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what do you know about Islam?

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morningstar2651

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Islam and Christianity are closely related, as are the Bible and the Quran. In my opinion, you can't attack one without attacking the other.

This is why I think it's silly when a Christian criticizes the Quran for being violent (or a Muslim criticizes the Bible for the same reason).
 
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elwill

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I'm seriously not trying to be mean to anyone or anything, really...and I really don't think I'm better than anyone else...but I have to ask something...

let's just say Muhammad was intelligent in a lot of things...and said many wise things...and let's say that at one time he ordered a group of people who left his religion to be killed...



just trying to give a scenario...

if so...doesn't it cast even an infinitesimal shadow of doubt as to the nature of a person who would allow one human being to kill another human being because the 2nd human being could not feel any longer an allegience to the first human being's faith? no one's perfect guys...

i gave you the view of muslims about this issue from all sides , and gave you reasons for each view to make your conclusions by yourself
this issue is doubtfull between muslims scholars , and i really saw in the internet muslims apostates without to put in death , and most muslims countries not kill the apostates

anyway you must deal with old testament and with Mosas (pbuh) before blaming islam

Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
Also let us look at Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

I'm seriously not trying to denigrate anyone's faith because I myself KNOW how painful it is for my faith to be insulted so I don't want to do this...I just can't help but wonder...does the fact that he ordered someone who left Islam (even if it was at one time) to be killed at least make you sit down and wonder if this kind of action is OK with you?

no problem , i can understand , there is no offend in your question at all

you must ask yourself why the prophet ordered someone who left islam to be killed first
what happend by jews was treason for the prophet
(pbuh) and muslims.
the prophet made this command not for thier apostate , but because it was thier means to treason the muslims
.
this command made anyone to think twice before entering islam because there just be one way , so that they must to be sure from thier decesion , from this point of view i see the strong of islam not the weakness of it .
 
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elwill

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Show me where it's condemned in modern Arab countries because it's no longer 'relevant'.
am i told you that it's condemend in modern arab countries ?
if it is condemend in any country so it isn't for relegious reasons , even jesus (pbuh) didn't condemned it


Show me Aisha 'got pregnant' at that age.
why aisha specefically , are you can't realize that 9yo girl can to be pregnant in this age ?

thaigal.jpg


That's not the argument. For instance never have I accused Muhammed of pedophilia and yet others keep using that word in their replies to me. Let's stick to the argument being made.
okey , i'm sorry for that , i just felt that you wanna to refer to pedophilia of our prophet

anaway Prophet Muhammad's marriage with Aisha was 100% legal and acceptable by all laws and Divine Religions!
so what is your problem with that ?
 
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elwill

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You mean he made up verses against Muhammed and this 'encited' emnity towards Islam and thus made him an enemy. In other words "Don't criticise Islam"

It's like the poetess Muhammed had murdered for her witty ditties.

Kab did not simply insult the prophet Muhammad and Muslim women. He did much more, he went to the prophet’s enemies and incited against Muhammad alongside them.

In today’s legal system, if you incite murder that is seen as a crime and you yourself are guilty of murder as well. This is exactly what Kab did; he incited murder and violence, so therefore he was taken care of.

I said "Islam is at war with all that is not under its rule"

So you're counter argument is "Islam isn't at war with the rest of the world because it gets on well with people under it's rule?"

That misses the mark completley. All you've done is confirmed the part of my address that Islam is NOT at war with that which is under it's rule. Not what it's reaction is to that which is NOT under it's rule.

you point is clear , what about this verses
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"
 
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Montalban

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Islam and Christianity are closely related, as are the Bible and the Quran. In my opinion, you can't attack one without attacking the other.

This is why I think it's silly when a Christian criticizes the Quran for being violent (or a Muslim criticizes the Bible for the same reason).

Based on your opinion - it's silly. Well done

As a non-Christian/non-Moslem you've nothing to say AT ALL on Muhammed's crime towards a child?

Seriously.. what's wrong here that you guys can't condemn this action of Muhammed towards a nine year old girl.
 
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Montalban

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am i told you that it's condemend in modern arab countries ?[/quyote]
Am I confused as to what you're asking?
if it is condemend in any country so it isn't for relegious reasons , even jesus didn't condemned it
Condemn what?

why aisha specefically , are you can't realize that 9yo girl can to be pregnant in this age ?
That's not the answer to my question. I asked you for proof Aisha got pregnant. How many kids did Muhammed have with her and when was that child born. Instead you wish to prove something about someone else entirely different.
okey , i'm sorry for that , i just felt that you wanna to refer to pedophilia of our prophet
Again you're responding to something I've not said.
anaway Prophet Muhammad's marriage with Aisha was 100% legal and acceptable by all laws and Divine Religions!
so what is your problem with that ?
Because you've made a false construct based on assumptions you have about religion.

I note too - and none of my non-Christian/non-Moslem opponents have noted this, that you are defending the practice -even today.

Where's the howls of protest from my pagan neighbours here?

Silence.

So much a sign of the true nature of these faiths;
-defend a Moslem's assault on a child, or stay silent on this and draw up 'examples' from the OT which you wish to condemn.
 
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Montalban

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Kab did not simply insult the prophet Muhammad and Muslim women. He did much more, he went to the prophet’s enemies and incited against Muhammad alongside them.
As noted, your prophet thinks 'poems' are incitement.
In today’s legal system, if you incite murder that is seen as a crime and you yourself are guilty of murder as well. This is exactly what Kab did; he incited murder and violence, so therefore he was taken care of.

Again, even poetry is incitement.

Where's my liberal 'free speech' friends here? If a Christian had said such stuff about artists there would be howls of protest


you point is clear , what about this verses
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

And yet again, you can deem any person an enemy who has not yet submitted to Islam. I should note here that 'peace' or 'submission' however is not enough - you've got to be able to rub-it in. The triumph of Islam over subject people requires continual humiliation of them. Dhimmi status is not just of being able to live in peace
 
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elwill

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Based on your opinion - it's silly. Well done

As a non-Christian/non-Moslem you've nothing to say AT ALL on Muhammed's crime towards a child?

Seriously.. what's wrong here that you guys can't condemn this action of Muhammed towards a nine year old girl.

crimes according to whom?
don't tell me according to society of america after 1500 years , it will be a silly answer
 
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elwill

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Do you think it is fair for you to come today and attack our beloved Prophet when nobody 1400 years ago from his tribe had objected to his marriage? Not even the Pagans of Mecca, nor the Jews and Christians of Medina ever objected to it or used it as a point against Islam as anti-Islamic do today.
 
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Booko

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Then it would probably explain why every time you see a rail against Muslims on an internet forum the age of Aisha changes every time. I've seen people say Aisha was as young as six years old in some discussions. Although I've also heard rumors online that when Mary was betrothed to Joseph she was twelve and he was in his sixties or seventies.

Yes, I've gone out and looked at sites where the misinformation comes from, and it's interesting to watch how that age changes. Of course they completely omit the practice of betrothal and assume that Arabic terms for "marriage" completely equate with the modern English meaning, which is just...silly.

It's pretty sad when people cannot debate religious fundamentals without attacking significant religious figures.

Hey, I wouldn't care if they attacked the religious figures, if they'd at least do the research, which requires a bit more work than regurgitating bile spew from anti-other-religion sites.

Even in the Information Age find I have to get me to a university theology library to find reliable information, since I don't speak Arabic and come up short on the culture of 6th century Arabia. Yeah, I own a few scholarly historical works on the subject of early Islam, but it isn't much.

As I said, the heroes in the Bible (with the exception of the story of Jesus) were no prize. Most of them did some pretty unspeakable things.

Actually, I rather like my Bible heros with warts -- even those very serious warts. The lesson it gives me is one of humility. If someone can be the greatest servant of God one minute and the next minute slip up, and horribly, then surely I'm not so special as to think I'm not gonna mess up.

Just as those figures do, I should pick myself up, dust myself off, try to make things as right as possible, and try not to make that mistake next time. ;)

And that's the meaning of "sin" after all..."to miss the mark."
 
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Booko

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Since GOD Almighty enabled females in Aisha's age to get pregnant, as it happened even in our world today , then why can't her age be the minimum age for marriage, especially during the Biblical and Islamic days where people used to die between the ages of 40s and 50s due to diseases and malnutrition?

Exactly the point. Women could not be married until they had reached menses. If someone doesn't like that design that makes girls able to bear children so young, I suppose it would be wiser to take it up with the Designer?

can you proof for me that marrying of girls in these age are opposed to any relegion in the world ?

My religion specifically states that the age of maturity must be attained, which is 15. However, as we are relative newbies, not even 2 centuries old, it's hardly a fair comparison.

There is also some question, though I'm unsure as to how widespread that question is, as to age of Aisha because of a peculiarity of Arabic use of numbers. In spoken Arabic when the base is known then sometimes only the second number is said. IOW, someone may say "6" or "9" but in context it is understood to mean "16" or "19." Going by some Islamic literature I've read her age at marriage could've been anywhere from 12 to even 23.

Of course, you're not going to get idiosyncracies about a language by uncritically cutting and pasting from questionable websites, but hey, it's not like an honest attempt to discover the truth and avoid spreading falsehoods is actually important in anyone's religion. :doh:

Nor is it likely to reveal great truth by basing an entire position on one hadith, particularly when the person advancing that as proof clearly hasn't done any research of his own concerning hadith, their history and sources, nor how they are regarded among various groups within Islam, and may or may not know a hadith from a hairdo.

It's as absurd as ripping one Orthodox tradition out of context and then claiming it's representative of the Eastern Church, or even all of Christianity.

If you look at the pattern of the rest of Muhammad's wives, it hardly shows someone with pedophilia on their mind. If that were so, he would not have married his first wife Kadijah when she was 40.
 
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katautumn

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For instance never have I accused Muhammed of pedophilia and yet others keep using that word in their replies to me.

You have stated in almost every one of your responses in this thread that we are condoning a "heinous crime against children" and that "Muhammed consummated his marriage with a six-year old girl". Is that not pedophilia? You haven't come out and said, "Muhammed was a pervy pedophile!" but that is what you are saying.

You continue to ignore the questions about cultural irrelevance and also the time period in which Muhammed was alive. You continue to defend your stance that Muhammed was a pedophile because you believe he was married to a nine-year old girl (even though you later assigned a younger age to Aisha and said he consummated his marriage to a six-year old girl) and therefore this is what makes Islam fundamentally wrong.

Morningstar has a valid point. The reason why most Christians argue against Islam and use shoddy reasons such as Muhammed being married to a young girl or Jihadists being the prime example of how Muslims act on their faith is because they can't argue against the fundamentals. They're too similar to Christianity.
 
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Meshavrischika

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I don't know much about Islam, I just know that it came from the same roots as Judaism and Christianity.... I had the Koran for a bit but (no offense) couldn't get into it. (We read a book - can't remember the name - about three women trying to work out their different faiths after 9/11 - it was great - i'll have to find it and put the name up). I do know that like all religions, it's not what the mainstream thinks it is. I don't really think anyone who is not immersed in a religion can truely understand all the nuances and ideation. But... that's MHO.
 
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Booko

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The reason why most Christians argue against Islam and use shoddy reasons such as Muhammed being married to a young girl or Jihadists being the prime example of how Muslims act on their faith is because they can't argue against the fundamentals. They're too similar to Christianity.

Hm, actually I think the reason Christians would argue against Islam is the same reason Muslims would argue against the Baha'i Faith.

One thing Christianity and Islam have in common is a belief that the Figure at the center of their religion is the "last," and that shuts out the possibility of anyone else claiming prophethood, so clearly any latercomers must be "false." The logic is internally consistent, so the possibility of an actual "true" prophet for both Christians and Muslims can put them in a bind, which is understandable.

The obvious possibilities are to investigate the new claims and see if they hold water or to assume the claims are false because there is no option for them to be true. Considering the odds of any claims to prophethood actually turning out to be correct, I am really unable to fault any Christians (or Muslims) who choose not to look further.

Also, in defense of Christians, I'll say from personal experience that it's not the easiest thing in the world to really investigate Islam if you live in the West, though the difficulties are somewhat less these days.

Back before I had a family I was a regular denizen in university libraries and I can tell you from my personal experience in trying to learn about Islam that there is a lot of total junk out there, even in the more scholarly areas.

First, there was resistance within Islam for a long time to even translating the Qu'ran, so Western scholars were often depending on really bad translations. I mean, if someone is basing an argument on the Ketenensis translation of the Qu'ran, the conclusion is not very trustworthy. GIGO. There really are not any reliable translations of the Qu'ran into English until the 20th century, and even so, the earliest ones are by non-Muslims.

Would you trust a translation of the Gospel from Koine made by someone who had no interest in preserving the meaning of the text, or worse, by someone who had an axe to grind? I sure wouldn't. I think Arberry does a decent job, overall, but as a Westerner and non-Muslim if there's something missing in his translation I would be not so likely to notice.

Also, you'd be surprised how much scholarship of the 20th century was based on historical accounts that came from non-Arabic (i.e. European) sources that ultimately reach back to the Crusades. The very serious scholars will delve into Arabic sources to try and get a balanced view, but first they'd have to know Arabic and then they'd have to have access to those sources, which is not so easy.

Even in a good university library the subject of Islam and its history is pretty dicey to investigate. Much of the time you find out you're reading the equivalent of the Romans claiming the Druids sacrificed humans, and only after a lot of further digging does it become clear that you've got your hands on something that's of limited use. :doh:

So if Christians or anyone else have misconceptions about Islam, I'm not surprised nor do I assume nefarious motivations on the spot, but it would seem like the more honest approach where there are questions is to just ask some actual Muslims about it in the spirit of trying to learn, as opposed to putting on a show of gleeful misrepresentation that shows no inclination to be confused by any facts.
 
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