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God granted us our reason and thought.
You just choose to ignore that gift.
That was a quick walk.Absolutely not. The mind that is enlightened by God and set free of wrong thinking is an excellent and valuable instrument.
I quite agree. Yet it seems to me that the church has swung the pendulum to the exact opposite extreme so that sexuality is suffocated. To be honest, I pray on my knees that my future wife (whoever she may be) masturbates. I don’t want her to be afraid of sexuality like so many people in the church seem to be, with their “ew, sex, icky-poo” attitudes. They are either ignorant of the power and God-ordained goodness of our sexuality or they are completely fake in their approach to sexuality.
Yes, it probably is. That doesn't mean that it's better not to, though.I think it's quite possible to not touch and yet not be afraid of sexuality.
Yeah, I put reason above the Bible. Reason is more reliable.
....But what I am trying to say..is how do people KNOW what God is saying to them? how do they know for sure that a feeling is from God and lets say not from the devil? Just how do people know?
I disagree with that. I believe our reason can be flawed, but that depends on the individual. There are tenets and method to reason, and if followed it provides eminently useful results.God made our minds and gave us reason, but since we're all flawed human beings our reason is flawed too.
There is a world of difference between what is logical and what makes "sense". The idea of sense, or common sense, is rooted in subjectivity and casual observation. Common sense is a tool for making quick, passing judgments about simple matters. Sense breaks down when applied to something that really does take a long time to properly understand. It does not apply to everything. Logic is the study of entailment, association, correlation and causation. It is a very in-depth field that takes some time to understand. Furthermore, it operates on premises which must first be established. The supernatural cannot be established, which means that logic cannot be used to evaluate the supernatural.For example, I used to be an agnostic, and several years ago I wrote an essay for philosophy class trying to prove that God doesn't exist. I used my reason for that. My argument was actually quite logical. But just because something makes sense to us (is "logical") doesn't make it true.
Individual reason is, yes, but actual reason (logical study) is a defined field.Our reason is affected by schooling, society, culture, etc...those things are far from perfect.
I do not believe that this is so.I believe that because of the fall, we became separated from God, and our minds 'fell' along with our souls.
Reason does come from God - it is a gift to mankind, and allows us to observe the world around us and to study theology, among other things. Reason is used to study the Bible. You cannot say that our reason is flawed but our interpretation of the Bible is not.The only way our reason could be reliable is if it's united with God, and thus, comes from Him.
The rules of reason do not change upon conversion to Christianity. Spiritual truths aside, being Christian does not mean that you reach radically different conclusions about the world around you. God did not create us to be deceived by our own eyes. If that were true, you would not be able to trust what you read in the Bible.God redeemes the whole person, mind included, but I don't think we would be fully renewed until the Resurrection when we shall be given new bodies. But until then, if we trust in God and are 'in Christ', He would guide us in the right direction. For this, we should put the Holy Spirit first and our minds second, because as the Bible says only the spiritual man can understand spiritual truths.
I do not believe, nor see any cause to believe, that reason is transformed by God in any way. God transforms our souls upon accepting him, not our reason.So I agree with you that reason is a good thing, but only if we let God transform it.
No, I do not believe that is necessarily true. I believe that there are people out there today who understand the nature of the divine as well as (or even better than!) those who lived in biblical times, and I know that there are those who understand the world we live in better.As to the Bible, I believe that it's fully reliable and correct, and inspired by God...but even if you don't believe that, surely you would agree that it was written by better Christians than us who understood God better (like the Apostles), and hence had more wisdom than us.
No, it doesn't. Our minds must be the most reliable thing we have. You use your mind to read the Bible. If your mind's reliability is lower than that of the Bible, then you cannot trust what you read in the Bible any more than the reliability of your mind will allow.This makes it more reliable than our minds.
I don't believe either of those things because I trust the Bible. In fact, neither should you. And neither should anyone. You should trust the Bible because you believe those things. Faith comes first.If we don't trust the Bible, then how can we believe that Jesus is God, or that He died for our sins and rose again?
Yes, that much is true. Faith does help us understand scripture. In my case (and in most Christians' cases) faith has led us to understand that the messages of scripture stand apart from their factual accuracy, and that the inerrancy of the Bible isn't important in light of the spiritual truths within.Our reason does not tell us that, in fact we can't understand how a Man can triumph over death. We can only believe it, and as our minds become renewed by faith, we are able to understand the gospel a little better.
I think this was a message intended to the people of the time, who had the perception that their leaders were wise and intelligent. Jesus was a rebel, you know. The idea that you can always apply scripture to modern times is not a very supportable one.1 Corinthians shows that God's wisdom is different from human wisdom, but if we're saved we are able to understand it better: here's the whole thing, in context:
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Yes, the Bible asks that we believe. But my faith tells me to always question and be on the lookout for incorrect theology. I am never content in my knowledge of the divine, and I do not believe that anyone else should be. We should always strive for a more perfect understanding, even if that means questioning or abandoning closely-held beliefs.So...that's my view on this.God asks that we believe, even if something doesn't make much sense to us right now. It will, sooner or later, as we grow in Christ. And the Bible tells us what to believe.
How are you able to tell whether your conviction comes from God, the media, your society, your church, your peers, your personal guilt, your upbringing or any other factors? Have you spent some time really thinking it over in your mind, or did you start with the conclusion that it must be a sinful conviction and go from there?So relating this to our topic; we should be Spirit-lead to understand God's view on masturbation, and not just rely on our own logic. Since I'm not God, I cant' say for sure which side is 'correct'..it may well be that God tells different things to different people, since He knows what each of us needs. Masturbation may be a sin in some cases, but not in others. However, I stand by my belief that it's wrong, because I feel convicted of this.
This is incredibly sound advice and thinking. Well put.Sorry this question wasn't directed to me, but this is something I've been thinking about too... I've struggled with this for some time, and I asked God that He would help me distinguish His voice from all the other ones. Now, well obviously I'm not perfect at this or anything, but sometimes I just 'know' that it's Him..I can't explain it; it's just a certainty and a sense of peace.
But actually the Bible does tell us a good way to check if something is from God, and that's by its 'fruits'. God would never ever tell us something that makes us feel hatred, or worry, or despair, and His advice would never lead to hatred of other people. The fruits of the Holy Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. "Against such things there is no law"; they are always good. (Galations 5:22-23 ). Test every thought and spirit, by its fruit, and ask God to help you hear His voice....that's what I did, and it seemed to work, although I still have a lot to go. God speaks through our feelings (I don't mean emotions), the Bible, other people, circumstances, etc etc....there are many ways that He communicates to us, I don't want to put God in a box.
God bless!
monica
It's been 44 pages. I'm not sure asking is going to turn anything up.Floatingaxe -
Reading over today's posts I see that you do know how to quote and cite from the Bible.
Now then... about those verses that clearly show that that masturbation is a sin.... can we see them sometime soon?
Floatingaxe said:I will always have an appropriate response. It is you who browbeats. I don't succumb to that.
Bliz said:Now then... about those verses that clearly show that that masturbation is a sin.... can we see them sometime soon?
Sorry this question wasn't directed to me, but this is something I've been thinking about too... I've struggled with this for some time, and I asked God that He would help me distinguish His voice from all the other ones. Now, well obviously I'm not perfect at this or anything, but sometimes I just 'know' that it's Him..I can't explain it; it's just a certainty and a sense of peace.
But actually the Bible does tell us a good way to check if something is from God, and that's by its 'fruits'. God would never ever tell us something that makes us feel hatred, or worry, or despair, and His advice would never lead to hatred of other people. The fruits of the Holy Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. "Against such things there is no law"; they are always good. (Galations 5:22-23 ). Test every thought and spirit, by its fruit, and ask God to help you hear His voice....that's what I did, and it seemed to work, although I still have a lot to go. God speaks through our feelings (I don't mean emotions), the Bible, other people, circumstances, etc etc....there are many ways that He communicates to us, I don't want to put God in a box.
God bless!
monica
Right. Calling people selfish, dumb, and suggesting theyre on the same level as prostitutes is appropriate. Yeah, I can see how that contributes to the discussion. Good job.
Ive asked over and over for her to show how masturbation inherently falls into the category of lust, of the flesh, or lack of self-control. She hasnt responded to any of the many times Ive asked her this. Clearly she has no answer but hey, shell continue to throw Bible verses at you, which mean absolutely nothing until she draws that connection. Its just something Floatingaxe just doesnt seem to understand. Apparently, shed rather make herself feel better by speaking down to others.
Absolutely; the bible would never call anyone a fool; and it would certainly never condemn anyone. . . wait; yegh it would.....? technicly, her explanations are logical connections to the way you all are acting...Right. Calling people “selfish,” “dumb,” and suggesting they’re on the same level as prostitutes is appropriate. Yeah, I can see how that contributes to the discussion. Good job.
well; just speculating. and we have answered you with this before, you simply don't respond. you could compare the aspects of masturbation with that of other sin. then compare how it glorifies God.? namely, compare it to Jesus' temptation in the wilderness.I’ve asked over and over for her to show how masturbation inherently falls into the category of “lust,” “of the flesh,” or “lack of self-control.” She hasn’t responded to any of the many times I’ve asked her this. Clearly she has no answer but hey, she’ll continue to throw Bible verses at you, which mean absolutely nothing until she draws that connection. It’s just something Floatingaxe just doesn’t seem to understand. Apparently, she’d rather make herself feel better by speaking down to others.
Floatingaxe said:Don't talk about me in here. It's rude.
The verses you have been shown ad nauseum all point to the fact that we must maintain purity of thought and behaviour.
Masturbation is a dead giveaway that your thoughts are not under the control of the Holy Spirit and your hands need something worthwhile to do for God.
It is God's will that we lift up holy hands to Him, praising Him with uplifted hands, blessing and bringing healing to others by the laying on of hands and doing good, hard work with our hands, and giving to the needy...all found in scripture.
Doing all those things that God requires with our hands, there is no instruction in scripture to include manipulating our genitals in His name.
Daniel777 said:Absolutely; the bible would never call anyone a fool; and it would certainly never condemn anyone. . . wait; yegh it would.....? technicly, her explanations are logical connections to the way you all are acting...
well; just speculating. and we have answered you with this before, you simply don't respond.
you could compare the aspects of masturbation with that of other sin. then compare how it glorifies God.? namely, compare it to Jesus' temptation in the wilderness.
wow, this is alot since i left.
Absolutely; the bible would never call anyone a fool; and it would certainly never condemn anyone. . . wait; yegh it would.....? technicly, her explanations are logical connections to the way you all are acting...
well; just speculating. and we have answered you with this before, you simply don't respond. you could compare the aspects of masturbation with that of other sin. then compare how it glorifies God.? namely, compare it to Jesus' temptation in the wilderness.
Dannager you are really one to be talking about someone backed into a corner. maby you should read back a few pages. you believe your faith is true. you validate your faith through reason. you do not believe all scripture is inspired by God. your reason is based on constantly changing social trends, and yourself. therefore you admit that your faith is of your own making, and accept only what you feel comfortable with.
logic is no good without knowledge. and believeing any knowledge requires some aspect of faith. your reason should be placed in something absolute else you're just comforting yourself. your faith will always be changing. you base your faith on your logic. you should base logic on your faith.
Explain to me how masturbation inherently hinders these things. If you cant, bringing them up is completely irrelevant.
Floatingaxe said:Using our hands for holy use does not include unhloy uses. If we give of ourselves wholly to serve God, we won't have such idle time to perform idle, and lustful behaviours.
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