what do you think about Fellowship Drinking by Bible College students at bars?

[createdtoworship]

Regarding Legalism vs joy, the Babylonian Talmud states: “God will hold us accountable for every permitted pleasure that we forfeit.”

Does this apply to alcohol as well?

Most of this is my opinion and not really from the Bible (but there will be scripture in an attachment to this op)

I think in many cases you can have two drinks Biblically.

as long as driving is not impaired at all, or other fine motor skills like walking in a straight line etc are not impaired even remotely.

so for the most part if you are over 120 pounds you can have two typical drinks*, two beer, two glasses of wine, etc and not have driving impaired.

most states DUI's occur at .08 BAC.

The civil law says that we cannot be drunk, and that wordage is used in the Bible too.

but I believe the Bible states that we cannot even be impaired. (I would say that a BAC under .48, or 1-2 drinks is okay for people over 120 pounds)

Impairment which comes at 3 drinks for most people is legal according to civil law. (people call it "buzzing")

I myself, and my opinion in the matter is that I stick to one drink a day (or stopping before "buzzing" or having even a slight impairment)

even though I could probably do two without a buzz or impairment, I stick to one only.

partially because some people cannot do a second drink* without impairment, and it is sort of unfair that heavier people should be able to drink more.

but also because 1 drink* is a good line in the sand and many drinks have varying alcohol content, from 5-10%. So it's important to read labels, to know how many ounces and what percent alcohol it is. (not sure about mixed drinks, I personally avoid them)

Fellowship Drinking.

I was never a fan of it. (this became popular in following years at the semi-Pentecostal bible college I attended)

I thought drinking is something you do with friends and family, or in the privacy of home.

but to go to a bar with other friends to fellowship and drink......well, that didn't set right with me.

Mainly because I come from an alcoholic home.

My father would come home late after doing his hours at the local sheriffs department. He would be drunk.

I grew embittered toward bars.

I never like them, for what they did to my dad.

But again a bar doesn't kill people, it's the people who keep the bars in business.

My dad died later from hitting his head, after passing out from drinking. the doctors said that even if he didn't die then, that in 6 months cirrhosis of the liver would have killed him.

For most of my Christianity I would never even touch alcohol. But as I got older I realized that there is a thing called moderation.
Regarding Legalism vs joy, the Babylonian Talmud states: “God will hold us accountable for every permitted pleasure that we forfeit.” Instead of being legalistically opposed to all alcohol (something not in the Bible). I decided that moderation is what I would do. But I realized that the same tendencies that run in my father also run in me. So I only do one drink, even though two is technically acceptable for my weight to do two without being close to impairing my fine motor skills.

Now I have not got into the Bible regarding all this. what are your thoughts about drinking?

Can a Christian only drink wine? Or no alcohol? What about hard liquor? What about malts? Is the calorie content reason for abstaining? And what do you think about Bible College students fellowship drinking at a local bar?

foot note *=(for more info on BAC content see this calculator: http://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/tools-quizzes/Blood_Alcohol_Calculator)

**as many alcoholic drinks vary in alcohol content. for instance 1-3 tablespoons of rum = one drink, while 12 ounces of hard rootbeer is one drink. It depends. (I had a hard rootbeer last night, very good)

(note additional laws and rules apply for those who struggle with alcoholism, and you can talk about that as well, as to not stumble)

(attached is a document about alcohol in the Bible-

 

[createdtoworship]

I will not be monitoring this thread for a few weeks, as I am taking a break from CF, and fasting social media (most of it), sometimes I get overloaded. So I will be back later, enjoy and remember:
Regarding Legalism vs joy, the Babylonian Talmud states: “God will hold us accountable for every permitted pleasure that we forfeit.”

 

[SkyWriting]

The Bible states:

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a
breastplate, and the hope of..

1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace
to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.

And many other calls for being sober.
http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=sober

Personally, moderation is fine. Jesus even created wine out of a jug of water.

But modern man is aware of those with a weakness for alcohol.
One of my co-workers remains sober at all times, up until he takes one drink.
Then it may be days before he shows up for work again.
We are also called not to encourage alcoholics to drink.

So do what you can to be sober and encourage others to be sober as well
without smacking them in the head with a Bible.

----------------------

 

[Nithavela]

I'm missing the option "chug away, you are an adult and should make your own decisions".

 

[High Fidelity]

Drinking is not a sin. Drunkenness is.

So yes, moderation and err on the side of caution.

 

[Sketcher]

I think any more than two would be problematic for most people. I don't see what difference being in a bar makes.

 

[Dave-W]

The church I grew up in taught that accidentally smelling alcohol was the sin of drunkenness and cost you salvation.
So alcohol was NOT a "permitted pleasure."

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

what are your thoughts about drinking?...

I have never drank alcohol.

I do not understand why people do it.

The idea that it is somehow a sin not to do it is patently absurd.

 

[createdtoworship]

But modern man is aware of those with a weakness for alcohol.
One of my co-workers remains sober at all times, up until he takes one drink.
Then it may be days before he shows up for work again.
We are also called not to encourage alcoholics to drink.


----------------------

logic is false:

under your premise, we must not eat at a buffet at all, because of that one person in the city, or country that may run into us and has a temptation for gluttony. I understand moderation because the Bible commands it, but not because of weakness of others. Most Christians drink in their own home anyhow because Bars are a little extreme. But then again I know lots of Christians who love bars.

just not getting drunk at them.

so for me personally, I don't do the bar thing at all.

but I enjoy a hosts of alcoholic flavors, and types. Just one a day. Thats it.

 

[createdtoworship]

I have never drank alcohol.

I do not understand why people do it.

The idea that it is somehow a sin not to do it is patently absurd.

legalism is not a good thing.

nor judging others with our legalistic lifestyles.

what about rated R movies.

see, our classification system is not right.

so for a pastor to say anyone who watches a rated R movie, and listens to secular music is going to hell....well that's legalism.

same with alcohol.

now, I do watch rated R movies, but I go to movieguide.org, and make sure they don't mention "strong caution advised".

many pg-13 movies are all about paganism, and materialism.

so a movie like the patriot with mel gibson, that has a little more battle scenes than the normal...but teaches patriotism, and being a good citizen, father, and leader...

same with secular music.

(now I don't typically listen to it, but it's very okay for a christian to do so)

and they are not in danger of hell.

so you can see, it's just the tip of the iceburg.

now is secular music a "permitted pleasure" no.

is rated R movies ?

not really.

but neither are christian songs that sing about kissing boys as well.

I remember a song by "sixpence none the richer" called "kiss me".

and no, not talking about God.

now whats the difference if a country song sings it?

now it's worldly, but not MORE worldly.

so you can be legalistic across the board.

it's one thing to have a line in the sand, and not cross it.

but that line, may not be my line.

or their line.

and just because your line is 10 feet up the beach (thats thousands of miles long), doesn't really make one more spiritual.

But yes, holiness makes us more spiritual.

but self righteousness, nullifies any holy living we have.

because if we don't have love, our lifes are just a "clashing cymbal"

1 corinthians 13:1

now one group that has these types of ideas well understood is the post moderns.

but again, you can take good things from their ministry mindset, yet not their liberal views of scripture.

and by post modern I mean (emergent churches, acts 29 network)....which I know is a dated term.

but for lack of a better word it will work.

I have about a dozen friends in this type of ministry.

and they vary in their hermeneutics. But overall, I see a lack of literal interpretation, a lack of gifts of the spirit, a lack of holiness (in other areas than the above, which are grey areas for the most part , and for our purposes).

but I think they do have a good sense of the cultural needs of the world.

and christians tend to be self righteous, and closed of to the world.

and in that point alone, the post moderns are right.

 

[createdtoworship]

I have never drank alcohol.

I do not understand why people do it.

The idea that it is somehow a sin not to do it is patently absurd.

The idea that in the Bible they only drank wine because it was the only suitable drink, is not really true.

for years I was taught that because of bacteria, wine was the only thing that would store.

and yes, it did store well, in "wineskins"

but what about a well?

or a stream of fresh water?

thats potable as well, so no.....part of the idea at the wedding of cana, was to get drunk.

God...provided the stuff that people got drunk off of.

now, He commanded his disciples to be moderate, but they hung out with the drunkards, and even brought beer to the party.

that is a direct interpretation.

now you can use whatever hermeneutic you want, but the truth is that wine is mentioned in the bible dozens of times, and the very first miracle of Jesus was created a good vintage wine, out of ceremonial potted water.

so to say, that the guy that created wine, does not desire you to drink it, is very odd to me.

I think God does desire for people to have a warming affect of a single drink of alcohol because it is actually healthy (one drink is)

the relaxation, and the stomach settling it does is helpful as well.

(a little bit of alcohol is actually healthy, but no more than a few drinks a day)

it leads to sleep deprivation, as well a loss of mental faculties.

ultimately, it will damage the liver and allow the drinker to consume unnecessary calories, and weight.

so again, I am not suprised Jesus made wine out of water.

In fact reading the histories of noah.

(the history of noah's travels through europe)

Which I have posted files here on cf of this history.

Noah, was the first in history to find the use of fermenting.

and it's affect on people.

but at that point there was no command. But it's overuse, caused God to issue an ultimatum of moderation.

but anyway, I think you see the point.

 

[createdtoworship]

I'm missing the option "chug away, you are an adult and should make your own decisions".

we should make our own decisions.

but chugging away, is not moderation....unless I don't understand you correctly.

 

[createdtoworship]

"Titles of Noah
Noah was called Ogyges Saga, which means Scythian, Great Patriarch, Sovereign Priest, and Mighty Sacrificer. Berosus affirms it saying "Primium itaque dixerunt Ogygam Sagam, id est, illustrem sacrorum pontificem Noam".
The Scythians and Armenians called him Olybarma and Arsa which means Heaven and the Sun.
He built many cities and named them after himself and his wife Titea.

He is also called Ianus which in Scythian means "giver of wine". He was first to find out the use of it, and was not able to endure its strength. He invited many of his friends and became drunk."- Berosus (ancient historian and non partisan chaldean priest), quoted in "noah's travels through europe"- 16th century work of ancient history.

So it's safe to say historically Noah invented the concept of drinking, and found out that it was good for partying, and partied.

Now was it right?

Not really, because anything that alters judgement is not good. But on his behalf, alcohol was not mentioned, but He should have known better.

absolute power corrupts.

noah and his sons inhabited the entire european continent, sending his sons to each district to set up laws and cities, and found nations.

that power will corrupt you.

it's very hard, NOT to become corrupt with power.

not only was wine an issue, but with his sons, magic became an issue, as well as the occult (with Ham or AKA Cham)

one of the three sons of noah, was actually the same person in history known as zeroaster (Ham AKA Cham)

and you can read of His exploits all over the net and in history books of ancient europe.

he was brilliant, but again became corrupted. Satan loves an open door and used Noah's son to introduce witchcraft into history.

so again it's very interesting.

But the point above is really just to say that Noah invented the idea of fermented drink for pleasure.

And it's safe to say, seeing my last post that it's okay to drink for pleasure, or for joy, as long as you don't go as far as noah, now that the Bible (commands not to).

(I will clip the pdf of this file for you guys (the history). )

I read it probably four times. Very fascinating, even greek mythology found it's roots in some of noahs lineage. Hercules was a military genius and king, and because of his exploits was deified amongst some.

 

[jayem]

A theology professor I met at a conference told me that the restriction on alcohol use by Christians is purely a Protestant invention. And it evolved from Protestants wanting to separate themselves from the RCC. Alcohol has always been a part of Catholic rituals and celebrations. The more certain Protestant sects wanted to reject Catholicism, the more they rejected alcohol.

There is a passage in the Koran, where Mohammed says not to drink any wine made from grapes or dates. And one of the Buddha's 5 moral precepts is to refrain from intoxicants. So teetotalling is a scriptural duty for observant Muslims and Buddhists. But it's not explicitly required for Christians.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Wouldn't you be seeking the Christian's perspective for the answer to your question? If so , as I thought when I opened this window, wouldn't your query better serve its purpose in the Christians ethics section? Located here at this link. After all it is fellowship drinking by Bible college students that you're asking about. Worldly ideas wouldn't apply in such instances.

Hope to see you there. I think this is a worthy question this time of year. That's why too much contention from the pro-world side doesn't appear to serve for a righteous perspective.

 

[farout]

I will not be monitoring this thread for a few weeks, as I am taking a break from CF, and fasting social media (most of it), sometimes I get overloaded. So I will be back later, enjoy and remember:
Regarding Legalism vs joy, the Babylonian Talmud states: “God will hold us accountable for every permitted pleasure that we forfeit.”[/QUOTE

For me, I drinking is wrong. I will not be used as an example of a Christian who drinks. I have seen and heard so many backslidden Christians use these lame excuses; Jesus made water into wine, Paul told Timothy to use a little wine for his health issues. Those who come up with these reasons that I have known of were struggling with drinking too much, were people who went to bars with friends and did not want to take a stand against drinking. The reasons Christians use for drinking is too long to go on with.

However we are responsible to not to cause others to stumble. For me I do not want to face Christ and attempt to justify drinking and that some weak Christian followed my example. Paul warns us not to cause a weaker believer to fall based on my doing some questionable activity.

Finally as a side note if you are going to start a thread have the manors to sty with it or wait to start a thread until you can stay with it.

 

[Dave-W]

now you can use whatever hermeneutic you want, but the truth is that wine is mentioned in the bible dozens of times, and the very first miracle of Jesus was created a good vintage wine, out of ceremonial potted water.
so to say, that the guy that created wine, does not desire you to drink it, is very odd to me.

the pastor of the church I attended in high school said HE created grape juice instead of wine at the Cana wedding. He based that on the statement "You have saved the best for last;" and "... EVERYONE knows how much better grape juice is than that nasty old alcoholic wine..."

 

[com7fy8]

I believe the Bible states that we cannot even be impaired.

Paul says,

"All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (in 1 Corinthians 6:12)

This does not mean only impairment physically, I understand. But if we can not control and enjoy how much we eat or drink, this lack of self control is impairment. Can I just as easily enjoy a few sips and that's it? Am I most about loving so the pleasure of the drink does not impress me?

I stick to one drink a day

If you are not under the power of drinks, then it won't even be something you think about, much. If you are not under its power, why would you even think about it? Why would it be a regular interest of issue? Why would I fear it or seek it, if I am not under its power? Why would I boast what it can do, or boast that it can't do anything? Our own character has a lot to do with how we can be effected by things and people.

some people cannot do a second drink* without impairment,

Again . . . why would they . . . if they are really satisfied, need to go on to a second drink? If you truly enjoy and appreciate a beverage, you can stop at a sip and it is easily enough, with no lust and drive for more.

"be content with such things as you have," we have in Hebrews 13:5. Enough is enough. If we can't stop at one sip or a lick of anything, we are impaired by not being content in God's love, I consider.

However God "gives us richly all things to enjoy," we have in 1 Timothy 6:17. If we truly enjoy something, it does not control us, and enough is enough. We can enjoy something a lot or a little and it is enough. Because we are free in Jesus, and we find His goodness of love (Romans 5:5, Psalm 63:3) and peace (John 14:27, Philippians 4:6-7) to be so more perfectly satisfying than any physical enjoyment of this life. Caring for others is so more beneficial, being in God's love.

to go to a bar with other friends to fellowship and drink......well, that didn't set right with me.

Well, can you as easily go to a beach or your house, without drinks, and just as much enjoy one another? Or, are you dependent on, and therefore "under the power of" (1 Corinthians 6:12) having drinks present? In God's love, we so deeply enjoy and appreciate being with one another, anywhere and anytime. Cleaning my lady friend's kitty litter box is a precious romantic moment, along with anything else we do, because we love and so appreciate being with each other.

Also . . . are we being good stewards of our money, about what we eat and drink and other things we do? I understand drinks can cost more or less. And if we really are about love with each other, we can have a lot or a little and it makes no difference . . . anywhere. So, in case bar drinking has our attention, much more than many blessed ways to share, and places . . . possibly it has power over us.

I grew embittered toward bars.

I never like them, for what they did to my dad.

But again a bar doesn't kill people, it's the people who keep the bars in business.

Well, I wouldn't blame the customers or the bar tenders or bar owners. Each of us makes our own choices. And our own character can be our worst dictator. But, yes, we do effect one another; and I understand our Father has us being "members of one another" (Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:25) to help each other; so we need all our other Christian brothers and sisters and not just a bar hangout crowd, in order to grow in our Father's family caring and sharing love with His correction (Hebrews 12:4-11) of His love's perfection > 1 John 4:17 < if you are in a Christian education thing, by the way, I would hope you are hearing a lot about this, and this would be much more interesting a topic and reality, than what pleasures we are allowed to have. I dare say, never mind what is allowed, but what is our Father personally guiding us to do and enjoy? I keep finding how it is so more greatly enjoyable to share with real Christian people and to reach in love and adoptive caring for ones who need Jesus, and find out how to deal and relate in His love for impossible people, and discover how He has this bless and encourage us and make us stronger against our personality problems. How does drinking help make us stronger in God's own way of loving any and all people?

Back to if people keeping bars in business are killing people > by the way, do you mean bar customers or owners, who keep bars in business? > We could also go into who is really killing, by making guns . . . or who is murdering people, by slow degrees, by selling high-impulse sugar foods which children demand and then slowly die of food abuse; or are we who buy the junk food helping to encourage such products so they then get sold to and eventually kill children? Well > in the same family, one person can be dying while the other is staying healthy. Ones do tend to make their own choices.

And I understand that God is the One to be thanked for however we succeed at making and staying with good choices. His grace makes us successful. So, it is good to stay with prayer . . . including seeking our Father's correction (Hebrews 12:4-11) . . . and hope for anyone, about any trouble or problem, and be His example > not trying to invent general ways and methods to control people >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

God uses our prayer with hope for any person > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). And He uses our example of how to be real with Him and learn how to love.

There are groups who use methods to help people to stop their drinking, but then ones can get into adultery and barbiturates and even more trouble, I have been told by my father who dried out, and I have seen happen with him. He needed Jesus. After he dried out, he essentially was addicted to coffee and sugar stuff . . . still able to be under the power of pleasures. And self-help groups can be pick-up bars for ones intoxicated with other sorts of pleasure passions.

For most of my Christianity I would never even touch alcohol. But as I got older I realized that there is a thing called moderation.

But why would it get such attention, if we are not under the power of it? God "gives us richly all things to enjoy." (in 1 Timothy 6:17) We can consider what "all things" means. Why would we get isolated with only one or two or a few enjoyments < so-called and supposed enjoyments? There are a number of pleasures which are nice-feeling but which can isolate us to them and to only a few favorite people > sexual stuff, pets, sugar and chocolate, and coffee.

How about enjoying the rain which we so need in order to have life on this planet; yet, ones complain against and curse God's blessing of rain. And meanwhile they can praise what this evil world so cherishes for pleasure. But do we enjoy all the good things which we can enjoy in fellowship with our Heavenly Father????

Are we fellowshipping with God? Or, are we only able to enjoy being with certain other people who like certain limited things which we like? > "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46) Do we just as much enjoy the companionship of ones who do not drink? Is our fellowshipping Christ-centered, or drink-centered, then?

Can a Christian only drink wine? Or no alcohol? What about hard liquor? What about malts? Is the calorie content reason for abstaining? And what do you think about Bible College students fellowship drinking at a local bar?

Well, I understand that seminary costs a little. How much can we afford to invest in drinking? And how much is it good to be giving freely to people in need?

Regarding Legalism vs joy, the Babylonian Talmud states: “God will hold us accountable for every permitted pleasure that we forfeit.”

How about how our Father takes pleasure in >

"the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God" (in 1 Peter 3:4)?

And in this beauty of God's gentle and quiet love we also enjoy such pleasure of sharing with God Himself. If this is real to us, how much attention will any pleasures of this life get our attention???? He is more pleasure and of better quality, as the One who created physical pleasures. So, which is the wise person, the one who glumps into the goods God has made, or the ones who see those things as a test of if we would rather be with Him who made it ?

It may be like in a great feast. The rich man gave the feast, to see if ones would mainly or only relate with all the food, or would desire to spend time with him in love. There were those who went only after the pleasures, and not the treasure of sharing with him. But those who wanted him got everything and not only the food, but they enjoyed him most of all, plus the others who desired to be with him.

When Jesus called His disciples, this was so "that they might be with Him", Mark 3:14 says. So, in doing anything, not only drinking or not drinking, whom or what are we truly seeking?

thats potable as well, so no.....part of the idea at the wedding of cana, was to get drunk.

God...provided the stuff that people got drunk off of.

Well, Gradyll, what I recall and understand is > they drank what had already been provided by the giver of the wedding feast. Then Jesus turned the water into wine. And the master of the feast tasted it, and wow it was better than what they had already been drinking. And he said that usually the giver of a feast puts out the nicest wine first, and after people have drunk it, then is when he puts out the not so great stuff. What I can see is, how the good stuff gets people under the influence so they can't tell the difference when they drink what is less nice tasting. So, yes I can see they were getting under the influence.

But . . . by the way . . . the master could tell the difference; so if the earlier stuff was intoxicating, he had not gone along drinking with the others.

It is better to keep your senses so you can watch out for yourself and others. And, most of all, this is in God's love which makes us sensible and "sober" >

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." (1 Peter 5:8)

If we are being devoured by lust and craving only or mainly for alcohol and various forms of alcoholic sugar drinks or macho manly malt drinks, this is not truly enjoying, but being devoured. But as we become strong in God's love, we enjoy being with various people . . . like Jesus was doing at the feast. Jesus was about being with all the different sorts of people, to love any and all people. So, He who gave the changed water is more blessed than those who perhaps were seeking the wine and missing Jesus. They could have been appreciating and sharing with Him! and possibly much more enjoying and appreciating being with one another. What do you think about this?

 

[createdtoworship]

the pastor of the church I attended in high school said HE created grape juice instead of wine at the Cana wedding. He based that on the statement "You have saved the best for last;" and "... EVERYONE knows how much better grape juice is than that nasty old alcoholic wine..."

alfred edersheim, jewish historian disagrees with you, I attached the quotations a report in the op (first post)

please read some of it anyway, and let me know what you think.

 

[createdtoworship]

Paul says,

"All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (in 1 Corinthians 6:12)

This does not mean only impairment physically, I understand. But if we can not control and enjoy how much we eat or drink, this lack of self control is impairment. Can I just as easily enjoy a few sips and that's it? Am I most about loving so the pleasure of the drink does not impress me?

If you are not under the power of drinks, then it won't even be something you think about, much. If you are not under its power, why would you even think about it? Why would it be a regular interest of issue? Why would I fear it or seek it, if I am not under its power? Why would I boast what it can do, or boast that it can't do anything? Our own character has a lot to do with how we can be effected by things and people.

Again . . . why would they . . . if they are really satisfied, need to go on to a second drink? If you truly enjoy and appreciate a beverage, you can stop at a sip and it is easily enough, with no lust and drive for more.

"be content with such things as you have," we have in Hebrews 13:5. Enough is enough. If we can't stop at one sip or a lick of anything, we are impaired by not being content in God's love, I consider.

However God "gives us richly all things to enjoy," we have in 1 Timothy 6:17. If we truly enjoy something, it does not control us, and enough is enough. We can enjoy something a lot or a little and it is enough. Because we are free in Jesus, and we find His goodness of love (Romans 5:5, Psalm 63:3) and peace (John 14:27, Philippians 4:6-7) to be so more perfectly satisfying than any physical enjoyment of this life. Caring for others is so more beneficial, being in God's love.

Well, can you as easily go to a beach or your house, without drinks, and just as much enjoy one another? Or, are you dependent on, and therefore "under the power of" (1 Corinthians 6:12) having drinks present? In God's love, we so deeply enjoy and appreciate being with one another, anywhere and anytime. Cleaning my lady friend's kitty litter box is a precious romantic moment, along with anything else we do, because we love and so appreciate being with each other.

Also . . . are we being good stewards of our money, about what we eat and drink and other things we do? I understand drinks can cost more or less. And if we really are about love with each other, we can have a lot or a little and it makes no difference . . . anywhere. So, in case bar drinking has our attention, much more than many blessed ways to share, and places . . . possibly it has power over us.

Well, I wouldn't blame the customers or the bar tenders or bar owners. Each of us makes our own choices. And our own character can be our worst dictator. But, yes, we do effect one another; and I understand our Father has us being "members of one another" (Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:25) to help each other; so we need all our other Christian brothers and sisters and not just a bar hangout crowd, in order to grow in our Father's family caring and sharing love with His correction (Hebrews 12:4-11) of His love's perfection > 1 John 4:17 < if you are in a Christian education thing, by the way, I would hope you are hearing a lot about this, and this would be much more interesting a topic and reality, than what pleasures we are allowed to have. I dare say, never mind what is allowed, but what is our Father personally guiding us to do and enjoy? I keep finding how it is so more greatly enjoyable to share with real Christian people and to reach in love and adoptive caring for ones who need Jesus, and find out how to deal and relate in His love for impossible people, and discover how He has this bless and encourage us and make us stronger against our personality problems. How does drinking help make us stronger in God's own way of loving any and all people?

Back to if people keeping bars in business are killing people > by the way, do you mean bar customers or owners, who keep bars in business? > We could also go into who is really killing, by making guns . . . or who is murdering people, by slow degrees, by selling high-impulse sugar foods which children demand and then slowly die of food abuse; or are we who buy the junk food helping to encourage such products so they then get sold to and eventually kill children? Well > in the same family, one person can be dying while the other is staying healthy. Ones do tend to make their own choices.

And I understand that God is the One to be thanked for however we succeed at making and staying with good choices. His grace makes us successful. So, it is good to stay with prayer . . . including seeking our Father's correction (Hebrews 12:4-11) . . . and hope for anyone, about any trouble or problem, and be His example > not trying to invent general ways and methods to control people >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

God uses our prayer with hope for any person > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). And He uses our example of how to be real with Him and learn how to love.

There are groups who use methods to help people to stop their drinking, but then ones can get into adultery and barbiturates and even more trouble, I have been told by my father who dried out, and I have seen happen with him. He needed Jesus. After he dried out, he essentially was addicted to coffee and sugar stuff . . . still able to be under the power of pleasures. And self-help groups can be pick-up bars for ones intoxicated with other sorts of pleasure passions.

But why would it get such attention, if we are not under the power of it? God "gives us richly all things to enjoy." (in 1 Timothy 6:17) We can consider what "all things" means. Why would we get isolated with only one or two or a few enjoyments < so-called and supposed enjoyments? There are a number of pleasures which are nice-feeling but which can isolate us to them and to only a few favorite people > sexual stuff, pets, sugar and chocolate, and coffee.

How about enjoying the rain which we so need in order to have life on this planet; yet, ones complain against and curse God's blessing of rain. And meanwhile they can praise what this evil world so cherishes for pleasure. But do we enjoy all the good things which we can enjoy in fellowship with our Heavenly Father????

Are we fellowshipping with God? Or, are we only able to enjoy being with certain other people who like certain limited things which we like? > "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46) Do we just as much enjoy the companionship of ones who do not drink? Is our fellowshipping Christ-centered, or drink-centered, then?

Well, I understand that seminary costs a little. How much can we afford to invest in drinking? And how much is it good to be giving freely to people in need?

How about how our Father takes pleasure in >

"the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God" (in 1 Peter 3:4)?

And in this beauty of God's gentle and quiet love we also enjoy such pleasure of sharing with God Himself. If this is real to us, how much attention will any pleasures of this life get our attention???? He is more pleasure and of better quality, as the One who created physical pleasures. So, which is the wise person, the one who glumps into the goods God has made, or the ones who see those things as a test of if we would rather be with Him who made it ?

It may be like in a great feast. The rich man gave the feast, to see if ones would mainly or only relate with all the food, or would desire to spend time with him in love. There were those who went only after the pleasures, and not the treasure of sharing with him. But those who wanted him got everything and not only the food, but they enjoyed him most of all, plus the others who desired to be with him.

When Jesus called His disciples, this was so "that they might be with Him", Mark 3:14 says. So, in doing anything, not only drinking or not drinking, whom or what are we truly seeking?

Well, Gradyll, what I recall and understand is > they drank what had already been provided by the giver of the wedding feast. Then Jesus turned the water into wine. And the master of the feast tasted it, and wow it was better than what they had already been drinking. And he said that usually the giver of a feast puts out the nicest wine first, and after people have drunk it, then is when he puts out the not so great stuff. What I can see is, how the good stuff gets people under the influence so they can't tell the difference when they drink what is less nice tasting. So, yes I can see they were getting under the influence.

But . . . by the way . . . the master could tell the difference; so if the earlier stuff was intoxicating, he had not gone along drinking with the others.

It is better to keep your senses so you can watch out for yourself and others. And, most of all, this is in God's love which makes us sensible and "sober" >

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." (1 Peter 5:8)

If we are being devoured by lust and craving only or mainly for alcohol and various forms of alcoholic sugar drinks or macho manly malt drinks, this is not truly enjoying, but being devoured. But as we become strong in God's love, we enjoy being with various people . . . like Jesus was doing at the feast. Jesus was about being with all the different sorts of people, to love any and all people. So, He who gave the changed water is more blessed than those who perhaps were seeking the wine and missing Jesus. They could have been appreciating and sharing with Him! and possibly much more enjoying and appreciating being with one another. What do you think about this?

wow, quite a lengthy reply.

I see it is somewhat philosophical.

and I must say you did have this right...."that bars don't kill people, people do"

same with guns, etc.

I do have another embittered attitute toward bars, in that my dads drinking habit allowed him to find another woman at a bar, and eventually marry her.

He was police officer of the year, and a marine reservist of the year (in the same decade), to this day I don't know of another person to do that.

but he was not a good husband.

(he was a decent father, and he tried to do what was right)

And I forgave him entirely in my bible college years, preaching the gospel to him before he died.

and again on his death bed.

So if anyone should resent alcohol and bars, it's me.

yet I don't.

(the bars maybe, because of the meat market concept)

but as the op states if kids who want to go to a bar and drink, well, if they are bible college students, why go there?

why not applebees, or denny's or a friendly cafe that serves decent wine?

why bars?

that part I don't get.

now to adress some of the other stuff.

you mention the fact that I use "one drink" as my line in the sand.

but again I mention a few times, that this is my line, not anyone elses.

Some people could, have a few drinks and be okay via their weight limit.

but I suggest one

the reason is that it's easy to keep downing them.

Just like a soda, they taste like (not your dad's rootbeer)

for example.

but the limit is not because we are under their power.

thats like saying because you can't watch rated R movies, that you are somehow under it's power.

it's not the power we are talking about, it's the limit that you are placing on yourself.

Also when God says to be moderate in all things.

say for example the excersize of spiritual gifts.

it is to be done in decency and order.

does that mean that the ones who attempt to do it decently and in order, are under the bondage of the spirit?

See, your idea, while is preaches well, is actually quite flawed.

it may sound good from a Pentecostal pulpit, and no doubt has found it's way into many sermons.
but unfortunately it's a misconception.

I don't desire to sin, well ....actually I do...

that's what makes it a temptation.

we are all tempted, not because we are weak, but because sin is pleasurable at least in the short term.

but to put a limit on that sin, (like saying....mortify your members)

is to say that God created a person in bondage to sin, and that they are slaves of sin.

and while yes this is the unregenerate form, it is not the form the believer.

we are not bound by sin.

we in fact, don't have to be bound by it.

and the limits we put on our lives, are an example that we are in fact NOT in bondage, and is exact opposite of what you say...."that rules suggest bondage"