What do you believe in?

[twin1954]

1 Peter 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
KJV
predstined are the elect here it says the elect was according to His foreknowledge, His ways are not our ways nor His thoughts our thought!

The problem with the foreknowledge theory that you use is that it has nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word. What you are describing is foresight which is another word in the Greek altogether. More than that if you hold to a foresight kind of election then you simply can't get around salvation being by works. God foresaw what you would do, exercise faith, and therefore elected you on that basis. That is a works salvation without controversy. It would also mean that God reacted to what you do and therefore is not really omniscient. He must have learned something when He looked down through time and then made a decision to act accordingly. That also makes God changable in which case He can't really be trusted. Our hope rests in the unchanging faithfulness of God. There are so many inconsistencies with your views and problems that simple common sense wouldn't acknowledge to be true. You need to come up with a better reason why God's predestinating grace is so very much taught in the Scriptures. Even a child can see right through your so-called reasons.

 

[cubinity]

I still don't get why salvation not being based on works means nothing we do can have some role to play in salvation.

Jesus is the only one that brings the capability to save to the table, but that doesn't mean our being at the table is irrelevant.

 

[twin1954]

I still don't get why salvation not being based on works means nothing we do can have some role to play in salvation.

Jesus is the only one that brings the capability to save to the table, but that doesn't mean our being at the table is irrelevant.

The very definition of the word "do" leaves out man in the equation. We are simply the recipients of God's grace in sovereign mercy. We recieve grace in 2 ways: passively as a glass receives water. Then we receive actively as when we reach out and take the glass of water and drink it. The glass must receive the water passively first in order for the second to take place. The first is the regenerating work of the Spirit and always results in the second.

 

[cubinity]

The very definition of the word "do" leaves out man in the equation. We are simply the recipients of God's grace in sovereign mercy. We recieve grace in 2 ways: passively as a glass receives water. Then we receive actively as when we reach out and take the glass of water and drink it. The glass must receive the water passively first in order for the second to take place. The first is the regenerating work of the Spirit and always results in the second.

No, it doesn't.

 

[98cwitr]

God's Word is FULL TO THE TOP of verses that state with CLARITY, that Jesus Christ died and rose again for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Here are a few, And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (1st John 2:2) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, THE MAN, Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. (1st Timothy 2:3-6) For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that WHOSOEVER believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD THROUGH HIM, MIGHT BE SAVED. (John 3:17) For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED. (Romans 10:13) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. (John 12:32) For God is not slack concerning His promise as some count slackness; but is LONG SUFFERING toward us; not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. (2nd Peter 3:9) Truly these times of ignorance GOD OVERLOOKED, but now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT. (Acts 17:30) There are MANY other verses in the Bible that confirm the FACT that Jesus died ONCE FOR ALL. Yes. He knows who WILL and who WON'T come to Him. Just like He knew that even though He delayed the flood 120 years so Christ could preach to them through Noah, nobody would listen, and only Noah and his family were saved. He still preached to them because He is LONG SUFFERING and FULL OF COMPASSION. Also, If there was no free will, than how did Eve CHOOSE TO EAT THE FRUIT? I hope this helps, and I pray that whoever is reading this will come to know that our God is the God of all comfort and LOVE. For John also says, "GOD IS LOVE"

World of believers and faithful (John 3:17-18).

God = Love != God loves everyone

I propose the question in my sig to you, sir.

 

[Robs07M6S]

No, it doesn't.

Then please, tell us how it works?

 

[GrayAngel]

Really? Jesus Christ doesn't save us anymore?
The most important factor in the gift of salvation is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, we are offered the gift, and then we can receive it or reject it.

You're trying too hard to prove me wrong. Try to keep focused. Yes, it is Jesus who saved us. Who will receive Christ's salvation is God's choice.

Can't you see that the gospel is virtually untouched by either free will or predestination? Jesus died for our sins. That much is always true. Being elect doesn't mean that we don't need Jesus, but that we are destined to receive Him.

No, babies and children who die before their age of accountability - go to heaven.

Are you following? You say that we need faith to be saved. We both agree. But if you're going to try to claim that predestination means that babies don't go to Heaven, you're wrong.

I'm sure there are different variations of the doctrine of predestination, and it's good you know this.

Usually the doctrine of predestination states that the chosen are already justified at birth, which along with almost all of that particular doctrine, is unbibical and is contrary to what the Bible clearly states.

Yes, there are variations of every theory. I've found that, in most cases, what the majority of people believe to be true is usually wrong. But in this case, it's a simple difference in the meaning of the word.

Others see God as being outside of time, and having elected us means that we were always justified to Him. But I'm looking at it from within time, from our perspective. God does not change, but we do. And God chose a specific point in time to change us.

God's Word is FULL TO THE TOP of verses that state with CLARITY, that Jesus Christ died and rose again for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Here are a few, And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (1st John 2:2) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, THE MAN, Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. (1st Timothy 2:3-6) For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that WHOSOEVER believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD THROUGH HIM, MIGHT BE SAVED. (John 3:17) For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED. (Romans 10:13) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. (John 12:32) For God is not slack concerning His promise as some count slackness; but is LONG SUFFERING toward us; not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. (2nd Peter 3:9) Truly these times of ignorance GOD OVERLOOKED, but now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT. (Acts 17:30) There are MANY other verses in the Bible that confirm the FACT that Jesus died ONCE FOR ALL. Yes. He knows who WILL and who WON'T come to Him. Just like He knew that even though He delayed the flood 120 years so Christ could preach to them through Noah, nobody would listen, and only Noah and his family were saved. He still preached to them because He is LONG SUFFERING and FULL OF COMPASSION. Also, If there was no free will, than how did Eve CHOOSE TO EAT THE FRUIT? I hope this helps, and I pray that whoever is reading this will come to know that our God is the God of all comfort and LOVE. For John also says, "GOD IS LOVE"

In the future, you may want to break up your paragraphs a bit more. It would make it less painful to read.

The word "world" has multiple meanings. It can be used to refer all human beings, like you're choosing to interpret it, but that's not what was meant by it. Jesus did not die for the sins of the entire world's population, otherwise we would all be saved, with or without faith. Unbelievers still have their sins.

"World" could also refer to the world of unbelievers. But this is also not the correct interpretation. Otherwise, salvation would be for everyone but the Christians. And the Bible makes it quite clear that God hates the godless world and its ways.

This is the meaning of the word "world." Jesus died for the sins of the ones who would be saved, and salvation would reach throughout the whole globe. Today, Christianity exists in the Americas, Europe, Asia, Africa, it's virtually everywhere.

 

[cubinity]

Then please, tell us how it works?

I have rejected an analogy that isn't in the Bible, and an explanation that says we are passive recipients, which the Bible never says.

What we know of this topic , we know from what the Bible tells us.

If you think it works the way it is described described, then show me, from the Bible, where we are described as passive recipients.

Otherwise, I don't need a counterargument other than that isn't what the Bible describes to state that it doesn't happen that way.

 

[Robs07M6S]

If you think it works the way you have described, then show me, from the Bible, where we are described as passive recipients.

Otherwise, I don't need a counterargument other than that isn't what the Bible describes to state that it doesn't happen that way.

The way I have described? what are you talking about? I never said anything about it. I think your talking about twin 1954's post.

You told him he was wrong and so I simply asked you to explain it properly from the Bible.

 

[cubinity]

The way I have described? what are you talking about? I never said anything about it. I think your talking about twin 1954's post.

You told him he was wrong and so I simply asked you to explain it properly from the Bible.

Sorry. I'm sort of out of it.
My apologies.
You are right.

I will, apologetically, answer your question in a bit.

Thanks for pointing out my error.

God bless.

 

[Robs07M6S]

Sorry. I'm sort of out of it.
My apologies.
You are right.

I will, apologetically, answer your question in a bit.

Thanks for pointing out my error.

God bless.

Its alright and no problem, I just wanted to hear your side of it as well. Thank you.

 

[cubinity]

The Bible, particularly Jesus teachings, are full of activities for us to do to inherit eternal life, salvation, the Kingdom, the presence of the Father, or however you want to describe what exactly it is our goal is.

When a person comes to a predestinationer and asks, "What can I do to inherit eternal life?" does he really respond, "Nothing. Don't bother. If God had you in mind, you'll inherit it."?

Maybe. I don't know. I don't know any of them.

But, I do know that Jesus didn't answer like that.
He described houses we build on foundations of truth, and we do so by following His teachings.
He describes wineskins that must be made new in order to sustain the wine being poured into them.
He described preparing with enough oil in your lamp so you get let in while the door is still open.
He describes the prodigal son choosing to return before the father runs out to him.
He describes servants having enough devotion to stay awake and alert while the master is away.
He describes a fundamental difference in character between those who pick a dying man off the trail and care for him, and those who don't.
He describes the meaningful differences between those who give and love, versus those who just do religious stuff.

I cannot glean from the stories and teachings of Jesus that my choices have nothing to do with what He is doing in me.
Yes, He is the One doing it. He is the One with the plan, the position, and the power to make it happen.
But, like any disciple who expects to learn anything from His teacher, I must choose to respond to His teachings, to choose to do what He is teaching me to do, in order to get what He is trying to give me.

The Bible never says that whether or not I choose to follow Jesus is irrelevant to the results I experience. For me personally, the message is that my choices to follow Jesus are fundamental to the results.
What it does teach is that I can't boast of those results.
It teaches that I am in no position, and have no power, to achieve those results.
It teaches that it is not the specific activities I have chosen to do, so it is of no benefit to teach others to simply mirror my actions, but the result of the One who is positioned and powerful enough to change me at work in my life, that has brought about the desired result.

No, it was not by works that I have been saved.
But, my choice to follow Jesus when He called was part of the process of Him saving me.
Discipleship is not being a passive cup, but an active pupil of the Master, proactively receiving what He is giving me.

At least, that's how I think it works, based on my reading of the Scripture and my personal experience. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

 

[Jake255]

You're trying too hard to prove me wrong. Try to keep focused. Yes, it is Jesus who saved us. Who will receive Christ's salvation is God's choice.
.

I have shown you, using scripture, how the doctrine of predestination does a good job at throwing much of the Bible to the curb in Post #100, which has not been addressed.

 

[histruth]

His disciple3, the verse that you posted proves the point I was making that, EVERYTHING GOD DOES, IS ACCORDING TO HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE. He KNEW ahead of time who would accept Jesus, and for this reason, He ELECTED TO SAVE US. That is why we are called the ELECT. It was not like all the angels voted on who God should save. He simply KNEW who WOULD, and ELECTED TO SAVE US. Also, I have to agree with Jake 255 that it is IN FACT, GOD'S DESIRE TO SAVE ALL, as the MANY verses that have already been posted prove. The main reason certain people believe in predestination, is because they do not want to believe that there is any way they could sin beyond the grace of God. I do not believe that a true Christian could sin beyond God's grace; but you don't need predestination for that. All we need is His promise. For He hath said, " I will never leave you, nor forsake you. " Hebrews 13:5

Love in Christ

 

[histruth]

Also, I would like to say that it is not very Christ like to tell a person that their response is "painful to read". However, it has been my experience that ALMOST EVERYONE who believes in predestination is likes to throw insults around. I am not upset at you, I'm just making a point. Also, Jesus speaks very clearly to those who attempt to shut up the kingdom from others. (But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.) Mathew 23:13 I still love ya though.

 

[Hentenza]

Here is the problem of the rigidity of the OP. The bible teaches BOTH predestination and non libertarian free will. Scripture does not teach libertarian free will. I believe that the answer is both. The tension between them is not resolved in scripture. I believe that God, in His infinity and perfection, is able to both predestine and cooperate with man. We see a perfect example in Christ incarnation. Christ was both predestined AND cooperated with His human nature while being both 100% divine and 100% human. I am still studying this view and maybe one day I will post a paper here about it to get your feedback.

 

[Skala]

I believe:

1) man has a will and makes choices, and is able to choose whatever he wants to choose

2) man is fallen, and a slave to sin, including his will, so if given the choice between God and self, he is not "neutral", nor is he inclined towards God, but rather, inclined away from God and biased towards rebellion and sin.

3) because of #2, no man, if asked to choose God, would ever choose God. In otherwords, man will consistently and predictable act in accordance with his fallen nature. This means that God's powerful converting grace is absolutely 100% mandatory and necessary if anyone at all is to ever turn to Jesus and embrace him. (this leads to #4)

4) because of #3, not a single person would be saved apart from God predestining them to be saved

So, I believe in God's predestinating grace, as its the only thing that is responsible for men ending up in heaven.

ps 5) No where, not a single time, does the Bible say that God's choice of us is made on the basis of him looking into the future to see who will, of their own will, conjure up some self-wrought faith while in the fallen, unregenerate state.

These leave me absolutely no choice but to deny that "free will" salvation exists. man's will is not free, it's in slavery. In the unregenerate state, it is only free to choose from within the realm of evil that it desires. It cannot desire good (in the God-pleasing, spiritual sense), thus it follows that it cannot "choose" good. The will only chooses what it desires.

It's almost as if "free will" salvation completely leaves the necessity of regeneration out of the equation, and the necessity of God's act of converting us.

What, do humans convert themselves? This goes against everything the Bible teaches. And this is where "Free will" salvation leads - humans getting credit for getting themselves saved. God is no where to be credited for the fact that a person puts personal trust in Christ.

Talk about robbing God's glory.

It's no wonder that in certain Arminian or "free will" churches I've been to will actually congratulate people for getting saved. Congratulations?!?! Pat you on the back? For what? You didn't do anything, God did. He drew you. He saved you. But this type of theology naturally results in sinners congratulating each other for "making the right choice" and "getting themselves saved".

If you go to a church where people "congratulate" someone for publicly professing Christ, something is wrong.

 

[Skala]

1 Peter 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
KJV
predstined are the elect here it says the elect was according to His foreknowledge, His ways are not our ways nor His thoughts our thought!

As another poster put, the problem with this "interpretation" is that the versed eosnt' say that God foreknew the faith of people, it says he foreknew the people themselves. No where is faith referenced as the object of God's knowledge. People are the object of God's knowledge, and when God "knows" someone, it doesnt' simply mean that God knows "about" the person, but rather, that he knows them in a personal, lloving, meaningful way. Observe:

Amo 3:2 You only have I known among all the families of the earth

Matthew 7 "Depart from me, I never knew you."

The lord knows those who are His.

Etc.

In none of these verses does God's "knowledge" of people simply means that he knows "about them", and certainly not that he knows "about their actions", btu rather, he knows them, he loves them in a personal way.

When the Bible says God foreknows his elect, this is exactly what it means. He foreknew them, not their actions. (and thus, not faith)

It is 100% pure eisegesis to assert that 1 Pet 1:2 is saying that God foresaw the actions of people. that's not what it says. Eisegesis is reading ideas into the text that the author didn't intend.

 

[histruth]

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Romans 11:33
There are some things that even the apostle Paul could not answer. However, one only need to know Christ to know that He loves ALL, sinner or saved, He loves ALL.

 

[histruth]

First, let me just point out the obvious. This conversation is NOT BRINGING GOD ANY GLORY. It is in fact stirring up emotion. I will say that GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING. HE KNOWS EVERY LITTLE TINY DETAIL ABOUT EVERYONE WHO HAS EVER LIVED. HE IS ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, AND OMNI PRESENT. THERE IS NOTHING HE DOES NOT KNOW. HE KNOWS THE WAYS OF THE WICKED, THE WAYS OF THE RIGHTEOUS, AND ALL THE DETAILS BETWEEN. ONCE AGAIN, GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING. GOD IS NEVER SHOCKED TO DISCOVER SOMETHING, BECAUSE HE ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING.