What do you suppose is the mark of the beast?

[Hammster]

Hi if you take that book in 1977 and look at some of the metrics they used it is interesting to consider them. For instance in the 70's and early 80's men like Billy Graham were quoted as saying things like if God does not judge America then he owes Sodom and Gomorrah and apology. You see they immovable end of a one world government and Israel getting the Temple, Ezekiel 38 and all are still on the board. Where they were wrong is in thinking that the US would fall and Europe would rise and become the 10 nations of Daniel. Now they also though we were as evil as could be and that judgment was nigh.
They also understood that the abomination of desolation would occur in the temple and in that day the Temple Institute made great gains in that front and many peace covenants were tossed about that very well could have been the covenant with the many made in Daniel 9 as expected.

So lets move forward to today and also consider Jer who was a young man when called and he preached a message that did not come to pass in full until he was very old. Now the evil of the world today verses 1977. Gay marriage is now legal in almost every country and even that basic fact of Genesis is now past tense that there are only two genders. Satan aspiration is to be like the most high and now we have genetically modified almost all crops and God created them and noted it was good now they are no longer made by the creator by hijacked with new codes. The world government is certainly now coming and if you study the great reset which is a real time plan with the support of most world leaders we are seeing it moving forward very quickly. The idea of Europe ruling the world is not going to happen but the idea of 10 leaders of 10 zones like the EU rising to power is very real. The beast gains control over all for only 42 months and then that is it Armageddon.

The symbols back then were plenty like the EU HQ being designed like an unfinished tower of Babel complete with a sculpture of a woman riding the beast on the outside. Now we have global symbols such as the UN making a replica of the ark of the covenant and placing the UN earth charter in it and carrying it on poles and placing it into the UN building in New York all decorated in new age symbols. Symbolically this is replacing the 10 commandments and right now the IMF is waiting to be the global federal reserve of the world.

You see if you list all the prophecy about Israel, Jerusalem the earth there is a before and after picture.
The key moment is when Jesus comes then compare to after he comes. You will not see abortion, gay marriage, genocides, Islam or any other false religion until the beast is loosed. There will be world peace and an abundance of grain and Jerusalem will be where Jesus sits on Davids throne and the new river created when the My of Olives splits is flowing in Ezekiel 47 when the 12 tribes gain their inheritance in the land. Look at Zech 12 and tell me when has this been fulfilled?

Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 4 In that day,” says the LORD, “I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.’ 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place—Jerusalem.
7 “The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

This is a long answer and barely covers any of the multitudes of the before and after aspect that is harmonious in both testaments.

You basically made my point. Every book written looks at what’s going on in that day and makes it fit.

What is better is to read scripture with proper hermeneutics and understand it as the original readers would understand it.

 

[RaymondG]

Readying and studying scripture can only lead to ever learning let never being able to come to the knowledge of truth. If I agree only with my study and understand of scripture and dismiss any notion that sounds contrary, I will have to also support the crucifying of Christ by the Masters of scriptures. For they were only doing what I am doing now.

This is why, once you take the mark, it is over. Very hard to strip a man from what they know is "truth."

 

[Taodeching]

Hi I must admit the faith of those who hold to Rev being a historical book and already completed is strong despite every detail the futurist hold lining up in real time in current events.

The problem with that is current events is that they are a moving target and the Bible can be contorted to any current event whether it be now or 1000 years ago. The SDA was born because of current events of that time and many past and present heresies were made around current events because they saw what they thought was the Bible happening in front of them. That is the problem with currents events match the Bible thinking, it does a huge disservice to the Bible by forgetting what the Bible is. Which is namely, an ancient book inspired by the Holy Spirit written for us but not to us. So we have silly speculation like what is the mark and when will it all happen instead of looking at the historical context or really any context.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I am amazed by the high level of education on end times prophecy exhibited here but I am surprised by the fact that nobody has as of yet adequately explained the mark. At least as far as I can tell.

"This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666."

So, who is the one who has understanding? And the term, count or calculate or whatever the exact translation is, is interesting. That implies a mathematical process. And is the number three 6's? The text makes it sound like a literal six hundred and sixty six. In other words a sum.

Then that number is the number of a man. I can't think of any number that would represent a man in biblical terms but today numbers are commonly used to ID people: SOC, drivers License, medical cards, insurance, credit, etc but what number would somebody be refering to 2000 years ago? Census, tax ID, the Roman's kept records. Age, weight, height, IQ, shoe size, cranial diameter....

Clearly I don't have wisdom in this context because I don't see it.

Edit: I wonder if this is relevant? "Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold." 1 Kings 10:14

Yes, the one with understanding would have read the proverbs of Solomon. So the prophet of the beast is based on the mammon of Solomon. God said don't amass lot of Gold, he did it anyway - the materialism of Solomon is the template of the prophet of the beast.

As Jesus said, you cannot worship God and Mammon. So the other option is "the anti"

 

[RaymondG]

Yes, the one with understanding would have read the proverbs of Solomon. So the prophet of the beast is based on the mammon of Solomon. God said don't amass lot of God, he did it anyway - the materialism of Solomon is the template of the prophet of the beast.

As Jesus said, you cannot worship God and Mammon. So the other option is "the anti"

Do you conclude, then that the mark is related to how hard you work......e.g. the amount of material possessions you are able to accumulate?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The problem with that is current events is that they are a moving target and the Bible can be contorted to any current event whether it be now or 1000 years ago. The SDA was born because of current events of that time and many past and present heresies were made around current events because they saw what they thought was the Bible happening in front of them. That is the problem with currents events match the Bible thinking, it does a huge disservice to the Bible by forgetting what the Bible is. Which is namely, an ancient book inspired by the Holy Spirit written for us but not to us. So we have silly speculation like what is the mark and when will it all happen instead of looking at the historical context or really any context.

Hi the SDA is a split off group from the Millerites who set a date for the rapture and when it did not happen some claimed Jesus mystically did fulfill that and the 7th day adventist are one of those groups. There always has been splinter groups who can be shown from scripture to be departing from scripture. You have not proven your case that there is no scriptural basis for a futurist view. Prophecy becomes a historical view only when it is fulfilled. I mention Zech 12 and perhaps you will give me the historical view for when the LORD destroyed many nations gathered around it in a siege?


The prophecies in Luke 1 are this about Jesus mission.

9 But when she saw him,[fn] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

If you look at all the passages that show the 2nd coming of Jesus he is taking the throne of David and delivering Israel from all their enemies. After this deliverance they are now born again having received the heart of flesh promised in Eze and in Jer. This before and after picture is still future. As that river created when Jesus returns is still flowing and heals the dead sea which will become a prosperous fishing area in chapter 47 at that same time teh 12 tribes receive their allotment in the land promised Abraham. This is future and still coming.

 

[SingingTheBlues]

Yes, the one with understanding would have read the proverbs of Solomon. So the prophet of the beast is based on the mammon of Solomon. God said don't amass lot of God, he did it anyway - the materialism of Solomon is the template of the prophet of the beast.

As Jesus said, you cannot worship God and Mammon. So the other option is "the anti"

Thanks for that. So far it is the best explanation I have heard and it's not some ethereal, far out, concept.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Hi the SDA is a split off group from the Millerites who set a date for the rapture and when it did not happen some claimed Jesus mystically did fulfill that and the 7th day adventist are one of those groups. There always has been splinter groups who can be shown from scripture to be departing from scripture. .

Hi Brian, i wonder if you might clarify what you mean by this?
I can categorically deny that SDA's have inserted a mystical anything for example one concerning the mystical secret rapture...it is not our doctrine (that is JW's).

William Miller remained convinced of his second coming prediction well after the SDA's left the Millerite movement.

Our church does not have any mystical earthly events in its doctrine that i can think of...our only diverging from mainstream theology is that of the nature of the heavenly sanctuary.
Our church has simply looked at the 70 week prophecy in Daniel and with what is actually very simple logic and interpretation of that prophecy realised that 1844 lines up with the idea that Jesus entered into the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary (as the priest did in the earthly copy prior to the cross) to undertake the next part of the sanctuary process in heaven.
We must all accept that the earthly sanctuary is but a copy of the heavenly one. This includes the services and processes undertaken in both sanctuaries. So it makes sense that in the heavenly sanctuary, Jesus would follow the exact proceedures the priests undertook here on earth.
In light of that, why is it that SDA's should be branded a mystic cult because they believe that Jesus (our high priest) has now moved into the most holy place in 1844? He couldnt have gone in the prior to his death, the day of Pentecost wasnt until weeks after he left the earth...so when exactly did this happen?
Daniels prophecy does actually line up with 1844. In any case, does this doctrine really save or condemn anyone? Are SDA's heretics for believing in this process in the plan of salvation?
I would label a wicked person/group as someone very different from such a doctrine...those who intentionally falsely translate/write their own bible to support pre existing doctrine for example! (we know 2 denominations that do that)

 

[Taodeching]

This is future and still coming.

I will disagree. First century.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Do you conclude, then that the mark is related to hoe hard your work......e.g. the amount of material possessions you are able to accumulate?

I don't think so.

For the reason that Jesus taught to those who could be saved, that life does not consist in the abundance of possessions. For this reason, it cannot be the mark of the beast since those who receive the mark are sent to the lake of fire before everyone else with the beast and the prophet thereof.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I will disagree. First century.

Hi Brian, i wonder if you might clarify what you mean by this?
I can categorically deny that SDA's have inserted a mystical anything for example one concerning the mystical secret rapture...it is not our doctrine (that is JW's).

William Miller remained convinced of his second coming prediction well after the SDA's left the Millerite movement.

Our church does not have any mystical earthly events in its doctrine that i can think of...our only diverging from mainstream theology is that of the nature of the heavenly sanctuary.
Our church has simply looked at the 70 week prophecy in Daniel and with what is actually very simple logic and interpretation of that prophecy realised that 1844 lines up with the idea that Jesus entered into the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary (as the priest did in the earthly copy prior to the cross) to undertake the next part of the sanctuary process in heaven.
We must all accept that the earthly sanctuary is but a copy of the heavenly one. This includes the services and processes undertaken in both sanctuaries. So it makes sense that in the heavenly sanctuary, Jesus would follow the exact proceedures the priests undertook here on earth.
In light of that, why is it that SDA's should be branded a mystic cult because they believe that Jesus (our high priest) has now moved into the most holy place in 1844? He couldnt have gone in the prior to his death, the day of Pentecost wasnt until weeks after he left the earth...so when exactly did this happen?
Daniels prophecy does actually line up with 1844. In any case, does this doctrine really save or condemn anyone? Are SDA's heretics for believing in this process in the plan of salvation?
I would label a wicked person/group as someone very different from such a doctrine...those who intentionally falsely translate/write their own bible to support pre existing doctrine for example! (we know 2 denominations that do that)

1844 was the date set by the Millerites and it is the same date your group was founded the Millerites were wrong to set a date now what a coincidence that it just happened to be date conjured up to claim Jesus made it to the sanctuary of heaven. Your link and roots to the Millerite movement should be obvious. If you preceded 1844 you might have a different root but I think SDA did not become an official organization until 1863.

 

[SingingTheBlues]

Withdrawn: Probably not the best question to ask.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Not contradicting your premise, and admittedly my knowledge of the SDA is pretty limited but is it possible that there are contradicting philosophies within the same church? I've seen that in other churches. Plus I have watched a number of the Doug Bachelor videos, not on this topic in specific, but what I saw seemed pretty sound as far as I could tell. Certainly nothing wacky or outside of standard Christian teaching.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I will disagree. First century.

Hi can you support your position with thought and the scripture? My belief is based on believing the prophecy about Jesus in Luke one. This passage clearly notes that Jesus will keep the promises covenants and oaths to the fathers that Israel will be delivered from their enemies and form that time on the shall serve the LORD without fear and now in holiness and righteousness all the days of their lives.

This begs the question what promises, oaths and covenants is he talking about?

Here I can share hundreds of prophecy promises and oaths that show this very deliverance and transformation spiritually at the time the kingdom comes and Israel is literally seen being delivered from their enemies and then becomes the people the LORD desired and fulfilled are the covenants, promises and oaths the LORD swore to keep.

One such example is in Hosea where the LORD had Hosea name one of his kids no mercy and another not my people. Yet the LORD speaks these words about these same people He cast off.

8 Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Then God said:
“Call his name Lo-Ammi,[fn]
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.
10 “Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’[fn]
There it shall be said to them,
‘You are sons of the living God.’
11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

And it shall be, in that day,”
Says the LORD,
“That you will call Me ‘My Husband,’[fn]
And no longer call Me ‘My Master,’[fn]
17 For I will take from her mouth the names of the Baals,
And they shall be remembered by their name no more.
18 In that day I will make a covenant for them
With the beasts of the field,
With the birds of the air,
And with the creeping things of the ground.
Bow and sword of battle I will shatter from the earth,
To make them lie down safely.
19 “I will betroth you to Me forever;
Yes, I will betroth you to Me
In righteousness and justice,
In lovingkindness and mercy;
20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness,
And you shall know the LORD.
21 “It shall come to pass in that day
That I will answer,” says the LORD;
“I will answer the heavens,
And they shall answer the earth.
22 The earth shall answer
With grain,
With new wine,
And with oil;
They shall answer Jezreel.[fn]
23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;[fn]
Then I will say to those who were not My people,[fn]
‘You are My people!’
And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’ ”

How long is forever? Where is Jerzreel? Who are these people? Look at this context.

At this time of Jezreel which is the same exact place as Armageddon they are betrothed to the LORD in faithfulness forever, not my people are now sons of the living God. Those who had not obtained mercy have now obtained mercy. How about this clause in this same prophecy?
Bow and sword of battle I will shatter from the earth,
To make them lie down safely.

Does this really mean world peace after the day of Jezreel? This same idea is hammered home and many witnesses tell the same story. Isaiah 9 talking clearly of Jesus
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

When does Jesus take the throne of David? The increase of his government and peace will be no end.
Hosea tells you where the battle bow is broken and it is at the 2nd coming of Jesus .

Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Do we see judgment and justice established at this time? NO


I can keep piling on many many passages that paint the same before and after picture. Your historical view must embrace replacement theology and allegorical interpretation of so many texts that tosses out a literal interpretation that is clear and cohesive.

 

[parousia70]

@[SIZE=6][B]Hämmster[/B][/SIZE]
John in the book of Revelation is specifically talking about end times.

Which he specifically said, over 1900 years ago, "must shortly take place" for the time was "near". (Revelation 1:1-3)

So to say, the mark of the beast is already past is a complete misunderstanding of the entire book of Revelation.

To say it isn't past is to outright reject John's infallible testimony about WHEN it was to take place.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

your hinging your whole case on that one verse which is a great assumption that you have go that verse correct. Think about Jesus 1st advent and how many prophecies were on the book for centuries. The LORD fulfilled them all in a very short time or quickly and most of them in a single week. Now if you take that interpretation to mean they will happen quickly when they do happen rather than shortly as in meaning at the near time this was written you will have to consider then what happens and did it already happen. I content they will be fulfilled rapidally , quickly when they start to be fulfilled and will be just like the 1st advent. Settling this in your mind will not leave you open to evaluate the entire case. This is not how a decision should be made but on the preponderance of the evidence. I initiated a case for teh before and after picture in post 54 and those things achieved are achieved rapidly and quickly when it transpires as in one day the LORD is now king, world peace, Israel saved all at the 2nd coming.

 

[Berean Tim]

Was probably the secret gospel of Mark. It was so provocative that people were tattooing the text on their right hands and foreheads.

Nobody has seen the “Secret Mark” only a photograph copy. No way to check it’s age or anything

 

[Hammster]

your hinging your whole case on that one verse

It’s not one verse. It’s multiple verses throughout the New Testament, either explicit or implied. But just Matthew 23 and 24, and Revelation 1 would be sufficient.

 

[parousia70]

Now if you take that interpretation to mean they will happen quickly when they do happen rather than shortly as in meaning at the near time this was written you will have to consider then what happens and did it already happen.

If you take the interpretation the way John takes the interpretation, you must conclude, as he did, that he in fact meant "at the near time this was written".

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

One must completely disregard John's own interpretation, and the interpretation of all the apostles in over 100 corroborating NT passages, to conclude the opposite.

Can you name ANY other Biblical Teaching found in over 100 NT passages that you believe means the exact opposite of what it says? or is the nearness of timing the only teaching found in over 100 NT passages where you hold a polar opposite view to the text itself?

 

[Taodeching]

Hi can you support your position with thought and the scripture

Pretty easy, barely an inconvenience I look at Scripture for what it is and not what I want it to be. Scripture wasn't written to us it was written to Ancient peoples, it maybe for us but not to us. Futurist make the mistake thinking the Scriptures are written to them and taking everything out of it's historical and cultural context, so these wacky ideas are born because they think that current events and Scripture are the same.

Every time something happens people think it's the end and the Bible predicted it. Every pandemic and plague that struck in the past people thought it was the end and even the current one, every current thing that happens that people don't grasp becomes the end. Just like the Ancient ancient people who ascribe a god to everything, Christians ascribe the end times to everything they don't understand or misinterpret like Revelations where John says shortly, not in a thousand years when current events happen

There is only one thing left to happen and that is Acts 1:11