who have a Western Rite, the Oriental Orthodox, who used to have a Western Rite (in Sri Lanka), the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, the conservative Old Catholics (the Polish National Catholic Church and the Norwegian Catholic Church), and in some manner, part or all of the Roman church, if the Roman church reverts its liturgy to a more traditional state or conducts the Novus Ordo Missae in a more consistently reverent and beautiful manner.
Because the Saturday services of my church are in the early afternoon, I get the pleasure of attending Saturday morning divine liturgies and Saturday evening Vespers / All Night Vigils at some of the Orthodox churches, and during the midweek I go to a said Evening Prayer and Holy Communion at a local high church Comtinuing Anglican church which has a real talent for liturgical beauty. Unfortunately, they do not have a church school and consequently, no boys choir (there are only a few good Anglican/Episcopalian boys choirs in the US, of which the best one I believe is St. Thomas Church on Park Avenue in Midtown Manhattan).
You are correct, but a bit off topic here. What you state above is the main reason my and many other Churches; including Orthodox and Catholic practice closed communion. No such Biblical constraints on Baptism. Confession and Absolution require contrition/repentence.You need to be saved by grace before taking the sacraments. Many are sick and die not being worthy of them.
“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.” 1 Corinthians 11:23–29 (KJV 1900)
Our Lord also states "for the forgiveness of sins". You can not pick and choose what Scripture says; in the case of the Eucharist, Baptism and Confession and Absolution, all three are tied directly to promises of forgiveness of sins by our Lord Jesus Christ, in His own words, in Scripture. There is a memorial element in addition to the means of grace, but by denying that promise of grace is calling Jesus a liar.Where does it even begin to suggest that? Jesus said, "This do in memory of me".
So you think the sacraments are a "vending machine" like you have for candy bars? Jesus says they are a memorial instead.Our Lord also states "for the forgiveness of sins". You can not pick and choose what Scripture says; in the case of the Eucharist, Baptism and Confession and Absolution, all three are tied directly to promises of forgiveness of sins by our Lord Jesus Christ, in His own words, in Scripture. There is a memorial element in addition to the means of grace, but by denying that promise of grace is calling Jesus a liar.
I saw a friend of mine in the street the other day. He asked me if I was going to the "Catholic church". I had to remind him that I was still part of the CofE, even though my parish church is very high church! I also like to go to our local Cathedral for their worship services, which are always very traditional, but I'm going to have to wait until it fully reopens again!Beautiful. You also go to that very high church parish?
My dream is that some day we might live to see a reunion of high church Christians from Anglicanism, Lutheranism and some of the other denominations (including the high church Methodists, Moravians and Congregationalists; in the late 19th and early 20th century one of the most Anglo Catholic churches in the UK was the King’s Weigh House in the City of London, which was Congregationalist and used a beautiful liturgical service book called Devotional Services, composed by Fr. John Hunter, which was really on a par with the BCP in terms of beauty, and bits and pieces of it survive even in the liturgy of my former Congregational denomination, the UCC), together with the Eastern Orthodox, who have a Western Rite, the Oriental Orthodox, who used to have a Western Rite (in Sri Lanka), the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, the conservative Old Catholics (the Polish National Catholic Church and the Norwegian Catholic Church), and in some manner, part or all of the Roman church, if the Roman church reverts its liturgy to a more traditional state or conducts the Novus Ordo Missae in a more consistently reverent and beautiful manner.
Because the Saturday services of my church are in the early afternoon, I get the pleasure of attending Saturday morning divine liturgies and Saturday evening Vespers / All Night Vigils at some of the Orthodox churches, and during the midweek I go to a said Evening Prayer and Holy Communion at a local high church Comtinuing Anglican church which has a real talent for liturgical beauty. Unfortunately, they do not have a church school and consequently, no boys choir (there are only a few good Anglican/Episcopalian boys choirs in the US, of which the best one I believe is St. Thomas Church on Park Avenue in Midtown Manhattan).
Two, although it doesn't offend me terribly if people sometimes use the word to refer to other ceremonies that have been solemnized by the church and which are not in the same category as the "Sacraments of the Gospel."
Not at all; you either don't read my posts (ttps://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-do-you-think-about-the-sacraments.8204895/page-3#post-75882053) or are just here to troll. A vending machine requires payment before dispensing goods. There is not way that we could ever afford the price, only the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient payment for the grace which is bestowed through the Gospel and the sacraments.So you think the sacraments are a "vending machine" like you have for candy bars? Jesus says they are a memorial instead.
“And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.” Luke 22:19 (KJV 1900)
A lofty goal!!! Unity in ceremony is one thing; unfortunately, unity in theology remains the road block.