What do you mean by "Trinity"?

[Hoghead1]

There is no beginning in Eternity nor is there a "when" either.

There may not be any beginning to eternity, a period when there was no eternity. But eternity is time. There is a past, present, and future, in eternity. Time has no beginning.

 

[Robert Lindstrom]

This "in the beginning" (John 1:1) would be the same as saying "before time and space began" -- eternity past. Before anything was created, the un-created God existed as three Divine Persons. That is why they said "Let US make man in OUR image." Elohim (God) is a uni-plural word which already reveals the Trinity in Gen 1:1---quoted by Hedrick

I disagree with this because Genesis 1:26 says

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27 says:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

If God is three persons in heaven then why did God go singular in verse 27? God created man in His own image? Not their own image.

Where in the Bible does it ever say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost? I cannot find it, how about you?

Where does it say that the Father said to the Son "go die for the sin of the world"? I cannot find it.

There is no such thing as an eternal Son of God. There is no scripture for that anywhere. The Son of God did not exist until 2,000 years ago.

 

[Hoghead1]

This "in the beginning" (John 1:1) would be the same as saying "before time and space began" -- eternity past. Before anything was created, the un-created God existed as three Divine Persons. That is why they said "Let US make man in OUR image." Elohim (God) is a uni-plural word which already reveals the Trinity in Gen 1:1---quoted by Hedrick

I disagree with this because Genesis 1:26 says

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27 says:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

If God is three persons in heaven then why did God go singular in verse 27? God created man in His own image? Not their own image.

Where in the Bible does it ever say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost? I cannot find it, how about you?

Where does it say that the Father said to the Son "go die for the sin of the world"? I cannot find it.

There is no such thing as an eternal Son of God. There is no scripture for that anywhere. The Son of God did not exist until 2,000 years ago.

The Bible does speak f God's Spirit. Now surely God's Spirit is God. There are many biblical passages that point to teheTrinity. Read the opening of the Book of John.

 

[Colter]

We won't become eternal, but immortal. After our resurrection, we will still have our physical bodies, physical objects exist in time, eternity is outside of time. We will always exist in time.


Jesus or should we say the Son, has always had the glory of being God.

My point was that when we achieve eternal life we will still be conscious of a past, of a sequence of events.

My understanding is that the Son of God who incarnate on earth and given the name Jesus is conscious of being a Son, having a Father and being a distinct personality reality apart from his divine parents. He is a chip off the ole block. As such he is unified in divinity and purpose with his paradise Father. As a creator Son he had a beginning while the Paradise Trinity is existential.

 

[Erose]

Eternal means immortal, in theology.

Nope.

 

[Erose]

There may not be any beginning to eternity, a period when there was no eternity. But eternity is time. There is a past, present, and future, in eternity. Time has no beginning.

Not true. Time is a measurement of Change. God is eternal and does not change, so there is no time. Time began at the Big Bang, or to use the Biblical, when God said let there be Light!

 

[BobRyan]

I would strongly suggest you study this matter further. You are way, way off. You claim that "being" and "person" are separate concepts, for example. But that was never the case in theology. If you go back and read Thomas, you will find he affirms "person" as the highest form of "being." Also, you should look carefully at this concept of teh Trinity. He makes it very clear the Trinity refers to internal relationships within the mind or personality of God, not three separate individuals or persons in our sense of the terms. The Father stands for God. The Son stands for God's self-knowledge. The Spirit stands for God's love of his self-knowledge. Read or reread Ques. 33 and 34 in his "Summa."

What "Thomas" would that be?

Bishop Eusebius (AD 260/265 – 339/340) included it among a group of books that he believed to be not only spurious, but "the fictions of heretics". It is filled with sayings from gnostic tradition and is not actually a gospel account of anything.

The real Thomas actually knew Christ personally and could have written a very good "Gospel account" of the life and teachings of Christ - were he the author and were it true that no other Gospel texts had been written to that point in time. Matt 28 gives us the Commission given to the Apostles to tell the story of Jesus - thus we have 4 Gospels describing the life and teaching of Christ - not just 1.

Belief in Christ is not based on "a saying" - but on the person - the events in his life that show him to be the promised Messiah - and that show that he died to save mankind from the penalty of sin.

Without that - you don't even have Christianity - all you have is gnosticism's "sayings".

 

[BobRyan]

There may not be any beginning to eternity, a period when there was no eternity. But eternity is time. There is a past, present, and future, in eternity. Time has no beginning.

IT is a figure of speech referring to the start of the cosmos - the universe. Even Physicists speak of the "fabric of space-time" that did not exist prior to the so-called "big bang". In the "beginning God created" Genesis 1:1 -- He was already there before the things that He created. He did not evolve from what He created.

 

[Colter]

What "Thomas" would that be?

Bishop Eusebius (AD 260/265 – 339/340) included it among a group of books that he believed to be not only spurious, but "the fictions of heretics". It is filled with sayings from gnostic tradition and is not actually a gospel account of anything.

The real Thomas actually knew Christ personally and could have written a very good "Gospel account" of the life and teachings of Christ - were he the author and were it true that no other Gospel texts had been written to that point in time. Matt 28 gives us the Commission given to the Apostles to tell the story of Jesus - thus we have 4 Gospels describing the life and teaching of Christ - not just 1.

Belief in Christ is not based on "a saying" - but on the person - the events in his life that show him to be the promised Messiah - and that show that he died to save mankind from the penalty of sin.

Without that - you don't even have Christianity - all you have is gnosticism's "sayings".

God doesn't write books, for what age would he write them to? As the children of God evolve in their understanding of the cosmos, of spiritual and intellectual truth, the gospel must be restated anew in the lives of believers. If Jesus left any writings they would be even more of a fetish then the writings of the holy men who created, edited and redacted the Bible books. What might be appropriate for one age would be inadequate for a more enlightened age. So Jesus stuck to liberating spiritual truths instead of doctrines in the original good news gospel. But true to form man reestablished the evil of the Sanhedrin in institutionalized Christendom.

 

[ScottA]

Well, that is your thinking and your opinion. However, it can and has been seriously questioned. In my previous post, I explained some of the major reasons why.

No, it is not my "thinking" and my "opinion"...but as I said, "It is my witness" and it is what "I know" to be true, that "all scripture is the word of God." But your reasoning and doubt...are your witness. So be it.

 

[mikpat]

Eternity is the complete possession of boundless perfection, all at once, without a beginning, succession or end, without any before or after. Only God is eternal and therefore has to be immutable, eternity belongs to God and is part of His essence. As Erose above states time came into existence at Creation, time belongs to the human element.

Time is a continuous sucession of events, movements, changes that can be numbered, calendar, clock etc.

With God everything is in the present.

 

[Colter]

Eternity is the complete possession of boundless perfection, all at once, without a beginning, succession or end, without any before or after. Only God is eternal and therefore has to be immutable, eternity belongs to God and is part of His essence. As Erose above states time came into existence at Creation, time belongs to the human element.

Time is a continuous sucession of events, movements, changes that can be numbered, calendar, clock etc.

With God everything is in the present.

In my understanding the Trinity is eternal on eternal paradise. The Father delegated creative powers and authority in his divine Son aka Jesus Christ who in turn created our local universe groupings of the material creation. Christ has a Father and Christ is a Father of our world. We are in effect grandchildren.

So Christ is post Trinity but pre creation of our world. The question is, when was Son eventuated if "when" is even the appropriate term.

 

[ScottA]

So Christ is post Trinity but pre creation of our world. The question is, when was Son eventuated if "when" is even the appropriate term.

If you first take the "I am" out of Christ, there is no putting it back to satisfy your understanding. "I am" is eternal.

 

[Colter]

If you first take the "I am" out of Christ, there is no putting it back to satisfy your understanding. "I am" is eternal.

I would say that is true of the divinity of Christ, but just as man has personality from the Father, Christ Michael came into being at some point in the eternal past. It's a mystery.

 

[ScottA]

I would say that is true of the divinity of Christ, but just as man has personality from the Father, Christ Michael came into being at some point in the eternal past. It's a mystery.

If it is then an admitted mystery, be careful not to make claims of certainty.

But it need not be a mystery, we simply need to take to heart just what "eternity" means and is. And also take to heart that, the moment we put a timeline to any of this, it is likely wrong and based on pure conjecture.

 

[Erose]

I would say that is true of the divinity of Christ, but just as man has personality from the Father, Christ Michael came into being at some point in the eternal past. It's a mystery.

Are you a Jehovah Witness?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Robert Lindstrom]

The Bible does speak f God's Spirit. Now surely God's Spirit is God. There are many biblical passages that point to teheTrinity. Read the opening of the Book of John.

I understand, I was a trinity believer. To the natural look of things in the Bible, its going to look like there are three literal persons in heaven. But if I dig deep in the Word, I will see things differently.

For instance Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 seem to contradict each other. To the natural man, it is a contradiction.

This is when a person has to seek God out with all of his or her heart and ask for the truth and God will reveal it to that person.
Because we know that there is no contradiction in the Word of God.

Mat_5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In 1:27, His is singular. What did God mean then by "let us" in verse 1:26?

Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

That "us" is His attributes. Not persons.

When creating man, He had an attribute of "love" come forward. If God did not send forth the attribute of love then we could not love.

Same way with wisdom. Another attribute of God.

Joy, peace, understanding. All the attributes of God came forward and made man.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa 44:9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
Isa 44:10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Isa 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.
Isa 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.


So according to these scriptures, there is no other god but One God.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

not two or three.

Exo_34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Why would God have two other gods in heaven with Him if He is a Jealous God and will not allow any other God before Him?

 

[ScottA]

I understand, I was a trinity believer. To the natural look of things in the Bible, its going to look like there are three literal persons in heaven. But if I dig deep in the Word, I will see things differently.

For instance Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 seem to contradict each other. To the natural man, it is a contradiction.

This is when a person has to seek God out with all of his or her heart and ask for the truth and God will reveal it to that person.
Because we know that there is no contradiction in the Word of God.

Mat_5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In 1:27, His is singular. What did God mean then by "let us" in verse 1:26?

Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

That "us" is His attributes. Not persons.

When creating man, He had an attribute of "love" come forward. If God did not send forth the attribute of love then we could not love.

Same way with wisdom. Another attribute of God.

Joy, peace, understanding. All the attributes of God came forward and made man.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa 44:9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
Isa 44:10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Isa 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.
Isa 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.


So according to these scriptures, there is no other god but One God.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

not two or three.

Exo_34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Why would God have two other gods in heaven with Him if He is a Jealous God and will not allow any other God before Him?

Very good. Still, if I were to call you Sir on the job, and Bob on your day off - neither would be incorrect.

Likewise, it is not wrong to refer to our One God as - not three different persons - but as different in title.

The same would be true of the gifts of the spirit... Are they not One spirit? But when we say Prophet or Preacher, they are indeed two persons, but One spirit.

So, then, if we are to know God in His manifold presence - it should be no mystery that, He is all in all.

 

[Colter]

Are you a Jehovah Witness?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, but I do agree with the JW's on the name Michael as the heavenly name for Jesus.

 

[Hoghead1]

I understand, I was a trinity believer. To the natural look of things in the Bible, its going to look like there are three literal persons in heaven. But if I dig deep in the Word, I will see things differently.

For instance Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 seem to contradict each other. To the natural man, it is a contradiction.

This is when a person has to seek God out with all of his or her heart and ask for the truth and God will reveal it to that person.
Because we know that there is no contradiction in the Word of God.

Mat_5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In 1:27, His is singular. What did God mean then by "let us" in verse 1:26?

Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

That "us" is His attributes. Not persons.

When creating man, He had an attribute of "love" come forward. If God did not send forth the attribute of love then we could not love.

Same way with wisdom. Another attribute of God.

Joy, peace, understanding. All the attributes of God came forward and made man.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa 44:9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
Isa 44:10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Isa 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.
Isa 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.


So according to these scriptures, there is no other god but One God.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

not two or three.

Exo_34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Why would God have two other gods in heaven with Him if He is a Jealous God and will not allow any other God before Him?

I certainly agree that the Trinity points to different aspects of one mind, one personality, not three individual ones. However, I do feel Genesis is a veiled reference to residuals of polytheism, which the Israelites ere prone to.