What do you believe in?

[Hentenza]

First, let me just point out the obvious. This conversation is NOT BRINGING GOD ANY GLORY. It is in fact stirring up emotion. I will say that GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING. HE KNOWS EVERY LITTLE TINY DETAIL ABOUT EVERYONE WHO HAS EVER LIVED. HE IS ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, AND OMNI PRESENT. THERE IS NOTHING HE DOES NOT KNOW. HE KNOWS THE WAYS OF THE WICKED, THE WAYS OF THE RIGHTEOUS, AND ALL THE DETAILS BETWEEN. ONCE AGAIN, GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING. GOD IS NEVER SHOCKED TO DISCOVER SOMETHING, BECAUSE HE ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING.

That's true but screaming it will only bring out the emotion in people.

 

[98cwitr]

[...]I will say that GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING. HE KNOWS EVERY LITTLE TINY DETAIL ABOUT EVERYONE WHO HAS EVER LIVED. HE IS ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, AND OMNI PRESENT. THERE IS NOTHING HE DOES NOT KNOW. HE KNOWS THE WAYS OF THE WICKED, THE WAYS OF THE RIGHTEOUS, AND ALL THE DETAILS BETWEEN. ONCE AGAIN, GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING. GOD IS NEVER SHOCKED TO DISCOVER SOMETHING, BECAUSE HE ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING.

I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you on that.

 

[Robs07M6S]

As another poster put, the problem with this "interpretation" is that the versed eosnt' say that God foreknew the faith of people, it says he foreknew the people themselves. No where is faith referenced as the object of God's knowledge. People are the object of God's knowledge, and when God "knows" someone, it doesnt' simply mean that God knows "about" the person, but rather, that he knows them in a personal, lloving, meaningful way.

Now wait just a minute, God exist outside of time correct? he is every where all at once correct? I mean there is no amount of time or space that Gods presense doesnt exist since he is not limited to time or space.

Therefore its possible that God could still elect based off of who he knows will come to faith in him because God doesnt have to look down the tunnels of time as many would say because God exist in the past, present and future all at the same time! Therefore as far as God is concerned he is already in heaven right now with the ones whom he elected!

Its only man that is limited by time, not God.

 

[histruth]

Sorry Hentenza, did not mean to scream, just trying to make the point as clear as possible. I wasn't upset; whenever I use capital letters, it's just because I'm trying to direct attention to that or those words. I really believe we should all share the gospel of Jesus Christ with EVERYONE we can. If He can save me, He can save ANYONE. God bless.

 

[twin1954]

TITLE: DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY AND HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY
DATE: 7/31/11
Introduction:
There are two things that are surely taught in the Scriptures which has been the subject of controversy for centuries: God is an absolute sovereign and man is responsible. My purpose this morning isn’t to stir up the controversy but to comfort the Lord’s sheep and instruct those that oppose themselves in the truth of God. Men have been attempting to reconcile these seemingly opposing thoughts by all sorts of methods and imaginary constructs of theology. I am not going to try and reconcile them because they simply need no reconciliation. They are both true and they walk hand in hand together. There is no paradox that must be accepted nor parallel truths that can never be joined. The simple fact is that man struggles with these things because he will not give up his supposed right to self determination and bow to God.
Because of time constraints I will in no way do a complete and exhaustive study on the subject. My hope is to lay the foundation on which you can build. I will not settle the question but I hope to at least give you some solid ground to stand on when faced with the enemy so that your faith is unmoved.

First: God is an absolute Sovereign.
What do I mean when I say an absolute Sovereign? Simply put it means He who rules absolutely. There is nothing in His dominion, and His dominion is over everything that exists or can even be imagined, that He doesn’t control absolutely. There is not the smallest particle or largest mass that isn’t under His perfect control and rule. The bark of a dog or the highest thoughts of men are under His sovereign rule. If it were not so then He just isn’t God. If anything is outside of His absolute sovereign control and rule then He must react to it as a man reacts to things he doesn’t control. If God reacts then He necessarily changes and that is impossible. The very foundation of our hope is the unchanging God. He says, “I am the Lord I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” Mal. 3:6 James tells us that with the Lord is neither variableness or shadow of turning. Jam. 1:17 That means that if God has set His love on you there is nothing you can ever do to change it or diminish it. Those He loves He loves without conditions or limits.
Is the absolute sovereignty of God the teaching of the Scriptures? Well lets see. I can only give you a couple of passages but the Scriptures are full of the sovereign rule of God.
And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
(Dan 4:34-35)



Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake. Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
(Psa 115:1-3)

The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
(Pro 16:1)


The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
(Pro 16:4)

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
(Pro 16:9)

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
(Pro 16:33)

Second: Man is responsible for all that he does.
I wish I had a dime for every time I had some fool tell me that if God is absolutely sovereign then man must be a robot and therefore not responsible for anything he does. I can honestly say that if I am God’s robot I am happy for it to be so. But I am not and neither are you. Man does have a will and exercises it all the time. What folks have difficulty with is that God’s sovereignty destroys man’s free-will. Man has a will and he exercises it constantly but his will is subject and slave to his nature, his circumstances and the things that influence him. He is free to choose within the limits of his ability and the circumstances that he finds himself in. The will of man can’t even stop a germ from invading his body and killing him much less keep God from doing what He pleases with him.
Now I said that man’s will is free within the limits of his nature, circumstances and influences. I ask then who it is that controls all those things? Surely you know that the answer is God.
So the question remains is it necessary for man to have a free will in order for him to be responsible to God. The obvious answer is no. Man’s responsibility is not derived from his ability but from his ownership. God owns him. All of creation belongs to God and He can and does what He will with it. That includes the believer and the unbeliever. Does He not tell us that He owns the cattle on a thousand hills? Psa. 50:10 Is it not then just as clear that He owns all men as well? God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel, Acts 17:30, and because He commands it all men are responsible to do it. But that in no way implies that they have ability to do it. The question then arises is it then just for God to condemn if they have no ability? Yes it is for two reasons: God says it is, that ought to be enough to settle the question, and justice doesn’t take into account ability. The law may command me to do something and has the right to punish me if I don’t without regard to my ability to do it. While that may go against man’s concept of fairness and justice it nevertheless is true. The law isn’t fair it is strict and unbending. Our concept of justice allows for mitigating circumstances, and it should be so, because we have no ability to control everything and are subject to changing circumstances but that isn’t the case with God. We can easily forgive trespasses against us because we are ourselves trespassers but not God. We can allow for the faults and failings of men because we are ourselves faulty but not God. He created us upright and good but we have willfully given up that which He gave us.

So you see that God’s absolute sovereignty is in perfect harmony with man’s responsibility. There is no conflict or paradox to be wondered at. This truth will comfort the child of God and ought to strike fear in the rebel. May God be pleased to apply these things to our hearts. Amen

 

[cubinity]

Sorry Hentenza, did not mean to scream, just trying to make the point as clear as possible. I wasn't upset; whenever I use capital letters, it's just because I'm trying to direct attention to that or those words. I really believe we should all share the gospel of Jesus Christ with EVERYONE we can. If He can save me, He can save ANYONE. God bless.

Welcome to communicating over the Internet, histruth.
Writing things in all caps is universally understood as yelling here on the Internet, regardless of your intentions. Consider using an alternate method of highlighting posts for emphasis, like writing them in huge red letters or something like that.

 

[GrayAngel]

I have shown you, using scripture, how the doctrine of predestination does a good job at throwing much of the Bible to the curb in Post #100, which has not been addressed.

I beg to differ. Free will is what tosses a huge chunk of the Bible out the window. Scriptures provided by free will proponents are sparse and taken out of context.

For example:

2 Peter 3:8-9 - But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The point of this verse is at the beginning of the paragraph: God is patient. He's holding back His judgement for those who would be saved. It's not saying that God wills every single person in the world to be given salvation. To claim that He does is to ignore the rest of the Bible.

God hardened the hearts of Jesus audience, as I've mentioned a few times, SO THAT even after witnessing miracles they would not believe. If God wanted them to believe, don't you think He would have done the opposite and softened their hearts to Him, rather than shutting them off? Does God have multiple personality disorder, so that He ends up condemning the ones He desires so much to save?

Also, I would like to say that it is not very Christ like to tell a person that their response is "painful to read". However, it has been my experience that ALMOST EVERYONE who believes in predestination is likes to throw insults around. I am not upset at you, I'm just making a point. Also, Jesus speaks very clearly to those who attempt to shut up the kingdom from others. (But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.) Mathew 23:13 I still love ya though.

It was meant to be friendly advice. It's common knowledge that massive blocks of texts are difficult to read.

Separate your paragraphs, and it would improve the readability of your writing.

This reminds me of something I've learned in my studies in psychology. During a game (football, basketball, whatever) both sides always believe the refs were working in the opposite team's favor.

You think that people who believe in predestination are more judgmental? Ha! Try jumping the fence for a while, see how people react to you. Predestination is the view people take most offense against. My parents refuse to even discuss it.

Be careful who you call a hypocrite. The Bible also warns against picking a splinter out of one's eye when you've got a plank in your own eye.

 

[His_disciple3]

Also, I would like to say that it is not very Christ like to tell a person that their response is "painful to read". However, it has been my experience that ALMOST EVERYONE who believes in predestination is likes to throw insults around. I am not upset at you, I'm just making a point. Also, Jesus speaks very clearly to those who attempt to shut up the kingdom from others. (But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.) Mathew 23:13 I still love ya though.

hold on here I think you must have me mixed up with someone else, I don't recall ever telling anyone that their response was "painful to read" I have only said that God is all knowing that He knew who would call upon Him and those are the ones that He predestined, and by that knowledge not just some radom pick , but by that foreknowledge He chose the elect! I don't know who you have me mixed up with, but please be careful about this in the future,

 

[His_disciple3]

His disciple3, the verse that you posted proves the point I was making that, EVERYTHING GOD DOES, IS ACCORDING TO HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE. He KNEW ahead of time who would accept Jesus, and for this reason, He ELECTED TO SAVE US. That is why we are called the ELECT. It was not like all the angels voted on who God should save. He simply KNEW who WOULD, and ELECTED TO SAVE US. Also, I have to agree with Jake 255 that it is IN FACT, GOD'S DESIRE TO SAVE ALL, as the MANY verses that have already been posted prove. The main reason certain people believe in predestination, is because they do not want to believe that there is any way they could sin beyond the grace of God. I do not believe that a true Christian could sin beyond God's grace; but you don't need predestination for that. All we need is His promise. For He hath said, " I will never leave you, nor forsake you. " Hebrews 13:5

Love in Christ

if indeed the elect means the saved ones then why did Paul say that the elect needed to obtain salvation?????


2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV

 

[His_disciple3]

We must take the whole counsel of the Bible in order to reach any conclusions, you can not take one verse such as you have and ascribe it to a doctrine of predestination.

Paul even said to the unbelieving Gentiles "For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ Acts 17:28 NIV. In other words all men are God's children in a sense, (not in the spiritual rebirth sense), but in the creation of humans in the very image of God.

It is that very nature in is that will lead us to one of two responses 1). Pride, an attempt to elevate ourselves above God or 2). Submission, to submit to the authority of God and receive His free gift, partaking of the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4.

We all have body, soul and spirit in which the spirit is the very reason men are w/out excuse if we reject the witness of God "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Romans 1:20 NIV

We are all tied to the Creator and all of us created in His likeness, His desire being that none would perish, but ALL come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

hello I am not preaching calvinism, I was talking with someone about the choices in this poll and predestination is in scripture and free will is in scriptures, and they should not contradict one another. so I said that one of the choices in the poll should be both.

so my belief over all about the "elect" is that the Elect are the Israelites/Jews. God's chosen/elect Nation.

Deuteronomy 7:6-7
6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
KJV

the jewish nation is clearly whom Paul was referring to when He said:
2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV

 

[GrayAngel]

hold on here I think you must have me mixed up with someone else, I don't recall ever telling anyone that their response was "painful to read" I have only said that God is all knowing that He knew who would call upon Him and those are the ones that He predestined, and by that knowledge not just some radom pick , but by that foreknowledge He chose the elect! I don't know who you have me mixed up with, but please be careful about this in the future,

He was talking to me, and I already addressed that in my previous post. I was letting them know that huge chunks of text are difficult to read, and breaking them up a bit would be better. They took it the wrong way.

if indeed the elect means the saved ones then why did Paul say that the elect needed to obtain salvation?????


2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV

Being elect is not all we need to obtain salvation. Being elect simply means that we were preordained to come to the point of salvation. Paul believed in predestination, and he wanted to serve God in bringing His elect into the church. He could have sat back and done nothing, knowing God would save those He elected to be saved, but Paul wanted to be an active participant.

 

[histruth]

Why don't we all just let God's Word say what it says. We all know John 3:16. The word world in that verse, is the Greek word kosmos; and the definition is, The external beauty and arrangement of the creation including all of it's inhabitants. There is another word for world, and that is aion which means an age of time. When you read the Greek, the word kosmos is used in John 3:16 and in ALL other verses of scripture pertaining to who Christ died for that uses the English word world, such as 1st John 2:2, John 3:17, John 1:29, and many others. If you notice, He never says, behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the elect. He does in fact say, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29 I think we can all get confused at times as to what certain verses of scripture mean; and that is why we are not to read the Bible like some novel. We are to study the Bible. 1st Timothy 2:15 If you do some research, you will find that almost, if not all verses in scripture pertaining to predestination are centered around Israel.

Israel are God's chosen ones. But, they rejected Him, and He knew they would. It was not His will that they reject Him. He simply knew they would, and caused everything to work accordingly. And no! He did not react to this. He had all this worked out back in the dateless past, long before He ever began to create anything. For this purpose, God grafted them out, so that we(the church)could be grafted in. Romans 11:19-22 This verse also points out that, while we may have been grafted in, we can be cut off, if we do not continue in faith. Also, they(Israel) can be grafted back in, if they will believe. Paul goes on and on about the Jews being blinded because of their unbelief and backslidding in Romans chapter 9.

Romans 9 and 10 are some of the main chapters that Calvanists use to try to prove predestination. However, if you read these verses in context, you will see that the entire two chapters are about the Jews. Once again, I would like to point out that Eve chose to eat the fruit. If anyone attempts to say that God made her do it, than that person has some serious problems. God does not cause sin. Sin is against the very nature of our lovong Heavenly Father. Stop, and think about what you are saying. Remember, all the things Jesus said about love. He told us to love our enemies, and pray for them. Do you think He said that in vain? He also said to preach the Gospel to every creature(not just the chosen) Do you think He was just kidding?

Paul even goes as far as to say "I become all things to all men, in order that I might save some" Also, the wall verses I originally posted are just a few of the many verses in God's Word that make it clear that Jesus loves and died for all sinners. There is one verse that sticks out among those, and that is a verse spoken by Jesus Himself which says, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32 It does not say, I will draw the elect to Me. It says what it says; as do the others.

Anyway, I love all of you, and it is my prayer that you will come to realize that our Savior is the all sufficient Savior, and His blood has no limit. It is more than enough to cover the sins of the whole world. (1st John 2:2)

 

[98cwitr]

"The acclaimed Czech playwright Karel Capek (1890-1938) made the first use of the word ‘robot’, from the Czech word for forced labor or serf."

RRG/Learn More/History

 

[Skala]

Hi Robert,

I'm sorry for your struggles. You wrote: Problem is the Bible says no where that fallen man has a free will as much as I would like to believe that he does.

Well, if by that you mean that after reading through the Scriptures you can't find this exact statement: "Man has free will.", then, yes, I'd agree with you. But if by that you mean that you can't find anywhere in the Scriptures that speaks to our having free will, I'd have to say you should brush up on your reading comprehension skills.

Here's just one:
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

Oh, and another:
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty."

Oh, and maybe a couple more:
"I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life"

"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;..."

Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me."

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

Ignoring what they said, Jesus told the synagogue ruler, "Don't be afraid; just believe."

You see, friend, in every one of these statements made by the Lord himself, there is no coercion. No, "those who are predestined". No, nothing but plain and simple, "If you have faith..." Anyway, you are of course free to teach whatever seems right to you.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

With, all due respect Ted, those verses do not teach that man has a free will.

A verse that commands man to do something is not teaching that man has free will. The most one can conclude from the verse is "God commands this of man".

And a verse that says "if man does X, then Y will happen" also doesn't teach that man has a free will. The most one can conclude from the verse is that "if man does X, why will happen".

Neither of those verses teach anything about man's will and how "free" it is. In fact, elsewhere in the Bible we learn that man's will is a slave, not free, it is inclined towards rebellion and away from holiness and God. It is incapable of doing good, as far as God counts good. It is a slave until Christ sets it free. You would have me believe it is free already and needs no key for the lock!

Christ says that nobody has the innate, natural ability to come to Him without divine intervention. This destroys free will completely. By myself, my will is not free to come to Christ. God must grant it to me and draw me before i am able to do it. That's not free will brother. That's a description of man's deadness in sin and the necessity for God's grace to intervene.

As a disclaimer: the ability for man to choose what he desires is not what free will is

Technically speaking, "free will" would be the ability to choose to desire whatever you want to desire. Nobody can do that. No fallen, unregenerate, rebel against God can simply conjure up the desire to desire to obey God. If he had free will, he could, but he doesn't, thus God's converting, heart-changing grace is mandatory.

No such thing as free will as far as the Bible is concerned.

Again, the command to perform certain actions is not something you can conclude that man has a free will from.

Nor is the statement "if x, then y" something the same conclusion can be made from.

 

[histruth]

Also, of the subject, I have posted an article about the ongoing turmoil between Israel and Palastine that is ramping up fast. You can check it out if you want at histruthunfolding.com

 

[Skala]

Now wait just a minute, God exist outside of time correct? he is every where all at once correct? I mean there is no amount of time or space that Gods presense doesnt exist since he is not limited to time or space.

Therefore its possible that God could still elect based off of who he knows will come to faith in him because God doesnt have to look down the tunnels of time as many would say because God exist in the past, present and future all at the same time! Therefore as far as God is concerned he is already in heaven right now with the ones whom he elected!

Its only man that is limited by time, not God.

I have two responses Robert:

1) assuming what you say is true, that God doesn't look "forward" into time, but rather, simply already knows, and has always known who has faith in him (and so elects on that basis), why do "Free will" salvation people (aka arminians and such) use verses in the Bible that speak of Gods "foreknowledge" as prooftexts for that very idea?

2) The fact is, the technical ongoings of whether God "knows in advance" or simply "knows all the time" is irrelevant and doesn't matter. The point is his: no where does the Bible say that God based his choice of us on our faith.

For starters, the Bible is clear that faith is a gift from God anyways (Eph 2:8-9, Ph 1:29, and many more, etc). So it makes no sense for the "Free willer" to argue that God chooses based on the faith he foresees. At the end of the day God is still sovereignly choosing who is ultimately saved, because hes' the one that gives the faith that he supposedly based his choice on to begin with!

 

[Skala]

if indeed the elect means the saved ones then why did Paul say that the elect needed to obtain salvation?????


2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV

Whoever said that the definition means "the saved ones"? You made that up. You can't invent your own rules and impose them on everyone else.

The definition of elect is "chosen ones"

Some of God's elect aren't saved yet, hence the reason to preach the gospel (2 Tim 2:10. Some of God's elect aren't' even born yet, much less have they been justified by faith in Christ!

so you see brother your argument makes little sense

 

[98cwitr]

Some of God's elect aren't saved yet, hence the reason to preach the gospel (2 Tim 2:10.

I thought the elect we saved before the foundation of the world :/ Outside the constructs of time anyway...but I see your point. They aren't aware of their salvation is how I, personally, would phrase that; because technically they've always been saved, even before their very creation. I do agree with the majority of your sentiments though.

Ephesians 1:4


Romans 10:17-30
New International Version (NIV)
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”[a]

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”

20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”[c]

21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”[d

 

[Skala]

If you do some research, you will find that almost, if not all verses in scripture pertaining to predestination are centered around Israel.

So are Romans 8:28-30 about Israel? No, it's about all believers.
Is Acts 13:48 about Israel? Again, no. In fact the passage is about some Gentiles who believed, and Luke explains why.
Is 2 Thess 2:13 about Israel? Again, no, it's written to the church, believers.
Is 1 Cor 1 about Israel? Again, nope.
Is Eph 2:8-9 about Israel? Again, nope

So you see your assertion is pretty baseless my friend

Israel are God's chosen ones. But, they rejected Him, and He knew they would.

This oversimplifies things and forgets that the Apostle Paul makes the distinction between Physical Israel and Spiritual Israel, which also disproves your next assertion:

Romans 9 and 10 are some of the main chapters that Calvanists use to try to prove predestination. However, if you read these verses in context, you will see that the entire two chapters are about the Jews.

In Rom 9 Paul explicitly teaches that he is not talking about physical descendants of Abraham, but spiritual descendants. Aka believers, called out from both Jews and Gentiles:

Rom 9:6-8
(6) But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
(7) and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
(8) This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

And


Rom 9:22-24
(22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
(23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
(24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

So yet again, your arguments are refuted brother. Your assertion simply don't hold weight when we go look at the very chapters you made them about.

Once again, I would like to point out that Eve chose to eat the fruit. If anyone attempts to say that God made her do it, than that person has some serious problems. God does not cause sin. Sin is against the very nature of our lovong Heavenly Father. Stop, and think about what you are saying. Remember, all the things Jesus said about love. He told us to love our enemies, and pray for them. Do you think He said that in vain? He also said to preach the Gospel to every creature(not just the chosen) Do you think He was just kidding?

No Calvinist has ever asserted such a thing (That God "made" anyone sin), nor has anyone ever denied that Eve willingly chose to sin. Nor do Calvinists deny that the gospel needs to be preached to every creature. (Fact: the most well known and successfully evangelists in history are Calvinists. Spurgeon, Whitfield, Edwards, etc) So your paragraph here doesn't refute or prove anything either...?

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32 It does not say, I will draw the elect to Me. It says what it says; as do the others.

It's amazing that you hound on "context" regarding Romans but not this verse brother. Did you not read a few verses earlier in this chapter where some Greeks had approached Jesus? And further down in the chapter we read that "God has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts...therefore they could not believe"

This leads the honest reader to conclude that by the phrase "I will draw all men to me" he doesn't mean he will draw each and every individual to him, but rather, he will draw both Jews and Gentiels to him, aka "all men". In you deny this then you have the Son and the Father working against eachother, you have the Trinity in chaos and not cooperation and harmony. You have the Son drawing people that the Father is blinding and hardening, frustrating the Son's efforts.

Further, the word "Draw" doesn't mean "woo, persuade, entice", which it would have to mean for your argument to hold weight, but rather, the word means to drag, to compel, with authority or force. This is why in John 6 Jesus is speaking of an effectual drawing: all who are thus drawn do in fact come to Him (John 6:37) When God draws a man, the man is saved, period.

My 2c

 

[Skala]

I thought the elect we saved before the foundation of the world :/ Outside the constructs of time anyway...but I see your point. They aren't aware of their salvation is how I, personally, would phrase that; because technically they've always been saved, even before their very creation. I do agree with the majority of your sentiments though.

I understand what you're saying brother, but try to remember that "saved" is a broad term that contains many facets. Salvation is an experience that extends from eternity past to eternity future, and contains many things: election, predestination, calling, justification, sanctification, glorification, etc.

Technically speaking, justification is by faith alone. During our lives, in time, when we exercise faith in Christ, we are "justified". Justification is usually the thing people are referring to when they say the word "saved"

Justification is the act of being declared innocent before God's court. Since justification is by faith, we cannot be eternally justified.

making this distinction helps, I think. What do you say?