What do you mean by "Trinity"?

[Hoghead1]

Eternity is the complete possession of boundless perfection, all at once, without a beginning, succession or end, without any before or after. Only God is eternal and therefore has to be immutable, eternity belongs to God and is part of His essence. As Erose above states time came into existence at Creation, time belongs to the human element.

Time is a continuous sucession of events, movements, changes that can be numbered, calendar, clock etc.

With God everything is in the present.

That amounts to saying that time is a big illusion. If we could see it from God's perspective, there is no time. Time is too real for me to accept that. Also, your concept of eternity does not appeal at all to me. No time, then nothing to look forward to. In fact, you couldn't even move.

 

[hedrick]

That amounts to saying that time is a big illusion. If we could see it from God's perspective, there is no time. Time is too real for me to accept that. Also, your concept of eternity does not appeal at all to me. No time, then nothing to look forward to. In fact, you couldn't even move.

Time could be completely real but God could be outside it. We're stuck in 4 dimensions (or whatever number string theory has today). They're all completely real. It's just that God isn't stuck there. Time is still real, and he can still see it. But he's not limited by it, and from outside 4-space he can see everything "at once."

 

[Hoghead1]

Time could be completely real but God could be outside it. We're stuck in 4 dimensions (or whatever number string theory has today). They're all completely real. It's just that God isn't stuck there. Time is still real, and he can still see it. But he's not limited by it, and from outside 4-space he can see everything "at once."

We have no evidence of any "timeless" space, or anything such as you are talking about. The concept of their being other dimensions does not men they exclude time. If God cannot perceive of time, then obviously God can have no awareness of us creatures who are in time. The only other option is that time is not real. But time appears too real for me to go that route.

 

[Hoghead1]

No, it is not my "thinking" and my "opinion"...but as I said, "It is my witness" and it is what "I know" to be true, that "all scripture is the word of God." But your reasoning and doubt...are your witness. So be it.

Sorry, but the hard evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[ScottA]

Sorry, but the hard evidence suggests otherwise.

Some trust in chariots. But there is no "hard evidence" that was not manifest by the same Spirit whom leads some in all truth, while confounding the wise in their mischief. By the same Spirit, I have given my witness, and it is true.

 

[hedrick]

We have no evidence of any "timeless" space, or anything such as you are talking about. The concept of their being other dimensions does not men they exclude time. If God cannot perceive of time, then obviously God can have no awareness of us creatures who are in time. The only other option is that time is not real. But time appears too real for me to go that route.

What about creatures confined to a sphere or plane? Their two dimensions are real. We can see them. We can even move through them. But we aren’t confined to them as the creatures are.

My response was to the claim that if God is outside time, time is an illusion. I think it’s clear that this claim is false. (Actually the example I just cited would technically suggest that God is at one or more times, but can move through time. Or given omnipresence extended to the 4th dimension, is perhaps omnipresent through time.)

That doesn’t establish that there is in fact a perspective outside time, nor that God is outside time. Just that the idea doesn’t imply that time is an illusion.

Is there evidence for it? We currently have no real information about anything outside our 4 (or whatever) dimensional space-time. But many physicists think it’s unlikely that our universe is alone. Most likely it’s part of a larger system that generates universes. Time is part of our universe’s space-time. That would imply that there’s a perspective that is not within our time. Might it have something like time itself? That’s certainly possible.

Do we have reason to think that God is outside time? Scripture seems to describe him as being within our time. It also seems to describe him as knowing the future. On the other hand, the people who wrote Scripture most likely would not have had any idea that timelessness is possible, so it’s not clear how significant this is. There are plenty of other examples where things are described in accordance with an ancient view of the universe and we now know different.

I am personally undecided. I somewhat prefer a process view, but I think a timeless God, or a God simultaneously present in all times, is logically possible and that Scripture, when understood as we both understand it, doesn’t rule it out.

 

[Hoghead1]

IT is a figure of speech referring to the start of the cosmos - the universe. Even Physicists speak of the "fabric of space-time" that did not exist prior to the so-called "big bang". In the "beginning God created" Genesis 1:1 -- He was already there before the things that He created. He did not evolve from what He created.

The fact that God was "there" before this universe dos not negate the fact that God is eternally creative and had a place a different, earlier universe. Physics actually has no idea what was there before this universe. I posit another universe because God is eternally creative. I believe that God continues to evolve, because God is a social-relational being. God arises out of God's relationship to the universe, just as we arise out of our interactions with others.

 

[Hoghead1]

Some trust in chariots. But there is no "hard evidence" that was not manifest by the same Spirit whom leads some in all truth, while confounding the wise in their mischief. By the same Spirit, I have given my witness, and it is true.

In addition to the fact that the Bible presents an outmoded cosmology, which has been recognized since the 16 century, there are well documented about 100 major contradictions in Scripture, as I pointed out to you before. In addition, there are two "Olds Testaments." There are currently two Bibles. The Catholic Bible, which retained the Apocrypha, and the protestant Bible, which omits it, though the 1611 KJV did include it. Now, if as you assume God is dictating all this, what gives? Did God forget who killed Goliath and so told the scribe for 2 Sam. 21:19 that Elhanan did? Does God maybe want tow different Bibles? Did God want the Johannie Comma added in later and also the ending of Mark? What gives?

 

[Hoghead1]

What about creatures confined to a sphere or plane? Their two dimensions are real. We can see them. We can even move through them. But we aren’t confined to them as the creatures are.

My response was to the claim that if God is outside time, time is an illusion. I think it’s clear that this claim is false. (Actually the example I just cited would technically suggest that God is at one or more times, but can move through time. Or given omnipresence extended to the 4th dimension, is perhaps omnipresent through time.)

That doesn’t establish that there is in fact a perspective outside time, nor that God is outside time. Just that the idea doesn’t imply that time is an illusion.

Is there evidence for it? We currently have no real information about anything outside our 4 (or whatever) dimensional space-time. But many physicists think it’s unlikely that our universe is alone. Most likely it’s part of a larger system that generates universes. Time is part of our universe’s space-time. That would imply that there’s a perspective that is not within our time. Might it have something like time itself? That’s certainly possible.

Do we have reason to think that God is outside time? Scripture seems to describe him as being within our time. It also seems to describe him as knowing the future. On the other hand, the people who wrote Scripture most likely would not have had any idea that timelessness is possible, so it’s not clear how significant this is. There are plenty of other examples where things are described in accordance with an ancient view of the universe and we now know different.

I am personally undecided. I somewhat prefer a process view, but I think a timeless God, or a God simultaneously present in all times, is logically possible and that Scripture, when understood as we both understand it, doesn’t rule it out.

I don't know of an two-dimensional creatures.
Yes, if God is outside time or experiences everything as present, time is an illusion. Essentially this view of God is saying that if we could see it from God's perspective, all is resent, there is not past or future. Time is a big illusion then. "God is Truth, but creatures in time are not true," as Meister Eckhart said. And there are a host of related problems here.

Many blindly assume that Scripture says God knows the future is definite, decided, exactly what will happen. However, this is not the case in all passages. In the case of Sodom, the future if "iffy" for God. Hence, God says, "If I find..." Also, Jer. 18 is relevant here. God first threatens to lower the boom, then waits to see what will happen, before taking any further action.
I think that God does know the future for what it ontologically is, a realm of possibilities, not definite matters of fact. If we have freedom, then it is up to us to decide. God cannot decide for us ahead of time. Until we decide, the future is open-ended for both us and also God. Saying that God knows the future as certain is attributing false knowledge to God.

 

[Hoghead1]

What "Thomas" would that be?

Bishop Eusebius (AD 260/265 – 339/340) included it among a group of books that he believed to be not only spurious, but "the fictions of heretics". It is filled with sayings from gnostic tradition and is not actually a gospel account of anything.

The real Thomas actually knew Christ personally and could have written a very good "Gospel account" of the life and teachings of Christ - were he the author and were it true that no other Gospel texts had been written to that point in time. Matt 28 gives us the Commission given to the Apostles to tell the story of Jesus - thus we have 4 Gospels describing the life and teaching of Christ - not just 1.

Belief in Christ is not based on "a saying" - but on the person - the events in his life that show him to be the promised Messiah - and that show that he died to save mankind from the penalty of sin.

Without that - you don't even have Christianity - all you have is gnosticism's "sayings".

I am referring to St. Thomas Aquinas, also know as Dr. Angelicus. In theology, he is referred to as "Thomas" and his POV is called Thomism. Look, when you ask questions such as this, it is apparent you have little background or read education in theology, to start with. So why don't you do yourself a favor and take some time to read up in theology so that you are better informed in what you have to say?

 

[Hoghead1]

Not true. Time is a measurement of Change. God is eternal and does not change, so there is no time. Time began at the Big Bang, or to use the Biblical, when God said let there be Light!

What is your evidence that God does not change? Change is attributed to God in about 100 biblical passages, such as Gen. 6:6 and Hoeas 11;8.

 

[Hoghead1]

Nope.

Evidence please.

 

[Colter]

In my theology the time status of Paradise and the Trinity is absolute. There is no time as we recon it on paradise. But God functions on different levels of reality, both in time and out of time.

 

[ScottA]

In addition to the fact that the Bible presents an outmoded cosmology, which has been recognized since the 16 century, there are well documented about 100 major contradictions in Scripture, as I pointed out to you before. In addition, there are two "Olds Testaments." There are currently two Bibles. The Catholic Bible, which retained the Apocrypha, and the protestant Bible, which omits it, though the 1611 KJV did include it. Now, if as you assume God is dictating all this, what gives? Did God forget who killed Goliath and so told the scribe for 2 Sam. 21:19 that Elhanan did? Does God maybe want tow different Bibles? Did God want the Johannie Comma added in later and also the ending of Mark? What gives?

There are no contradictions, only misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and intentional confusion.

You are reading media - while the business of God is unseen to the world, and yet, perfect.

 

[Erose]

Evidence please.

Evidence? Encyclopedia of Theology, St. Augustine, Boethius, St Thomas Aquinas, the Bible. I think Bob has already posted those passages from Scripture.

The idea of eternity as being only a form of immortality, is another modern idea, probably from process theology, which as you say has a very different concept of God than the classical/orthodox theologians.


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[Colter]

There are no contradictions, only misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and intentional confusion.

You are reading media - while the business of God is unseen to the world, and yet, perfect.

Ironically each religion that has made a golden calf out of the writings of it's various holy men make that same argument. The glaring errors are in the critics who are a part of a conspiracy.

 

[Hoghead1]

Evidence? Encyclopedia of Theology, St. Augustine, Boethius, St Thomas Aquinas, the Bible. I think Bob has already posted those passages from Scripture.

The idea of eternity as being only a form of immortality, is another modern idea, probably from process theology, which as you say has a very different concept of God than the classical/orthodox theologians.


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I would suggest, then, that you look up these terms in the dictionary. Eternal can mean life without end. Isn't that what we look forward to in Heaven? Also, I would suggest you do a more careful reading of your sources.

 

[Erose]

I would suggest, then, that you look up these terms in the dictionary. Eternal can mean life without end. Isn't that what we look forward to in Heaven? Also, I would suggest you do a more careful reading of your sources.

More careful reading of my sources confirms that my original assessment is correct. Eternity in theology means primarily timelessness.


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[Erose]

We have no evidence of any "timeless" space, or anything such as you are talking about. The concept of their being other dimensions does not men they exclude time. If God cannot perceive of time, then obviously God can have no awareness of us creatures who are in time. The only other option is that time is not real. But time appears too real for me to go that route.

Timeless space would be impossible as space is part of creation, which means that in space time must exist. Only God is eternal and no He doesn't exist in space.

Because God is eternal and exists outside or maybe a better idea is that Hr exists not in the universe has no effect on the "realness" of time.

That line of thought leads one to say because one is not part of a painting that said painting is only an illusion.

The logic just doesn't follow.


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[Hoghead1]

There are no contradictions, only misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and intentional confusion.

You are reading media - while the business of God is unseen to the world, and yet, perfect.

No, I am reading the Bible. I am responding to the fact it presents a flat earth and a geocentric view of teh cosmos. I am also responding to the well-established fact that there are around 100 major contradictions. I believe I already gave you some examples, which I find you ignored. So, can you explain why 2 Sam. 21:10 says that Elhanan killed Goliath? You say there are no contradictions, so let's hear how you can sweep this one away.