What do you believe in the Bible?

[Hoshiyya]

God has determined that "eternal damnation" is a fit punishment of not returning to the land of the living... extermination complete.

In the millennium, mortal people who commit crimes worthy of execution will be executed. Those who live close to the valley of Gehinnom will have their bodies disposed of there. Those who commit crimes like theft will have to, as Scripture stipulates, repay what they owe, which varies depending on what they stole.

After the millennium, the physical world will be replaced by a new spiritual world.
In this world there will be no death, therefore the dead will all be alive.
They will in turn be disciplined by God and brought to repentance.

Eternal death is literally impossible, since death itself will cease to exist, as Scripture says.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Fire doesn't have to consume, Exodus 3:2

Note, of course, that this angel (speaking out of the fire on behalf of Hashem) felt no pain and was not being punished. For that matter, neither was the bush being punished for anything, and the fire ultimately stopped anyway.

As for the words of Isaiah, what is the point of burning corpses, other than to dispose of them?

Can corpses feel pain?
Does a corpse scream out in pain when the coroner slices into it?

 

[Hoshiyya]

True... Daniel's three friends are proof of that.

Yes, and we see that this fire didn't last forever, nor bring them any pain.

 

[visionary]

Yes, and we see that this fire didn't last forever, nor bring them any pain.

This fire burned the fire fuelers at the furnace entrance because it was so hot.

 

[Hoshiyya]

This fire burned the fire fuelers at the furnace entrance because it was so hot.

Did the fire last forever?
As for those who died, are they (or their ashes, rather) still being tortured by these flames lit by king Nebuchadnezzar's servants ?

Let's not beat around the bush.
Any attempt to correlate the fire in Daniel 3 to the false and illogical doctrine of eternal hell is truly outré and meaningless.

I was just trying to keep up with the game you guys were playing, but let's return to reality now.

(Incidentally, for this fire to represent hell requires Nebuchadnezzar, the evil king, to represent God. Though you did not intend it, you are showing that the idea of eternal hell is truly something that could only be connected with evil.)

 

[visionary]

Did the fire last forever?
As for those who died, are they still being tortured by these flames lit by king Nebuchadnezzar's servants ?

Let's not beat around the bush.
Any attempt to correlate the fire in Daniel 3 to the false and illogical doctrine of eternal hell is truly outré and meaningless.

I was just trying to keep up with the game you guys were playing, but let's return to reality now.

(Incidentally, for this fire to represent hell requires Nebuchadnezzar, the evil king, to represent God. Though you did not intend it, you are showing that the idea of eternal hell is truly something that could only be connected with evil.)

Isaiah 43:2
When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

I agree any correlation of the fire in Daniel 3 to eternal fire is not correct. I do believe both fires are the same physical characteristics just lit by two different entities for two different reasons. Fire is fire. What God uses it for, and what we use it for, is still the same physical entity. It is real, it burns and consumes what it burns to ashes. God can give us the protect like He did with Daniel's three friends and can also protect us from the fire.

 

[Heber Book List]

Isaiah 43:2
When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

I agree any correlation of the fire in Daniel 3 to eternal fire is not correct. I do believe both fires are the same physical characteristics just lit by two different entities for two different reasons. Fire is fire. What God uses it for, and what we use it for, is still the same physical entity. It is real, it burns and consumes what it burns to ashes. God can give us the protect like He did with Daniel's three friends and can also protect us from the fire.

Except that the fire lit by G_d doesn't consume, as I have already said.

 

[chunkofcoal]

I think there is a level... for those who die quickly, they will be as if they never were.

Obadiah 1:16 Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been.

For others, they will suffer a little while,

Psalms 37:10, 11, "For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look diligently for his place, but it shall be no more."

Isaiah 1:28
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lordshall be consumed.


Just as stubble flash burns, so will a lot of those who do end up in the eternal fires.
Malachi 4:1,3. "For behold the day is coming burning like and oven, and all the proud, yes allude wickedly shall be as stubble. And the day that is coming shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts,that shall leave them neither root nor branch. . . You shall trample the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet."

I believe that Satan will suffer the longest and will be the last to finally burn up, for he is able to walk in the midst of the fire, and yet be untouched, but in the end something starts burning him up from the inside and he is consumed from within and then He will be no more. I believe that something is the insane rage from within as he watches all his kingdoms and all his men wiped out.

Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Jude 7 makes this subject very plain. "As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner, having given themselves over to sexually immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today, yet the Bible says they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. How can this be explained? It means that these cities were completely burned, until there was nothing left.

Maybe God's "time" is different than our "time" and Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning?
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

 

[visionary]

In the millennium, mortal people who commit crimes worthy of execution will be executed. Those who live close to the valley of Gehinnom will have their bodies disposed of there. Those who commit crimes like theft will have to, as Scripture stipulates, repay what they owe, which varies depending on what they stole.

After the millennium, the physical world will be replaced by a new spiritual world.
In this world there will be no death, therefore the dead will all be alive.
They will in turn be disciplined by God and brought to repentance.

Eternal death is literally impossible, since death itself will cease to exist, as Scripture says.

New world, new earth, new life without sin, no need for repentance, or discipling by God since all will know Him and His Will.

Jer 13:31 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

 

[Hoshiyya]

New world, new earth, new life without sin, no need for repentance, or discipling by God since all will know Him and His Will.

Jer 13:31 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Yes, they will know because he will teach. Teaching, discipline, testing, call it what you will. This is a statement about human hierarchies dissipating, not that there is no need to repent/turn to God.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Except that the fire lit by G_d doesn't consume, as I have already said.

The idea that dead bodies (Isaiah 66:24) will burn forever without being consumed is rather macabre and meaningless - and impossible, since after a thousand years there will be no more valley of Gehinnom to throw corpses into anyway.

The entire point of mentioning worms and fire is that these are things that consume, that's what they do. It doesn't even have to be mentioned though, because the verse has already established that these bodies are dead and we were talking about torment of the sentient.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Maybe God's "time" is different than our "time" and Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning?
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

If so, then it would also be not burning. It would be all at the same time, and thus one state would not have more truth-value or reality than another. We could just as well say Sodom hasn't even been built yet.

 

[Heber Book List]

The idea that dead bodies (Isaiah 66:24) will burn forever without being consumed is rather macabre and meaningless - and impossible, since after a thousand years there will be no more valley of Gehinnom to throw corpses into anyway.

The entire point of mentioning worms and fire is that these are things that consume, that's what they do. It doesn't even have to be mentioned though, because the verse has already established that these bodies are dead and we were talking about torment of the sentient.

I think G_d disagrees with you on unquenchable fire (yes it does say they are corpses), but Matthew also is insistent on unquenchable fire, and Yeshua also.

 

[visionary]

I think G_d disagrees with you on unquenchable fire (yes it does say they are corpses), but Matthew also is insistent on unquenchable fire, and Yeshua also.

Maybe that is not all it is consuming. The Sun is an "unquenchable" fire. The fuel for it and other fires that seem to go on without end is not corpses.

 

[Heber Book List]

Maybe that is not all it is consuming. The Sun is an "unquenchable" fire. The fuel for it and other fires that seem to go on without end is not corpses.

I just go with G_d - he knows what he is doing. Stranger things happen in scripture, even if we do not yet understand, but we cannot limit G_d to what we imagine to be impossible in the 21st century.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I think G_d disagrees with you on unquenchable fire (yes it does say they are corpses), but Matthew also is insistent on unquenchable fire, and Yeshua also.

Maybe they do disagree with me, but their writings don't.

 

[Heber Book List]

Maybe they do disagree with me, but their writings don't.

I agree - if your point of view is the opposite of their writings

 

[Hoshiyya]

I agree - if your point of view is the opposite of their writings

I have demonstrated logically why I say what I say. You're the one getting defensive and unable to argue for your beliefs.

I have asked you many questions, and instead of answering you just tell me I'm wrong, "just cuz".

"I can't show you why you're wrong, but trust me" is not a good argument, in fact it is not an argument at all.

 

[chunkofcoal]

If so, then it would also be not burning. It would be all at the same time, and thus one state would not have more truth-value or reality than another. We could just as well say Sodom hasn't even been built yet.

I have lots of books on my bookshelves and the stories written in them doesn't change my time at all.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I have lots of books on my bookshelves and the stories written in them doesn't change my time at all.

Well I certainly agree. Books are like a window to another time/world.