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It certainly shows you need to read more Islamic history. And it shows your glossing over her life.
What do you know about islam?
Not true. Research the 7 conditions of the Shahadah.You've already submitted. That's all they require
Where did I call it shameful?!!!! You are putting words in my mouth!I'd like to see the Moslem response to you calling their verses shameful
You have cited bulk articles, not a few verses that could be addressed.Are you an expert? I've already cited the verses. I've already cited Islamic opinion on the issue.
Says who?As noted, they're already there. If you wanted to discuss them, you'd have done so already
Nope, but hypocrisy should always be pointed out.Which has nothing to do with this topic
The Arab Pagans do not exist longer because they converted to Islam!There's nothing new about Wiccans, but it still doesn't demonstrate your attempt at a point - in fact given the time frame there still should be at least a few Arab Wiccans. Where are the Arab pagans?
Well, I have not seen any Islamic atrocities so how am I supporting any?Funny that you would be aghast at this, but support Islamic atrocities. Showing your true colours.
who said they were forced to convert?But they were forced to convert. Convenient for you to not even look at that.
Says who, you?Having sex with a child is not good for her.
This once again shows your lack of knowledge on Islam.Not at the time of Muhammed, which was the strange time-frame you established for your challenge
The Banu Quraish were not Jews! they were Pagan Arabs of Mecca!Since you mention this, why not look at what happened to one tribe of Arab Jews, the Banu Quraish?
Or perhaps because Muhammad was a good guy. He could have killed him in his sleep, no?Several people Muhammed couldn't touch because they were too powerful
If she was so sexually used, then why did Muhammad allow her to go on migration to Abyssinia? I mean after all, if all he wanted was sex!She was sexually used. Are you saying she had ample opportunity to leave if she should have wished; that there was a larger support network to help a single, formerly married woman?
Yes, and I do think you are being hypocritical. But I do not at all think that Muhammad did anything wrong, and I do not think Islam is a violent religion. I think your Bible is though. So, I am not saying "you too" I am saying "just you."That's not the argument I made. Tu quoque is 'you too'.
If I said "All Americans mistreated their native population" and you said "Australians did this too!" that would be a tu quoque argument if you were using it as a means of defending America, or attacking Australia for being hypocritcal
No, because your criticisms of Islam are all your wishful thinking, not factual proofs.That is the essence of it, if you are using it as a way of saying "You can't criticise Islam, you're just as bad" - which is in fact what you're doing.
It doesn't, but it does with your hypocrisy.That's simply false. But it's consistant an accusation with your Islamic apology here. Besides that, what have they to do with a discussion on what we know about Islam?
No it was not. It is not like he raped and used her.The act of 'consummating' the marriage when she was nine is an assault
No, you post long articles that you yourself probably do not read.As noted, you're an apologist for Islam. You make false 'challenges' such as posting Hadith, when I've already done that - twice!
They were making idols out of dates and depriving the poor, hungry, when many people had ample food.Why are you against them making statues out of dates? What possible objection could you have, if you claim to be a non-Moslem?
Among other issues.You're now talking about the plague???
I am not going to start a thread if one does not want me to.Another of your flawed challenges. You could easily have done so; and you tacitly recognise that you're off topic
I am not a Muslim, but I can tell you the length of the Qu'ran!One thing I do know is the Scriptures of Islam are the Koran.
I was wondering how many pages are in the Koran, is it a considerable volume of text?
It's circular when you say it's Allah's word, based on the revelation that it's Allah's word. How do you know? Allah's word says it is.
Thank you Futuwwa.Druweid, you might want to check out the following:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299: Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could."
Does that sound like the words of a victim of sexual abuse? I think not.
well , you also call the bible God's word
but you allready know it isn't , that's why when you talk about bible , you say according to mathew or according to john or according to paul , you never say according to God or even according to jesus , because you havnt book of God nor book of jesus
You don't have to be a Moslem to submit, but all Moslems have submittedfrançais;47226333 said:Not true. Research the 7 conditions of the Shahadah.
And you could have addressed any one of them. You haven't.français;47226333 said:Where did I call it shameful?!!!! You are putting words in my mouth!
I would not change a thing about the Qu'ran. There is nothing shameful in that book of wisdom.
You have cited bulk articles, not a few verses that could be addressed.
It's logical. You're setting up conditions on debating when you could have yourself taken any one of those verses and addressed it.français;47226333 said:Says who?
Thank you Futuwwa.I will certainly take that into consideration, but in all fairness and objectivity, and with all due respect, I will also have to consider the possibility of some form of Stockholm Syndrome.
I've had projects to work on tonight, and work starts early tomorrow, so my next post will prolly be later in the day.
Warmest regards,
-- Druweid
Submitted to Islam? Well of course they do.You don't have to be a Moslem to submit, but all Moslems have submitted
Because if I address one but not the other, it would not be right. Also, I do not have an hour to do that. Which is why I asked you to post one or two at a time so I would have time to address them.And you could have addressed any one of them. You haven't.
And, I already told you why.. Because you simply posted a big copy/paste article, and if I addressed every single thing, it would take me a few hours.. Time I do not have.It's logical. You're setting up conditions on debating when you could have yourself taken any one of those verses and addressed it.
You still haven't.
No.You simply advertise how 'genuine' you wish to debate that evidence.
Yes, because it shows a character flaw and makes one question their credibility.Hypocrisy, IF it existed, is not a defence.
As I note, if you really want me to address that evidence, you will post one or two verses at a time, so that I would have time to answer.As I note, if you really want to address that evidence you will.
So al-Lah didn't have to keep it just because it was normal practice then, did he!
You're argument was
"Young marriage was kept because it was normal practice"
You need to think then about what argument you wish to make
i will repeat my statement again
it didn't rejected by allah although it was normal practice
i mean if it was bad practice , God had to prohibit it , but it isn't
hahahaLots of things, even adding minarets to your mosque
are you consider that , reform of relegion ?
you kmow ? we also adding fans inside our mosque
thank you , but please can you make it easier for meThe UN is in New York
The evidence in post #105
Here's the link to that evidence
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu6/2/fs23.htm
what is the kind of suffering for early girls pride?
we are common that God didn't prohibit it in islam and christianity , so that i wanna to understand your personal view
well , my openion is that she is ready for that . proof for me that i'm wrong*sigh* I just stated that
a) it's harmful HOW and for whom ?
b) there's no evidence to say that just because she's physically capable of it, she's 'ready' for it psychologically, emotionally, etc.
i never see any problems with early marriage ? did you ?UNLESS you can show a commensurate maturity at the time she just begins physical maturation. You've yet to do this.
i didn't need to do soIn point of fact you've also avoided showing that Aisha was capable at that time to! Sure, you showed evidence another individual was, but that's not what I asked.
we argue about the practice not about Aisha (AS)
may be , but she has the right to marry (from relegious point of view )As noted as well, even Islamic nations don't allow her adult rights at that time.
it depends , you must ask yourself first , ready to what ?I think that answers itself. If you're not 'mature' you're not ready.
well , count for me the problems , and don't repeat your words " she not mature emotionally" , i want the problems caused of thatThe problem is your god didn't seem to know about the harm it would cause.
all i ask is to convice me that this practice is harmfull , we believe that if it's harmfull , so it could be prohibited in islam by God
One thing I do know is the Scriptures of Islam are the Koran.
I was wondering how many pages are in the Koran, is it a considerable volume of text? What in your opinion is the most sacred saying of the prophet?
Hmm...'allowed' doesn't mean 'must'. Ah! I know this is lame answer.Also note the important fact that Moslems are still allowed to marry girls.
I've cited several Moslem advice sites on this thread that attest to this.
This is because of the 'internal logic' in Islam.
Yup. And Muhammad also follow the constitutional law and he's made clear(although he actually re-stated from the Quran) that Muslims must abide to national law. Abiding to national law is a must while marrying to 'todays non-standard marital age' is just allowed. Islam has a clear guiedline between 'must' and 'allowed' which is 'must' is the top priority.Moslems respect Muhammed and see him as an example FOR ALL TIME - not just for the people of the desert of 7th Century Arabia. His wives are 'archetypes' of the sort of women Moslems are permitted to marry.
Actually, we're permitted because there's a verse in Quran 5:5 with some conditions: basically chaste and "true believer". What is "true believer"?...it's debatable and should be on different thread I guess. The point is, it's not because Muhammad's example(does any of his wife wasn't converted to Islam when they married?...hmm).For instance he married an older woman, a Chrisitan, and a Jew. A Moslem is thus permitted to marry a Christian because of this example.
This does not mean "All moslems will marry Chrisitan women" but it is allowed.
This is a clear sign Islam is not of God because their god did not forsee the harm this would cause.
Dream on. You still claim you want to discuss the evidence I presented and still haven't.français;47227329 said:Ah, it is funny... I spot 4 errors in your post, clearly point out your errors, and you ignore over the entire part of the post. Looks like it is getting hard for you!
And you've submitted.français;47227329 said:Submitted to Islam? Well of course they do.
That's illogical. If you charge someone with murder you don't have to examine everyone else's guilt as well. But you're happy inventing errors as well.français;47227329 said:Because if I address one but not the other, it would not be right.
And now you continue with the insincerity of claiming that you'll address the evidence I citedfrançais;47227329 said:Also, I do not have an hour to do that.
I already made that point; look to where I said not every Moslem will marry a Chrisitan.Hmm...'allowed' doesn't mean 'must'. Ah! I know this is lame answer.
Great. But it's still allowed. That's like saying (if slavery was still legal) "Modern corporations don't have to have slave workers, but they're allowed to" (and in this hypothetical SOME companies in point of fact still had them)In modern days, Muslims don't marry their children anymore 'below age' (except for some very little cases, if any). Ah! another lame answer.
I agree. They've had to separate their laws from the Koran. Thanks for showing how the Koran-based laws are so reprehensible that many Moslem nations don't stick to it anymoreMuslims also followed the constitutional law. And 'muslims countries' in modern days have this law.
Again showing that your god wasn't aware of these things but fortunately Moslems of today - in some places - are more 'enlightened' than your god.So, Muhammad is still our icon and we follow most of his examples but in this particular case, we must: "Obey Allah and obey the Rasul and the leader among you".
Thank you Futuwwa.I will certainly take that into consideration, but in all fairness and objectivity, and with all due respect, I will also have to consider the possibility of some form of Stockholm Syndrome.
I've had projects to work on tonight, and work starts early tomorrow, so my next post will prolly be later in the day.
Warmest regards,
-- Druweid
français;47223219 said:He did not rape her!
1. He probably married her to further relations with Abu Bakr, her dad. It was a norm at that time to do such. Unlike marriage now days that is seen for the sole purpose of love, marriage back then was also done if it would help benefit the family or what not.
2. Show me where he said no.
Show me where he raped her.
LOL! I challenge you to show me one place in the Qu'raan where it says this.
you know so little about Islam! This is no where to be found in the Qu'ran!
You think your religion is peaceful?
Start up a thread, and you and I can debate if your religion is peaceful or not.
Yup, and look where I stated "Ah! I know this is lame answer."I already made that point; look to where I said not every Moslem will marry a Chrisitan.
Well, it's allowed because there's no Quranic verses that disallow it. But the top priority must go first.Great. But it's still allowed. That's like saying (if slavery was still legal) "Modern corporations don't have to have slave workers, but they're allowed to" (and in this hypothetical SOME companies in point of fact still had them)
Nope. There's no law of marrying girls when they reach certain age in Quran. It's no like we seperate it, but just move with todays situation. It's like the drugs abuse law. There's no law in Quran that permits nor disallow it. But from Quran we got the verse that say, don't put yourself into destruction. So go figureI agree. They've had to separate their laws from the Koran. Thanks for showing how the Koran-based laws are so reprehensible that many Moslem nations don't stick to it anymore
Wasn't aware? Haha. It's more like 'my' God allow us to go with temporary trend and needsAgain showing that your god wasn't aware of these things but fortunately Moslems of today - in some places - are more 'enlightened' than your god.
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