What do you do when you don't believe any more?

[IndyEllis]

Mods, note that I am and have been struggling with all of this for several years now.

I just realized that I was typing my replies quickly and not taking extra care to make sure this did not have the feel of a debate.

Anyhow what I am fundamentally struggling with is a LACK OF EVIDENCE.

And then secondary within this context, I have to figure out how to work through all of this with my Christian family.

I am in the closet and am silent and I hate this.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

Mods, note that I am and have been totally struggling with all of this for several years now.

I just realized that I was typing my replies quickly and not taking extra care to make sure this did not have the feel of a debate.

Anyhow what I am fundamentally struggling with is a LACK OF EVIDENCE.

And then secondary within this context, I have to figure out how to work through all of this with my Christian family.

I am in the closet and am silent and I hate this.

First, congratulations on being an ORU graduate. We lived in Tulsa, OK for many years. While I have not taken any courses at ORU, the graduates I have talked with through the years before leaving Tulsa all seemed to have a "God in box" theology. That is to say:

-This is how God works;
- This is what I have been taught to believe; and
- I am not interested in information/ideas which run counter to what I have been taught.
​

This is not to say all ORU gradutes are like the above description, nor is it meant to insult any ORU graduates who are reading this. It is my observation based on conversations with various ORU graduates over a period of years. So, I am willing to concede my observation may be incorrect but please note that arguing about ORU really should be a new thread.

Now that I have sucessfully alienated all ORU alums, I will continue .

Short of building a time machine that will take one back in time, there is probably no evidence available that will be of any use. You have done your research well and are quite capable of raising excellent counter arguments to the information so far presented.

Having wrestled with this issue a great deal myself, I will share the only 2 pieces of evidence I have. While both are personal and are subject to interpretation, for me they are sufficient for my faith and walk with God.

First, regarding the resurrection of Jesus the Christ in the New Testament. The event can be summed up by the phrase "something happened". (Bear with me, please, before pointing out my grasp of the obvious).

While the details of the various resurrection stories can seem to conflict, whatever happened was sufficient enough for a group of followers to preach and tell others about their experience with Jesus the Christ. It has been my observation that throughout history, when the founder or key person in a movement dies, the movement also tends to die. Maybe not immediately, but it dies. Yet, Christianity has been around for almost 2,000 years now. Therefore, whatever happened to the followers after His death was sufficient for them to risk stoning and/or social rejection and tell others what it was like to experience Him.

The other piece of subjective evidence is that I have had a number of "coincidental occurrences" (large and small) with family and friends through the years. So many, that for me to chalk up these various serendipitous events to statistics working in my favor seems unrealistic. Granted, it is a subjective observation on my part, but when I have tried to allow that it is statistical chance working in my favor, I feel hollow and empty. Believing in a God who is gently watching over me and being of help even when I am too dense to realize it, is far more comforting than ascribing my life solely to random chance.

Changing the subject, you mentioned in an earlier post about miracles happening in other religions. Could it be that since so many religions seem to have similar threads to them (love one another, respect others, help widows and orphans, etc.) that they are all describing the same God? The analogy would be a circle of people sorrounding the base of a mountain and each one describing the mountain. Each description is accurate from where that person stands, but another person (say 40 or 50 people away) sees the mountain from a different perspective.

Enough preaching.

OldChurchGuy

 

[IndyEllis]

First, congratulations on being an ORU graduate. We lived in Tulsa, OK for many years. While I have not taken any courses at ORU, the graduates I have talked with through the years before leaving Tulsa all seemed to have a "God in box" theology. That is to say:

-This is how God works;​

- This is what I have been taught to believe; and​

- I am not interested in information/ideas which run counter to what I have been taught.​

This is not to say all ORU gradutes are like the above description, nor is it meant to insult any ORU graduates who are reading this. It is my observation based on conversations with various ORU graduates over a period of years. So, I am willing to concede my observation may be incorrect but please note that arguing about ORU really should be a new thread.

Now that I have sucessfully alienated all ORU alums, I will continue .

Any rational ORU alum would have known all that already. Anyhow, I'm not too sure I ever did fit into that box so well. I was young and I didn't know so much. I wanted to go to a Christian university. It was a time in my life where I need to get my act together. This was the only way I knew how then. It was really the only Christian university which I seriously considered.

Short of building a time machine that will take one back in time, there is probably no evidence available that will be of any use. You have done your research well and are quite capable of raising excellent counter arguments to the information so far presented.

I have done my homework. This has been practically a part-time job over the last few years. I honestly don't know many people who have invested so much effort into honest pursuit of truth.

Kind of frustrating because my issues are REAL and the rules of this forum almost see to prohibit me from getting the answers to my VERY, VERY REAL questions.

My struggle is NOT about oh-how-do-I-work-through-this-petty-self-destructive-selfish-carnal-sin-in-my-life issue.

Having wrestled with this issue a great deal myself,

Indeed. That's fear and trembling. That I respect.

I wonder if there are many who haven't come across the following scriptures.

A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions. ~ Proverbs 18:2

Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. ~ Proverbs 4:7

I will share the only 2 pieces of evidence I have. While both are personal and are subject to interpretation, for me they are sufficient for my faith and walk with God.

And that I respect too. I know all "evidence" goes through a filter of personal experience and a degree of subjectivity.

Otherwise, it would not have taken me years smack in the middle of a lifetime.

First, regarding the resurrection of Jesus the Christ in the New Testament. The event can be summed up by the phrase "something happened".

Could be so. There could have been a historical Jesus that could have had a a controversial message, that did get killed by the Romans for it.

(Bear with me, please, before pointing out my grasp of the obvious).

No worries.

While the details of the various resurrection stories can seem to conflict,

Man, do I have a lot of respect for a Christian who actually knows about this Biblical scholarship.

whatever happened was sufficient enough for a group of followers to preach and tell others about their experience with Jesus the Christ.

Yes. But aren't you about to step on the logical fallacy of an appeal to popularity?

An argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people"), in logic, is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges that "If many believe so, it is so." In ethics this argument is stated, "if many find it acceptable, it is acceptable." ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

It has been my observation that throughout history, when the founder or key person in a movement dies, the movement also tends to die.

Indeed. However all major religions seem to have survived this test. Just because something is popular doesn't make it right. I learned that one in Sunday School long ago.

Maybe not immediately, but it dies. Yet, Christianity has been around for almost 2,000 years now.

But so have other religions. Even longer. Even paganism. Yikes.

Also, isn't this almost like the application of the anthropic principle to religious belief? I wonder if there would be a memetic equivalent.

Therefore, whatever happened to the followers after His death was sufficient for them to risk stoning and/or social rejection and tell others what it was like to experience Him.

Just because someone will die for something doesn't necessarily make it right.

I thought we were all made acutely aware of this 9/11/2001.

Anyhow, isn't this getting close to affirming the consequence or possibly a red herring?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

I apologize for bringing these up and that this may appear like "debate" but I would like to emphasize that there isn't really a proposition I'm supporting.

I'm struggling fundamentally with a lack of evidence for supporting my former Christian faith clearly at the exclusion of all others with an ability to confirm a faith as true and all the others as false teaching.

Apply your heart to instruction and your ears to words of knowledge. ~ Proverbs 23:12

A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps. ~ Proverbs 14:15

The other piece of subjective evidence is that I have had a number of "coincidental occurrences" (large and small) with family and friends through the years.

Me too. However, so have nearly all devout believers of nearly all faiths though.

So many, that for me to chalk up these various serendipitous events to statistics working in my favor seems unrealistic.

I envy you.

Granted, it is a subjective observation on my part, but when I have tried to allow that it is statistical chance working in my favor, I feel hollow and empty.

But isn't this supporting the benefit of the belief, not the validity of the belief?

A parable: A man has cancer. We don't tell him. We tell him he is fine. He has more peace of mind. Perhaps knowing you have cancer might even give feelings of hollowness and emptiness. But simply the truth is the truth.

Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another. ~ Leviticus 19:11

Again, back in Sunday School I learned we must follow the truth even if it is hard and not always the easy way.

Just because something doesn't "feel" "hollow" or "empty" doesn't necessarily make it true does it? I fear some could even rationalize self-satisfying and self-gratifying behaviour this way.

Sometimes being on a diet makes me feel a bit "empty." Literally. But personally, I think it's a good thing to be healthy and in shape.

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. ~ 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

I believe I've seen this verse quoted many times to encourage one to physically take care of one's body.

Believing in a God who is gently watching over me and being of help even when I am too dense to realize it, is far more comforting than ascribing my life solely to random chance.

Yes it easy. It "feels good." Does that mean "do it?"

Also, "random chance" is a bit of a red herring isn't it? With what I've read, often those two words get used together by YECs when the don't yet really understand the principles of evolutionary biology. Is this what you're referring to or are you referring more to existence at all?

Changing the subject, you mentioned in an earlier post about miracles happening in other religions. Could it be that since so many religions seem to have similar threads to them (love one another, respect others, help widows and orphans, etc.) that they are all describing the same God?

Very possible.

But then again, what about Saul meeting the witch of Endor?

I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people. ~ Leviticus 20:6, NIV

Also many do indeed believe demons can work miracles. St. Augustine included.

Do you attribute those same miracles to the same God?

The analogy would be a circle of people sorrounding the base of a mountain and each one describing the mountain. Each description is accurate from where that person stands, but another person (say 40 or 50 people away) sees the mountain from a different perspective.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ~ John 14:6

But haven't many almost considered such a point of view heretical?

Enough preaching.

No worries. I'm enjoying the conversation. This struggle has been and remains to be very, very painful.

Sometimes it feels like my best (albeit I do indeed seriously wonder if imaginary) friend has died and I can't really talk to anybody about it.

In addition to the general lack of evidence supporting the certainty and exclusivity of a Christian faith, I simply also struggle with verses such as this.

If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity. ~ Deuteronomy 25:11-12

I have no idea how verses like that fit into my modern, democratic, compassionate life.

I struggle with this stuff still.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

. . .
Anyhow what I am fundamentally struggling with is a LACK OF EVIDENCE.

I told you what Jesus offers you (post #11), do you want to go to his door, or carry on debating in the market-place ?

 

[IndyEllis]

I told you what Jesus offers you (post #11), do you want to go to his door, or carry on debating in the market-place ?

Over the past year maybe more I have been struggling, trying to assess whether or not the Bible is divinely inspired or just legendary, mythological and fully attributable to human imaginations.

In post #11 you told me what you believe Jesus offers me.

I came to this site in a last ditch effort. I almost marked myself as a Christian as it was so hard for me not to. Yes, I know heaven and hell is at stake. This was the first time ever I did not consider myself a Christian. But frankly, I don't believe many of the elements of the Nicean Creed (yes, I've done a good bit of research on each point), so in all honesty, I had to mark myself as an Atheist. Anathema. I would have preferred a checkbox for "skeptic," but I had to work with what I was given.

Do I want to go to the door? Yes. Do I want to know that there is a door and that it is the door? Yes. Yes. Yes.

Perhaps you noticed in some of my previous posts my questioning of the inspiration of the Bible.

In post #11, you principally quoted some verses. Given my questioning of the inspiration of the Bible, if you are going to use a Bible as the authority, please establish how that is the authority.

I would like to believe. I would like to go back to the old comfortable life.

I still fully intend to live the same life, to live by the same morality. The issue is fundamentally one of disbelief.

I recognize that I am having this discussion in "the market place," in a public forum.

The sincerity of my pursuit and the gravity of the stakes of my soul being at hand, I don't really care. I welcome God to show up. Just that I will not be deceived by unsupported assertions, logical fallacies, and a general lack of evidence.

Without this guarding of my heart, I could be so gullible as to be suckered into "believing" anything.

This I will not do. I am worth more than this. I expect more. My life, my purpose, potential my soul, and potentially my eternity are worth sufficiently enough that I treat this pursuit with dead seriousness.

I expect the one true God to be demonstrably so. Clearly differentiated from all others. Truly manifest in the evidence of creation.

I will listen, listen, and listen. I will continue this pursuit for a lifetime.

God, feel free to make yourself known.

 

[Shubunkin]

Well, I know you can pray to God to help you with your faith, or to give you some faith. That helped me during a low period. It really worked.

It is good you are asking questions, and inquiring and wanting more than a superficial "faith" or "belief" because the deeper your knowledge of the things of God, the better your faith will be. I was once upon a time (way when I was 20) belonged to a Pentecostal style church. Never did I feel so empty, but as I reached out and learned about other churches and another side of what they believed from Scripture, then I began to realize no one church had all of the answers. I prayed to find a church that did have everything. I believe I have found it.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

Any rational ORU alum would have known all that already. Anyhow, I'm not too sure I ever did fit into that box so well. I was young and I didn't know so much. I wanted to go to a Christian university. It was a time in my life where I need to get my act together. This was the only way I knew how then. It was really the only Christian university which I seriously considered.



I have done my homework. This has been practically a part-time job over the last few years. I honestly don't know many people who have invested so much effort into honest pursuit of truth.

Kind of frustrating because my issues are REAL and the rules of this forum almost see to prohibit me from getting the answers to my VERY, VERY REAL questions.

My struggle is NOT about oh-how-do-I-work-through-this-petty-self-destructive-selfish-carnal-sin-in-my-life issue.



Indeed. That's fear and trembling. That I respect.

I wonder if there are many who haven't come across the following scriptures.





And that I respect too. I know all "evidence" goes through a filter of personal experience and a degree of subjectivity.

Otherwise, it would not have taken me years smack in the middle of a life time.



Could be so. There could have been a historical Jesus. That could have had a a controversial message. That did get killed by the Romans for it.



No worries.



Man do I have a lot of respect for a Christian who actually knows about this Biblical scholarship.



Yes. But aren't you about to step on the logical fallacy of an appeal to popularity.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum



Indeed. However all major religions seem to have survived this test. Just because something is popular doesn't make it right. I learned that one in Sunday School long ago.



But so have other religions. Even longer. Even paganism. Yikes.

Also, isn't this almost like the application of the anthropic principle to religious belief? I wonder if there would be a memetic equivalent.



Just because someone will die for something doesn't necessarily make it right.

I thought we were all made acutely aware of this 9/11/2001.

Anyhow, isn't this getting close to affirming the consequent or possibly a red herring?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

I apologize for bringing these up and that this may appear like "debate" but I would like to emphasize that there isn't really a proposition I'm supporting.

I'm fundamentally struggling with a lack of evidence for supporting my former Christian faith clearly at the exclusion of all others with an ability to confirm a faith as true and all the others as false teaching.





Me too. However so have nearly all devout believers of nearly all faiths though.



I envy you.



But isn't this supporting the benefit of the belief, not the validity of the belief.

A parable: A man has cancer. We don't tell him. We tell him he is fine. He has more peace of mind. Perhaps knowing you have cancer might even give feelings of hollowness and emptiness. But simply the truth is the truth.



Again, back in Sunday School I learned we *must* follow the truth even if it is hard and not always the easy way.

Just because something doesn't "feel" "hollow" or "empty" doesn't necessarily make it true does it? I fear some could even rationalize self-satisfying and self-gratifying behaviour this way.

Sometimes being on a diet makes me feel a bit "empty." Literally. But personally, I think it's a good thing to be healthy and in shape.



I believe I've seen this verse quoted many times to encourage one to physically take care of one's body.



Yes it easy. It "feels good." Does that mean "do it?"

Also, "random chance" is a bit of a red herring isn't it? With what I've read, often those two words get used together by YECs when the don't yet really understand the principles of evolutionary biology. Is this what you're referring to or are you referring more to existence at all?



Very possible.

But then again, what about Saul meeting the witch of Endor?



Also many do indeed believe demons can work miracles. St. Augustine included.

Do you attribute those same miracles to the same God?





But haven't many almost considered such a point of view heretical?



No worries. I'm enjoying the conversation. This struggle has been and remains to be very, very painful.

Sometimes it feels like my best (albeit I do indeed seriously wonder if imaginary) friend has died and I can't really talk to anybody about it.

In addition to the general lack of evidence supporting the certainty and exclusivity of a Christian faith, I simply also struggle with verses such as this.



I have no idea how verses like that fit into my modern, democratic, compassionate life.

I struggle with this stuff still.

First, I am glad you didn't feel insulted about my observations on ORU.

Thanks for the link about the resurrection debate. It is most interesting once I was able to get to the website. (The link may be a bit off compared to the website path)

Regarding my attempt at logic regarding the resurrection, your points are well made. My mistake for not researching other faiths more thoroughly and thinking a little more deeply.


Regarding my observation about random chance and statistics, the reply was:

But isn't this supporting the benefit of the belief, not the validity of the belief.​

Possibly. The above question/response appears to be a gray area to me. Is that emptiness when I attempt to turn away from theism a validation that turning away from theism a mistake? I like to think so, but cannot prove that it is the benefit of the belief. Like the Bible, this may be a matter of interpretation.

Regarding the verse in Deuteronomy, it is my understanding the reason the wife would be punished so extremely is that she is disgracing her husband either by exposing his nakedness (definitely a concern in ancient Judaism) or finishing the fight prematurely and thus disgracing him by hurting him rather than the assailant. Either way she is seen as bringing disgrace upon her husband.

My guess is that this passage in Deuteronomy came about after a real life incident that was not addressed by the law. No doubt there are other interpretations.

There is another subjective observation I neglected to mention previously that helps me with my faith. Until the entire known universe is fully explained by science, I believe there is room for God. Purely a subjective belief on my part and I freely admit it.

I'm not sure I have been of any help in this challenge, but I have truly enjoyed the exchange. I will, of course, be glad to respond to any questions you may have from this post.

If you would like to continue a discussion via private e-mail, please feel free to contact a moderator about it. I would greatly appreciate continuing the conversation if you are willing.

Regardless, I wish you the best as you continue to raise the hard questions and explore the answers. May you find that peace which passes understanding as you continue on this journey of discovery.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

In post #11 you told me what you believe Jesus offers me.

I told you what Jesus actually says and I can introduce you to many living people who have the miracles he promises.
The Queen of the South travelled to see Solomon, now greater than Solomon's glory is available for you to see.

If you visit a meeting you will hear testimonies, and the orderly operation of the gifts of God's Spirit. In these things God will be speaking directly to you showing he knows your heart and providing the evidence you need. Then if you are prepared to be humble you can receive the same.

www.revivalusa.org

 

[IndyEllis]

Well, I know you can pray to God to help you with your faith, or to give you some faith. That helped me during a low period. It really worked.

It is good you are asking questions, and inquiring and wanting more than a superficial "faith" or "belief" because the deeper your knowledge of the things of God, the better your faith will be. I was once upon a time (way when I was 20) belonged to a Pentecostal style church. Never did I feel so empty, but as I reached out and learned about other churches and another side of what they believed from Scripture, then I began to realize no one church had all of the answers. I prayed to find a church that did have everything. I believe I have found it.

I definitely understand your point. The I went to a Pentecostal church as a kid many years ago and, as such, recognize the influence. That said, I definitely wouldn't consider me a former (solo) ex-Pentecostal. Over the years (through a church change of my parents and associated with various relocations) I have attended a few different churchs including various threads of Protestantism.

Anyhow in the last few years, my research has included Orthodoxy and I saw some new points in that.

However...

I do have to say, I can't just do what you did. My issue is not with a denomination or simplistic oh-I-got-my-feelings-hurt disappointment with a specific church body or experience.

Looking at your post I could tweak just a few words and have a justification for a different Wiccan conven.

Or crystals or practically any false belief (yet another absurd example).

Again, my issue is a LACK OF EVIDENCE. I do not want to be gullibly tricked into any false belief. I want the TRUTH.

Anyhow, thanks for your interest.

 

[IndyEllis]

I told you what Jesus actually says and I can introduce you to many living people who have the miracles he promises.

OK, this is very good.

We're starting to "peel the onion" in this conversation thread.

You are asserting that you told me "what Jesus actually says."

I would presume this is based upon the authority of the Bible.

Now, trying not to step into the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority or special pleading, how do you know the Bible (actually I do mean a Bible, a specific canon) is inspired by God?

The Queen of the South travelled to see Solomon, now greater than Solomon's glory is available for you to see.

I wasn't familiar with this one so I went ahead and Googled.

I saw:

There is little, if any, evidence of the remains of Solomon's temple in Jerusalem today. The recent work of Kathleen Kenyon in Jerusalem has revealed a few structures in the northern part of the city which may be Solomonic but there is no certainty. If there are any remains left, they would be under the sacred enclosure of the Muslims known as the Dome of the Rock...

http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/arch6.htm

I also saw something on the Tel Dan inscription with I already was familiar with.

I went ahead and took another look at the story in 1 Kings 10.

Anyhow, what specific archeological evidence are you referring to?

If you visit a meeting you will hear testimonies, and the orderly operation of the gifts of God's Spirit. In these things God will be speaking directly to you showing he knows your heart and providing the evidence you need. Then if you are prepared to be humble you can receive the same.

www.revivalusa.org

Again, true, true.

Back to the point on the Wiccans or crystals or whatever made up belief.

Again, some minor tweaking...

If you visit a [coven] you will hear testimonies, and the orderly operation of the [God and Godess]. In these things [the elements] will be speaking directly to you showing [they] knows your heart and providing the evidence you need. Then if you are prepared to be humble you can receive the same.

And the deceptions of any mumbo jumbo can gullibly be believed. There must be a higher standard. At least there must be for me. My mind and potential soul are worth more.

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. ~ 1 Timothy 4:16

23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. ~ 2 Timothy 2:23-26

It is in fact foolish and stupid arguments that I am trying to avoid. Hence, my references to common logical fallacies from time to time.

I am not promoting any sort of evidence-less belief system (such as crystals, Wiccan, or whatever). I only mention these mumbo jumbo examples of what kinds of false belief needs to be avoided and why. Simply I am expecting a much higher standard for Christ than what any made up mumbo jumbo religion or cult could pass.

I have tried to keep this discussion focused on a need for actual evidence (so as to, in fact, avoid foolishness).

I appreciate you taking the time to gently instruct.

Of all this post, back to the key question...

Trying not to step into the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority or special pleading, how do you know the Bible (actually I do mean a Bible, a specific canon) is inspired by God?

Thank you.

 

[IndyEllis]

First, I am glad you didn't feel insulted about my observations on ORU.

No worries. I actually met Oral a few times and he seemed like a really nice, genuine guy.

Thanks for the link about the resurrection debate. It is most interesting once I was able to get to the website. (The link may be a bit off compared to the website path)

I don't think there's any "debate." Just different timelines in the different gospels.

Again, I come back to the topic of evidence. The conflicting timelines in the different gospels, at least in a small way, evidence something. What do they evidence? The infallibility of these books? The inspiration of these books? The mythological possibilities of these books?

The evidence demands a verdict.

Regarding my attempt at logic regarding the resurrection, your points are well made. My mistake for not researching other faiths more thoroughly and thinking a little more deeply.

No worries. I truthfully have done only a moderate study on comparative religion (scientific reading has been a greater part of the time of my reading). And my study on comparative religion was not to find another alternative to my current faith. But to understand them better , specifically to see how fundamentally different was the rationale and the apologetics of the Christian believer, for that which is believed, vs. the devout adherents of other religions, for why they believe what they believe.

Regarding my observation about random chance and statistics, the reply was:

But isn't this supporting the benefit of the belief, not the validity of the belief.​

Possibly. The above question/response appears to be a gray area to me. Is that emptiness when I attempt to turn away from theism a validation that turning away from theism a mistake? I like to think so, but cannot prove that it is the benefit of the belief. Like the Bible, this may be a matter of interpretation.

There's a lot of writing in sciences around this. A good search on the "God gene" would get one started.

It is a fundamental question of humanity. From the Billy Graham side it would be "Do you feel loney tonight?" Then from the scientific point of view, there are very interesting questions on the theory of religion.

Why do we tend to want to believe? One explanation is that God made us with this longing. Another is that it was and is necessary to cope with consciousness in the midst of a universe being so messy and difficult to comprehend. I honestly don't know why myself. But I continue to read. And to learn. Otherwise I would have to have though I arrogantly had my theology figured out in the naivity of my childhood.

Regarding the verse in Deuteronomy, it is my understanding the reason the wife would be punished so extremely is that she is disgracing her husband either by exposing his nakedness (definitely a concern in ancient Judaism) or finishing the fight prematurely and thus disgracing him by hurting him rather than the assailant. Either way she is seen as bringing disgrace upon her husband.

My guess is that this passage in Deuteronomy came about after a real life incident that was not addressed by the law. No doubt there are other interpretations.

Again back to the evidence. Is this evidence to an unchanging God? Is this evidence to moral absolutes? Or is this evidence of human authorship and of cultural and temporal specificity and norms and mores?

There is another subjective observation I neglected to mention previously that helps me with my faith. Until the entire known universe is fully explained by science, I believe there is room for God. Purely a subjective belief on my part and I freely admit it.

Wouldn't this just be God of the gaps?

Sam Harris' End of Faith builds upon the issues of this considerably. (OK, so I've read a lot more than McDowell, Strobel, Geisler, Lewis, Miller, Collins, ...)

I'm not sure I have been of any help in this challenge, but I have truly enjoyed the exchange. I will, of course, be glad to respond to any questions you may have from this post.

You have been of help. It is good to discourse with a Christian who has a good amount of Biblical scholarship and doesn't just takes things simplisitically as prima facia.

If you would like to continue a discussion via private e-mail, please feel free to contact a moderator about it. I would greatly appreciate continuing the conversation if you are willing.

I just may. I'm a little reluctant to do that though.

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true -- even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. ~ 1 John 5:20

A transcendent God can make himself known.

Regardless, I wish you the best as you continue to raise the hard questions and explore the answers. May you find that peace which passes understanding as you continue on this journey of discovery.

It is tough to raise the hard questions and to pursue the answers. I hope I do find peace in the end.

I once did have peace that passes all understanding. In fact, I may have even had peace in absence of understanding.

 

[IndyEllis]

OK, so I was preparing for next week's Bible study (yes, I go to a weekly Bible study). It is a Bible study on doctrinal founations. I picked it because that's what I'm struggling with.

Next week's topic is on relationships.

The key passage for the bible study is the following from Matthew 4.

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Additionally some late manuscripts have verse 44 as:

44But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you,and pray for those who persecute you.

Whether or not this little addition is "part of the Bible" or "inspired by God" is another little discussion, but I did my homework (like always...) and saw the following passages related to:

- the origins and the context of the eye-for-an-eye and
- an example of how God treats those who curse him (for reconciling "bless those who curse you" and "be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Here's an interesting passage on the heavenly Father handling those who curse Him...

10 Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12 They put him in custody until the will of the LORD should be made clear to them.

13 Then the LORD said to Moses: 14 "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

17 " 'If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death. 18 Anyone who takes the life of someone's animal must make restitution—life for life. 19 If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. 21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a man must be put to death. 22 You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.' " 23 Then Moses spoke to the Israelites, and they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him. The Israelites did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Back to the evidence question. What is this evidence of? Evidence of an unchanging God? Of moral absolutes? Or of human imaginations and authorship?

Help me out here guys. I'm reading the Bible like never before.

If anybody else new wants to join in here, please do.

1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. ~ 2 Timothy 4:1-5

I really don't think I'm looking to "suit my own desires" here. Quite the opposite in fact. I'm looking for the REAL DEAL so I can KNOW it is the TRUTH so I can FOLLOW the TRUTH. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It is exactly MYTHs that I do not want.

Here are some definitions of myth:

- A traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people (wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)
- Legendary narrative, usually of gods and heroes, or a theme that expresses the ideology of a culture (usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/oal/gloss.htm)
- A popular belief that is false or unsupported by facts (www.plimoth.org/learn/history/glossary.asp)
- A legend, usually made up in part of historical events, that helps define the beliefs of a people and that often has evolved as an explanation for rituals and natural phenomena (www.iclasses.org/assets/literature/literary_glossary.cfm)
- An ill-founded belief, usually based on limited experience, given uncritical acceptance by members of a group, especially in support of existing or traditional practices and institutions (www.gecdf.com/diversity/glossary.html)

Here are some definitions of true and truth:

- A fact that has been verified (wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)
- Conformity to reality or actuality (wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)
- Genuine: not pretended (wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)
- That which is universally and at all times the determining basis for the reality of existence. Factuality, and the which exists regardless of view point or relative opinion (www.eoni.com/~visionquest/library/glossary.html)

Help me out here guys. We're in season.

 

[Joykins]

So I guess my question is, what do you do with stuff you don't have evidence for? How can you believe something as truth when it just as easily (perhaps even moreso per Occam's Razor) have been just made up a really long time again and incrementally added to and adjusted to suit the times at hand?

Is it good or useful or profitable in any way?

 

[Joykins]

Whether or not this little addition is "part of the Bible" or "inspired by God" is another little discussion, but I did my homework (like always...) and saw the following passages related to

- the origins and the context of the eye-for-an-eye
- an example of how God treats those who curse him (for reconciling "bless those who curse you" and "be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Here's an interesting passage on the heavenly Father handling those who curse Him...

10 Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12 They put him in custody until the will of the LORD should be made clear to them.

13 Then the LORD said to Moses: 14 "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.
17 " 'If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death. 18 Anyone who takes the life of someone's animal must make restitution—life for life. 19 If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. 21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a man must be put to death. 22 You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.' " 23 Then Moses spoke to the Israelites, and they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him. The Israelites did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Back to the evidence question. What is this evidence of? Evidence of an unchanging God? Of moral absolutes? Or of human imaginations and authorship?

Help me out here guys. I'm reading the Bible like never before.

If anybody else new wants to join in here, please do.

Could you conclude that the Jesus of Matthew wants us as people to be BETTER (according to the principles Jesus taught) than the understanding of God's instructions in the Penteteuch as indicated in this passage? That leads down even more slippery slopes, but interesting ones.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think your conversation with OCG is very interesting and I don't want to interrupt it. Let me just introduce myself as an eavesdropper, so if I interject a small comment now and then, it won't be disruptive.

I'm a mom in my 50s, 3/4 the way through a seminary degree & taking a break from it, but still plan to go into ministry in a few years. I have a son, 22, who lives at home, has a job & is going through a process right now very, very similar to what you describe, so I've been reading Harris & Dawkins a little bit, myself.

My 14-yo daughter is very involved in church & our church is pretty conservative. Actually, too fundy for me. I am afraid what my daughter is learning in church will give her a faith as brittle as my son's. He, like you, wants to know the TRUTH. He was always a little scientist growing up. I can remember him losing his first tooth and declaring that he didn't believe in the tooth fairy, but he was going to put his tooth under his pillow, and asked mom & dad to promise not to put money there for him. Even at that age, he wanted to know for sure whether or not there was a tooth fairy more than he wanted a dollar, or dollars for all the rest of the teeth he would lose.

I've been wondering about whether I did the right thing back then, respecting his wishes.

He's given me a lot of the arguments you've given, and I've told him"I don't believe god's like that, either," or "I don't believe the Bible is that kind of book, either," more times than I can count. In fact, some of our conversations have led me to confess that if it weren't for the wild story about golden plates and magic glasses, there are some things about Mormon theology that make more sense to me than classical Christian theism of the scholastic or fundamentalist varieties.

OTOH, there is something mystical that I believe in. But I left certainty behind a long time ago.

I would like to believe. I would like to go back to the old comfortable life.

I still fully intend to live the same life, to live by the same morality. The issue is fundamentally one of disbelief.

This is the one point I wanted to comment on. I can truly say, "I have decided to follow Jesus. No turning back." The second Matrix movie is a parallel for me. Neo's conversations with Morpheus and the Oracle about faith seeking understanding, rather than the other way around, finally made that concept make sense to me.

So for myself, I have decided to follow Jesus. I don't expect ever again to have certainty about any of the theories of religion, but still I don't see myself turning back from following Jesus. And I wondered whether possibly there might be an element off that same sort of thought or feeling in the part of your post I quoted. As often as I've heard otherwise, I really do feel like this is a good place to be, spiritually. If this is where your path is leading you, you won't be the first one to pass this way, although hardly anyone ever talks about it, so it often feels like a lonely place.

Please carry on & I'll return to lurking here.

 

[CaDan]

At risk of having my Christian icon subject to a heresy trial . . .

I don't think the Faith is about affirming a series of impossible propositions. The Faith is about being faithful. As Real Live Preacher points out:

Likewise, we think having faith means being convinced God exists in the same way we are convinced a chair exists. People who cannot be completely convinced of God's existence think faith is impossible for them.

Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith.

I learned that it doesn't matter in the least that I be convinced of God's existence. Whether or not God exists is none of my business, really. What do I know of existence? I don't even know how the VCR works.

What does matter is whether or not I am faithful. I think faithful is a hell of a good word. It still has some of its original shine. It still calls us to action.​

http://www.reallivepreacher.com/node/16

And, as seebs writes:

We are not better than the atheists. We don't even necessarily understand God enough better than they do to make any real difference. If you took all the knowledge of all the Christians on this site, and put it all together, and tried to represent that as a percentage of God's true nature, the resulting number would be so small you couldn't print it in a single post without using exponents.​

http://www.seebs.net/log/archives/000186.html

Peace and blessings.

 

[IndyEllis]

Is it good or useful or profitable in any way?

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. ~ Proverbs 14:12

 

[CaDan]

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. ~ Proverbs 14:12

Proof-texting. You wouldn't accept it from anybody else, so why do you do it?

 

[KeithJM]

At risk of having my Christian icon subject to a heresy trial . . .

I don't think the Faith is about affirming a series of impossible propositions. The Faith is about being faithful. As Real Live Preacher points out:

Likewise, we think having faith means being convinced God exists in the same way we are convinced a chair exists. People who cannot be completely convinced of God's existence think faith is impossible for them.

Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith.

I learned that it doesn't matter in the least that I be convinced of God's existence. Whether or not God exists is none of my business, really. What do I know of existence? I don't even know how the VCR works.

What does matter is whether or not I am faithful. I think faithful is a hell of a good word. It still has some of its original shine. It still calls us to action.​

​

Faith does necessarily entail being convinced of the existence of God. I have faith that the chair will support me because I'm convinced that it exists. If I am to have faith that God will support me in my times of need, then I must necessarily be convinced that God exists

My own struggle to find faith has been an attempt to convince myself that God exists, and contrary to it being none of my business, it is every bit my business whether or not God exists, as an answer to the question would have the deepest ramifications in my life.

 

[IndyEllis]

Proof-texting. You wouldn't accept it from anybody else, so why do you do it?

As I struggle with the inconsistencies.