I think your conversation with OCG is very interesting and I don't want to interrupt it. Let me just introduce myself as an eavesdropper, so if I interject a small comment now and then, it won't be disruptive.
Crazy Liz, thanks for your interest and thanks for stopping by. I'm interested in as many informed points of view as possible.
I'm in the process of giving up on my faith in Christ, it seems, and want to make sure I exhaust my resources.
I'm a mom in my 50s, 3/4 the way through a seminary degree & taking a break from it, but still plan to go into ministry in a few years.
What kind of ministry are you going into? I really wish I would have gotten a seminary degree (too). I love reading and study. I really wish I would have gotten several degrees in science as well. I am just such a curious bugger. Every time I read on something, I do my best to research it, to read the different points of view from the original sources, etc.
I have a son, 22, who lives at home, has a job & is going through a process right now very, very similar to what you describe, so I've been reading Harris & Dawkins a little bit, myself.
Way to go. I'm less a fan of Harris but I have to admit I kind of like Dawkins ascorbic witt. Sometimes it is a bit over the top but he makes me think as well as chuckle.
Anyhow, my favorite Dawkins book was
Ancestor's Tale. Up until about a year ago, I didn't really "get" evolutionary biology. I just had a bunch of false impressions about it, mostly from non-scientists with other agendas. Anyhow, I read three or four books on the subject, but
Ancestor's Tale was the key one that helped me "get it."
My 14-yo daughter is very involved in church & our church is pretty conservative. Actually, too fundy for me.
But please do love her all the same. I'm sure she's very precious and special to you.
I am afraid what my daughter is learning in church will give her a faith as brittle as my son's. He, like you, wants to know the TRUTH.
Ouch, that felt a bit back-handed.
He was always a little scientist growing up. I can remember him losing his first tooth and declaring that he didn't believe in the tooth fairy, but he was going to put his tooth under his pillow, and asked mom & dad to promise not to put money there for him. Even at that age, he wanted to know for sure whether or not there was a tooth fairy more than he wanted a dollar, or dollars for all the rest of the teeth he would lose.
And exactly how is wanting to follow truth based upon evidence "brittle?"
I've been wondering about whether I did the right thing back then, respecting his wishes.
Yeah, I had a fun conversation about the tooth fairy with my kids.
"Wow, what a dangerous job he must have. Has to illegal sneak into peoples houses and up into kids rooms. I wonder if he has to worry about people's dogs? Or what about people who own guns and want to protect their homes? I wonder if he's ever been shot at?"
"And how expensive it must be? Do you think he has to get sponsors? Where do you think he gets the money from?"
Obviously the kids were a bit older and they rolled their eyes and said, "stop it Dad" but they fully understood how ludicrous and
made up it seemed in the midst of so much
evidence that denied and so little evidence that confirmed.
That Mom put a quarter under the pillow simply made so much more sense.
Occam's Razor in the mind of a kid.
He's given me a lot of the arguments you've given, and I've told him"I don't believe god's like that, either," or "I don't believe the Bible is that kind of book, either," more times than I can count.
Whether or not one "believes" the Bible is any "kind of Bible," the Bible says what it says for itself. What I "believe" it says is in the realm of my mind and, similar to one of my recent posts, has little to no causation with both what the Bible actually says and what the TRUTH in the world actually is.
I hope you are considering encouraging your son in his Biblical scholarship.
Also, I, a bit, resent that you've called my posts "arguments." I am
not putting forth a position. I am looking for evidence. I am struggling to find it. When someone put forth something as evidence that is based upon a logical fallacy, circular logic, or such, I need to explorer it further detail.
Again, I go back to the post I made about
not wanting to gullibly follow MYTH. Simply I want to KNOW the TRUTH.
In fact, some of our conversations have led me to confess that if it weren't for the wild story about golden plates and magic glasses, there are some things about Mormon theology that make more sense to me than classical Christian theism of the scholastic or fundamentalist varieties.
But what about the archaeological or liguistic evidence with regard to the Book of Mormon? Yowsa. I don't think Joseph Smith even know of the archaeology or linguistics of his time.
OTOH, there is something mystical that I believe in.
I also acknowledge that the universe, life, and existence itself are indeed amazing, precious and awe-inspiring. In fact, more so when I know how numbered the sunrises and sunsets I get to see are.
However, there is a
huge leap from "something mystical" to the Nicene Creed or to the inspiration of the sixty-six book Protestant canon.
But I left certainty behind a long time ago.
So if you left certainty long ago, how did you affirm your belief in the Nicene Creed on this site?
Was it based upon that which you
know to be truth?
Or that which you simply
hoped to be so.
This is the one point I wanted to comment on. I can truly say, "I have decided to follow Jesus. No turning back." The second Matrix movie is a parallel for me. Neo's conversations with Morpheus and the Oracle about faith seeking understanding, rather than the other way around, finally made that concept make sense to me.
I think
The Matrix has to be the most "theological flexible" movie. Everybody uses it. Anyhow, I loved the first movie.
So for myself, I have decided to follow Jesus.
Based upon exactly what though?
Anyhow, I would suggest that I generally do follow the teachings of Jesus in my daily life significantly more than many professing Christians.
Though I very skeptically doubt his divinity and accuracy of most of the mythical stories about him, whether Biblical or apocryphal.
I don't expect ever again to have certainty about any of the theories of religion, but still I don't see myself turning back from following Jesus.
I don't necessarily see that I've "turned back" when it comes to daily lifestyle choices.
Just that I don't believe it all and think it all about as mythical as Zeus, Thor, or Neo.
Regardless, everybody "knows" apostates and heretics go to hell.
And I wondered whether possibly there might be an element off that same sort of thought or feeling in the part of your post I quoted. As often as I've heard otherwise, I really do feel like this is a good place to be, spiritually. If this is where your path is leading you, you won't be the first one to pass this way, although hardly anyone ever talks about it, so it often feels like a lonely place.
It does feel lonely. However, I suspet most all of us moderns struggle with this.
I used to not read my Bible in public. Now I do quite frequently.
If somebody tries to strike up a conversation, I usually just say, "I am struggling with disbelief." And usually, nobody gets all fakey preaching and that. Usually people open up and have a real conversation. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), I usually just cut the converation short. I'm not ready to go there all that much yet, especially not to a stranger.
Please carry on & I'll return to lurking here.
I appreciate you stopping by.
I find the banana a wonderful illustration of the adage, one man's meat is another man's poison. Nasty gag-inducing things, but the husband loves 'em.
