What do you like and dislike about Fantasy?

[catzetier]

names that i cannot pronounce.
ok, fine, english is not the 'universal' language... but, there is a difference between being creative and thththsseithshheiis teh maagneephissent .

Oh dear. Haven't we all come across a book like that? The only one I think I would ever appreciate would be Walter Moers' The 13 1/2 Lives of Captain Bluebear... if I ever get round to reading it (apparently it meanders something chronic, worse than Rumo, and I only barely managed to stay with that one). It has names like Klapaan Kapplakaan Planplacklaklann and Chachcherachchech Chechchachcherachchach Scharch, because the people who have these names follow strict rules which were laid down by a madman. They also go into a sulk for days on end if you so much as mispronounce a single syllable.

If you're so inclined, you could take this as an indictment of fantasy authors who routinely practice the inducing of sore throats and tied tongues on their poor long-suffering readers.

 

[keith99]

Oh dear. Haven't we all come across a book like that? The only one I think I would ever appreciate would be Walter Moers' The 13 1/2 Lives of Captain Bluebear... if I ever get round to reading it (apparently it meanders something chronic, worse than Rumo, and I only barely managed to stay with that one). It has names like Klapaan Kapplakaan Planplacklaklann and Chachcherachchech Chechchachcherachchach Scharch, because the people who have these names follow strict rules which were laid down by a madman. They also go into a sulk for days on end if you so much as mispronounce a single syllable.

If you're so inclined, you could take this as an indictment of fantasy authors who routinely practice the inducing of sore throats and tied tongues on their poor long-suffering readers.

It depends if they are doing it well or poorly.

Some cases where it is done well that come to mind are:

Tolkien (Where characters often have at least 2 names and some such as Fangorn/Treebeard have a name that is so long we never see any but the start of it).

Niven in his "Known Space" series where the Kitzen, a catlike race have strange names that fit! They remind one of a cat puring out a name. I think other races have varying names, one instantly knows the race by the name.

I do not see this as a problem when things fit.

BUT the other side is many weak writers seem to pick random poorly created strange names and thingk it helps create a sense of thigns being different. It usually fails and when the name is all that is strange it sticks out like a sore thumb and is annoying.

 

[mog144]

I am currently working on a fantasy world, and I was just wondering what people - Christians mostly - like or don't like about the Fantasy Genre. What would you change, remove, or add?
Personally, I would add more detail and decision - just to name a few.

What are your thoughts?

I know it's an old question but I'd like to reply. There are problems with any sort of fantasy or anything that is not real. Fantasy desensitizes the mind and destroys all sense of reality. This is one of many, satan's tools to deceive the world by depraving our minds so that we can no longer understand truth, we will only think that we do and fall for false doctrine.

 

[catzetier]

I know it's an old question but I'd like to reply. There are problems with any sort of fantasy or anything that is not real. Fantasy desensitizes the mind and destroys all sense of reality. This is one of many, satan's tools to deceive the world by depraving our minds so that we can no longer understand truth, we will only think that we do and fall for false doctrine.

So - what do you think about Narnia, where Aslan the lion is a blatant Christ figure? Aslan helped me to fall in love with Jesus and appreciate what he did... not only the substitutionary sacrifice for sins that's in Wardrobe, but also him singing Narnia into being and then taking all who believed in him to heaven at the end. What of Jostein Gaarder's "The Christmas Mystery", which talks openly about the birth of Christ and the power of God to do literally anything, including taking a little girl back in time? Tolkien called Christianity the "true myth" and converted C S Lewis. We're wired for stories, and many fantasies sing along with the Bible. Narnia. The Ransom trilogy. The Lord of the Rings. The Christmas Mystery. Elizabeth Goudge's "The Little White Horse". The Princess and Curdie, The Wise Woman - both fantasy, both by George Macdonald, who was a Christian minster. Those would be the obvious ones - Little White Horse even beats you over the head with it (surprisingly, these George Macdonald stories don't). Then there's stuff like Peter Beagle's "The Last Unicorn" - on one level, about love and its power over death, but with a style that riffs between utter beauty and farcical comedy. A main theme of Harry Potter is sacrificial love and its power to defeat death (and yes I know it has magic in it but so do Tolkien and Lewis for pete's sake). And this isn't even getting into all the fiction stories out there that are not fantasy but still sing along with Christ.

Imagination is a gift. And like any gift it can be used to glorify God... or not. There are some horrendous books out there - R L Stine, for instance. Yuck. But if your opinion is that I should throw Narnia out with the dross - Narnia, which was partially responsible for opening my heart to Christ - Narnia, which has one of the most glorious, wonderful, beautiful depictions of God I've ever encountered...

 

[LeoWyatt]

There's nothing I don't like about Fantasy.

 

[keith99]

So - what do you think about Narnia, where Aslan the lion is a blatant Christ figure? Aslan helped me to fall in love with Jesus and appreciate what he did... not only the substitutionary sacrifice for sins that's in Wardrobe, but also him singing Narnia into being and then taking all who believed in him to heaven at the end. What of Jostein Gaarder's "The Christmas Mystery", which talks openly about the birth of Christ and the power of God to do literally anything, including taking a little girl back in time? Tolkien called Christianity the "true myth" and converted C S Lewis. We're wired for stories, and many fantasies sing along with the Bible. Narnia. The Ransom trilogy. The Lord of the Rings. The Christmas Mystery. Elizabeth Goudge's "The Little White Horse". The Princess and Curdie, The Wise Woman - both fantasy, both by George Macdonald, who was a Christian minster. Those would be the obvious ones - Little White Horse even beats you over the head with it (surprisingly, these George Macdonald stories don't). Then there's stuff like Peter Beagle's "The Last Unicorn" - on one level, about love and its power over death, but with a style that riffs between utter beauty and farcical comedy. A main theme of Harry Potter is sacrificial love and its power to defeat death (and yes I know it has magic in it but so do Tolkien and Lewis for pete's sake). And this isn't even getting into all the fiction stories out there that are not fantasy but still sing along with Christ.

Imagination is a gift. And like any gift it can be used to glorify God... or not. There are some horrendous books out there - R L Stine, for instance. Yuck. But if your opinion is that I should throw Narnia out with the dross - Narnia, which was partially responsible for opening my heart to Christ - Narnia, which has one of the most glorious, wonderful, beautiful depictions of God I've ever encountered...

If I had to classify "The Screwtape Letters" I'd have to go with Fantasy. I'll bet I can get up to a good half dozen of the works of Lewis that fall into that category that are quite Christian, that is aside from Narnia.

And for that matter the post you are responding to is so broad about 'not real' that it includes all fiction.

What a bland world that poster desires. Come to think of it rather like Hell in "The Great Divorce".

 

[Paladin Dave]

Agreed, it sounds like quite a bland world indeed. Keith and Cat about summed up my feelings on the matter. God gave us great imaginations, and to let them go to waste is a terrible shame. Besides. It's a terribly convenient sort of argument, saying that fantasy erodes the mind until reality and fiction become indiscernible, because you can just accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you of suffering from said corruption, right? I think that anyone who fears fiction or fantasy in that regard is the only sort of person with a tenuous grip on reality. But, if that's the case, I suppose they're right to shun it.

EDIT:

I've gone already, but I want to contribute something that'll actually fit the topic.

Something I like about fantasy:

Gender equality is more possible/tangible in some fantasy realms, even if it's not universal. EG, in Dragon Age: Origins women in Ferelden could join the military, earn land and hold titles just as men could. But if you play a female Grey Warden the Qunari party member you can recruit eventually asks you, "Are you a Grey Warden, or are you a woman?" A response that you're both earns, "Nonsense. Women do not fight." because of his culture's rigid stratification.

Something I dislike:

When the above becomes "YEAH, women in skimpy clothes kick lots and lots of butt and make out with eachother!" More along the lines of objectification than empowerment. Conversely, I also dislike it when historical gender inequality is used as an excuse to greatly exaggerate it in the fantasy setting. An example of this would be what I've heard of the Gor setting, or the FATAL roleplaying system. ...Which I must recommend no one look up. What's seen cannot be unseen, I'm dead serious. The creator of that game's only outrage at it being called "The date rape game" was the date part.

However, an example of a setting NOT falling into that trap is Warhammer Fantasy. There is some inequality in the human lands, from what I understand, but it's not completely unsurpassable, and other cultures tend to differ a bit. But it's not like they made it so to capitalize on the oppression of women and make a spectacle of it.

 

[Solomon Kane]

One thing that has gotten on my nerves, lately, is the number of reactionary characters presented in fantasy.
You know the type. Some poor farmer's son, noble's kid, or other teenager discovers that he. or she, is the heir of some secret. Or their homeland gets invaded, the new ruler does not like them or their family. And now they must go on a quest to reclaim their birthright, save the kingdom, meet the love of their life, or claim their place on the throne.

Yes, variations on this theme do exist. But no matter how much the writer may try to create a setting ful of wonder and menace, the story still falls into the rut. IMO, the only way to change this is to start the story with a different character foundation.

How about a character who leaves home because he is tired of being a farmer. He'd rather see the world the so joins a group of mercenaries that are traveling through the area.
Or he decides to leave because his trist with the mayor's daughter has resulted in a little squealing surprise.
Better yet, forget the naive teenager setting off for an adventure.

How about a prisoner, despised and waiting execution. He, or she, manages to escape and the rest of the story dealing with them trying to survive in a harsh and horrible world while keeping a step ahead of bounty hunters and the Imperial law.

What this all boils down to is that I tired of seeing so many fantasy novels with cookie cutter characters and warmed over concepts.
I want a main character that I want to read about because their motivations are purely selfish and their higher nature comes about more by accident then because they are 'good' by nature.

 

[catzetier]

One thing that has gotten on my nerves, lately, is the number of reactionary characters presented in fantasy.
You know the type. Some poor farmer's son, noble's kid, or other teenager discovers that he, or she, is the heir of some secret. Or their homeland gets invaded, the new ruler does not like them or their family. And now they must go on a quest to reclaim their birthright, save the kingdom, meet the love of their life, or claim their place on the throne.

Yes, variations on this theme do exist. But no matter how much the writer may try to create a setting ful of wonder and menace, the story still falls into the rut. IMO, the only way to change this is to start the story with a different character foundation.

How about a character who leaves home because he is tired of being a farmer. He'd rather see the world the so joins a group of mercenaries that are traveling through the area.
Or he decides to leave because his trist with the mayor's daughter has resulted in a little squealing surprise.
Better yet, forget the naive teenager setting off for an adventure.

How about a prisoner, despised and waiting execution. He, or she, manages to escape and the rest of the story dealing with them trying to survive in a harsh and horrible world while keeping a step ahead of bounty hunters and the Imperial law.

What this all boils down to is that I'm tired of seeing so many fantasy novels with cookie cutter characters and warmed over concepts.
I want a main character that I want to read about because their motivations are purely selfish and their higher nature comes about more by accident then because they are 'good' by nature.

Sounds like the subgenre you're sick of is "quest fantasy" (as the name suggests, a story where the heroes go on a quest to achieve something) and by extension the character types that most often populate that particular subgenre - the Heroic Orphan (Harry Potter), the Unlikely Hero (Bilbo Baggins) etc.

So... have you ever read fantasy that isn't quest fantasy? Not so many authors do this (probably because it's harder to do; you have to have a different sort of aim for the story rather than the simple find it/recapture it/destroy it/put right the ancient wrong/whatever), so it's correspondingly harder to find, but the ones that manage to pull it off are really good.

Peter Beagle's short story "Salt Wine", for example. If you want a main character who's driven by selfish motivations...! The narrator's best friend saves the life of a merman due to an old legend that says that if you save a merman's life, he's bound over to give you all the treasure he's collected. The thing is that the legend was just a little wrong... not all the treasure, but the one thing they treasure most in the world... and what that particular merman treasured most in the world was the recipe for salt wine...

Actually, Peter Beagle does this quite a lot. I've read every fantasy of his that I've managed to get my hands on, and off the top of my head I could only name maybe five that are quest fantasies. (And those spoof it by repeatedly leaning on the fourth wall - "Last Unicorn", or slant it strangely - "The Last Song of Sirit Byar").

If you're sick of cardboard cut-out questing characters, give Peter Beagle a shot. Really. Just perhaps don't start with "Last Unicorn" or the sequel "Two Hearts" - the latter is one of his rare straightforward quest fantasies, and the former... well, let's just say that it's wonderful and riffs between utter beauty and farce, but the fourth-wall leaning isn't heavy enough to collapse the quest structure or characters entirely.

 

[keith99]

Sounds like the subgenre you're sick of is "quest fantasy" (as the name suggests, a story where the heroes go on a quest to achieve something) and by extension the character types that most often populate that particular subgenre - the Heroic Orphan (Harry Potter), the Unlikely Hero (Bilbo Baggins) etc.

So... have you ever read fantasy that isn't quest fantasy? Not so many authors do this (probably because it's harder to do; you have to have a different sort of aim for the story rather than the simple find it/recapture it/destroy it/put right the ancient wrong/whatever), so it's correspondingly harder to find, but the ones that manage to pull it off are really good.

Peter Beagle's short story "Salt Wine", for example. If you want a main character who's driven by selfish motivations...! The narrator's best friend saves the life of a merman due to an old legend that says that if you save a merman's life, he's bound over to give you all the treasure he's collected. The thing is that the legend was just a little wrong... not all the treasure, but the one thing they treasure most in the world... and what that particular merman treasured most in the world was the recipe for salt wine...

Actually, Peter Beagle does this quite a lot. I've read every fantasy of his that I've managed to get my hands on, and off the top of my head I could only name maybe five that are quest fantasies. (And those spoof it by repeatedly leaning on the fourth wall - "Last Unicorn", or slant it strangely - "The Last Song of Sirit Byar").

If you're sick of cardboard cut-out questing characters, give Peter Beagle a shot. Really. Just perhaps don't start with "Last Unicorn" or the sequel "Two Hearts" - the latter is one of his rare straightforward quest fantasies, and the former... well, let's just say that it's wonderful and riffs between utter beauty and farce, but the fourth-wall leaning isn't heavy enough to collapse the quest structure or characters entirely.

I may look some of those up.

I'm more a Science Fictioon guy, but that deos not mean I do like good fantasy or that I'm poorly versed in fantasy.

The poster you responded to asked for a story about purely selfish people.

A few come to mind.

One I have not read and that has come up as a bad book (It seems in large part because it fits the nasty people part all too well) is The Sad Tale of the Brothers Grosbart.

For a nice collection of thieves, exiles, murderers and other scum it is hard ot beat Theives World. I'd reccoment the first 3 in the series. After that things fell apart in my opinion.

Thieves World was edited by Robert Asprin who also wrote the Myth series. One might wonder how that might fit in the view of the poster yuo wer responding to. It is sort of kind of in the quest mode. And our unexpected hero is young. But he is a young thief! And we soon find out his companion is a Pervert! (Or is that Pervect?).

Be warned where Asprin has been there will be puns. The Myth Series means many. Thieves world, which is a series of short stories, has some stories with, some without and a few where the whole point of a story is a pun.

I'd also point to Raymond E. Feist. Most famous for the Riftwar series. But I started with the Empire series (which is related). I highly reccoment Doughter of Empire. I fear I might say too much, but I'll take that risk. The heroine is a female in a male dominated society who fights back. But she does not become manly woman to do it. She does NOT become the great fighter. But she sure becomes someone I would not want to cross. In short she stays female in that society and while still very feminine becomes someone to be reconed with.

Finally for somethgin different. The Harry Dresden series by Jim Butcher. Urban fantasy. Very objectionable to those who object to fantasy set in our world, for it truely is our world. Quite different. There is far more than a touch of the point yuo made about the story "Salt Wine". At the very core is the thought that the traditional Fantasy themes reflect 'reality' but are either a bit off or incomplete.

EDIT:

I'm going to add Glory Road and Magic Inc. both by Robert Heinlein. I think both qualify as fantasy. Glory Road could be considered a 'quest' story. But the hero is hardly unexpected, except to himself. One who has been groomed on a savage planet since birht is hardly an unexpected hero.

BTW Glory Road is a great book to see if someone really gets it. The most common complaint by reviewers is the entire point of the book. Take away the complaint and it is an adventure most suitable for horny 12 year olds.

 

[keith99]

I'm going to step back the the original question and give one thing I dislike.

That is that we keep trying to draw a line that describes where Fantasy ends.

With that I'm going to pose a question. Are "Darkover" and "Pern" fantasy?

Each is set in a worls where men arrived by spaceship. Very Science Fiction Space ships. But the first books published in either series seem far more fantasy. For Darkover a sword and sorcery world where the sorcery is mor emind power using 'magic' stones. Pern a world where fire breathing flying dragons work in concert with men. (Pern may well be the origin of the idea of Dragons that bond to an individual. It predates any other stories I can think of right now).

Oh and by the end there is a 'scientific' explaination for the core of both worlds.

So is this Fantasy or not?

 

[IzzyPop]

One thing that has gotten on my nerves, lately, is the number of reactionary characters presented in fantasy.
You know the type. Some poor farmer's son, noble's kid, or other teenager discovers that he. or she, is the heir of some secret. Or their homeland gets invaded, the new ruler does not like them or their family. And now they must go on a quest to reclaim their birthright, save the kingdom, meet the love of their life, or claim their place on the throne.

Yes, variations on this theme do exist. But no matter how much the writer may try to create a setting ful of wonder and menace, the story still falls into the rut. IMO, the only way to change this is to start the story with a different character foundation.

How about a character who leaves home because he is tired of being a farmer. He'd rather see the world the so joins a group of mercenaries that are traveling through the area.
Or he decides to leave because his trist with the mayor's daughter has resulted in a little squealing surprise.
Better yet, forget the naive teenager setting off for an adventure.

How about a prisoner, despised and waiting execution. He, or she, manages to escape and the rest of the story dealing with them trying to survive in a harsh and horrible world while keeping a step ahead of bounty hunters and the Imperial law.

What this all boils down to is that I tired of seeing so many fantasy novels with cookie cutter characters and warmed over concepts.
I want a main character that I want to read about because their motivations are purely selfish and their higher nature comes about more by accident then because they are 'good' by nature.

There is tons of new fantasy that avoids the tropes you mention. Take Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. The characters are so morally ambiguous that by the end I wasn't sure if the main characters were the good guys or the villains. Scott Lynch has Lies of Locke Lamora features a crew of con men. Think Oceans 11 with swords and sorcery. The Steel Remains by Richard K. Morgan is currently one of my favorites with Ringil being a pretty selfish guy that tries to do the right thing (one major caveat for this board though, Ringil is openly homosexual).

 

[Orange Kitten Bob]

Magic neutralizing technology. I prefer worlds in which magic and modern stuff both work.

My other pet fantasy peeve is portraying an Amazon as anything but a female hoplite.

 

[Paladin Dave]

As in, when they do those things, you don't like them? Little unclear on the Amazon part.

 

[keith99]

There is tons of new fantasy that avoids the tropes you mention. Take Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. The characters are so morally ambiguous that by the end I wasn't sure if the main characters were the good guys or the villains. Scott Lynch has Lies of Locke Lamora features a crew of con men. Think Oceans 11 with swords and sorcery. The Steel Remains by Richard K. Morgan is currently one of my favorites with Ringil being a pretty selfish guy that tries to do the right thing (one major caveat for this board though, Ringil is openly homosexual).

You got me thinking. Thieves World is hardly new. Yet I cannot recall any of the tropes complained about there for the first 3 books in the series.

There is a prince, but hardly one abandoning his position, instead one sent into a psuedo excile to keep him safe from hte intrigues of the capital. Thiefs and swindelers abound. And the more respectable folks are not all that nice either.

Lieber's Swords series was created long ago stays well away from thecomplained about tropes too.

 

[generalbreadbasket]

I like when fantasy reveals a joyous place or atmosphere in the text, and sometimes it helps you to see things in ordinary life in a different way, or highlight things in life one didn't notice before. I don't like the dabbling in sorcery and the like though.

 

[IzzyPop]

You got me thinking. Thieves World is hardly new. Yet I cannot recall any of the tropes complained about there for the first 3 books in the series.

There is a prince, but hardly one abandoning his position, instead one sent into a psuedo excile to keep him safe from hte intrigues of the capital. Thiefs and swindelers abound. And the more respectable folks are not all that nice either.

Lieber's Swords series was created long ago stays well away from thecomplained about tropes too.

Thieves' World. Nice. Loved me some Hanse Shadowspawn. It looked like Lynn Abbey was going to reboot the series a few years back but there was one book and then nothing since.

 

[keith99]

Thieves' World. Nice. Loved me some Hanse Shadowspawn. It looked like Lynn Abbey was going to reboot the series a few years back but there was one book and then nothing since.

Was the attempt short stories that could stand alone like the first 3 book or like the the later books where it semed like if you had no tread the previous book (and read it recently) you were lost?

 

[IzzyPop]

Was the attempt short stories that could stand alone like the first 3 book or like the the later books where it semed like if you had no tread the previous book (and read it recently) you were lost?

It was a stand-alone novel called Sanctuary that was set several years after the original series. It was a nice refresher of the major plot points of the series and introduced a few new faces but I guess it never took off.

I like the idea of mosaic series but they never seem to work. TW was only good for the first half and Wildcards has been trundling along for over two decades now and only the first 4 or 5 were worth the effort. Phillip Jose Farmer tried a six book series a few years back with each book written by a different author and it was awful.

 

[Rion]

Yes I know! It seems like everthing has been thought of! Nothing new under the sun, I guess...

But knowing that, the trick, of course, becomes to say something - even if it has already been said plenty of times before - in a different way. So that's what I'm working on. I think I have been able to do it in some aspects, but it seems though that it is impossible to 'disguise' many things. Like, evil is always evil, (I don't go much for they 'grey area' stuff) and you're always going to be fighting it.

Anyway, I see you are a creative writer, how do you avoid cliches?

There is a difference between a trope and a cliche. I like visiting Home Page - Television Tropes & Idioms because they give me ideas to play with. "If X is the common trope I recognize in what I read, how can I play against expectations, or add a new twist on it?"