What do you believe in the Bible?

Heber Book List

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"Believing in the Bible" sounds like is crouched in theology where as believing in the "Word of God" lends itself to the understanding that the Holy Spirit is teaching.

Surely the scriptures are the full and final self revelation of G_d. There is nothing more that can be added to it, and nothing has been omitted (that is the Tanach and the Christian Testament).

The Word of God is often taken to be the subjective account of his Word that we feel in our thoughts and reading, over and against the objective Word of G_d as we have it in Scripture. How many times have I heard Christians say: 'But the Holy Spirit said', followed by a made up understanding of Scripture!
 
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visionary

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Surely the scriptures are the full and final self revelation of G_d. There is nothing more that can be added to it, and nothing has been omitted (that is the Tanach and the Christian Testament).

The Word of God is often taken to be the subjective account of his Word that we feel in our thoughts and reading, over and against the objective Word of G_d as we have it in Scripture. How many times have I heard Christians say: 'But the Holy Spirit said', followed by a made up understanding of Scripture!
I agree, both phrases have been abused. When I said it, I was leaning on my own relationship with God and the Word as found in scripture through and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. As such, I stated my preference.
 
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Hoshiyya

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"More than two-thirds (69%) of Americans disagree that the smallest sin deserves eternal damnation—and 58 percent strongly disagree. Ligonier finds this “alarming.”"

Hahahah!
I have to laugh.
"Alarming?"
Someone finds it "alarming" that people don't think stealing a grape is worth eternal torture?

Ligonier would never apply the severe judgment he imputes onto God in his own life. He would never want courts to punish with this level of severity, and I'm sure he would not punish his son with this level of severity, yet God whose love is far greater than human love should be this merciless - hahaha! right, ok.
 
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Heber Book List

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"More than two-thirds (69%) of Americans disagree that the smallest sin deserves eternal damnation—and 58 percent strongly disagree. Ligonier finds this “alarming.”"

Hahahah!
I have to laugh.
"Alarming?"
Someone finds it "alarming" that people don't think stealing a grape is worth eternal torture?

Ligonier would never apply the severe judgment he imputes onto God in his own life. He would never want courts to punish with this level of severity, and I'm sure he would not punish his son with this level of severity, yet God whose love is far greater than human love should be this merciless - hahaha! right, ok.

So, the obvious response to your post is: At which level does eternal damnation sit on the scale of punishment?
 
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Hoshiyya

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So, the obvious response to your post is: At which level does eternal damnation sit on the scale of punishment?

At what point would a father decide to torture his son ceaselessly?

Why would he do this? Is he a sadist?
God punishes to bring repentance, change and betterment. That is what a father does.

Paul even specifies that we will be thankful for his punishment, once it is over.
 
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Heber Book List

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At what point would a father decide to torture his son ceaselessly?

Why would he do this? Is he a sadist?
God punishes to bring repentance, change and betterment. That is what a father does.

Paul even specifies that we will be thankful for his punishment, once it is over.

Isaiah 66:22-24 True or false?
 
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Hoshiyya

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Isaiah 66:22-24 True or false?

This lasts for the length of the millennium. Mortal people will be executed. Those who are executed in Israel will have their bodies thrown into the valley called Gehinnom. The corpses will of course rot, be eaten by worms or burned, and cease to exist.
Since new corpses will be thrown into the valley of Gehinnom frequently, the maggots will naturally have more than enough food. It is not describing "immortal maggots".

Think for a second: if the maggots eat a corpse (which cannot feel pain or anything at all), how would the corpse remain there? Once a body part is eaten, or been burned, it ceases to exist.
 
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Heber Book List

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This lasts for the length of the millennium. Mortal people will be executed. Those who are executed in Israel will have their bodies thrown into the valley called Gehinnom. The corpses will of course rot, be eaten by worms or burned, and cease to exist.
Since new corpses will be thrown into the valley of Gehinnom frequently, the maggots will naturally have more than enough food. It is not describing "immortal maggots".

Think for a second: if the maggots eat a corpse (which cannot feel pain or anything at all), how would the corpse remain there? Once a body part is eaten, or been burned, it ceases to exist.

That didn't really answer the question.

When you consider the sheer volume who are against him, the maggots will have their work cut out, but there's plenty of time to eat their way through the billions!
 
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Hoshiyya

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That didn't really answer the question.

When you consider the sheer volume who are against him, the maggots will have their work cut out, but there's plenty of time to eat their way through the billions!

Actually it answers your question very thoroughly.

I said people executed in Israel will have their corpses thrown into Gehinnom.
People executed in other parts of the world will obviously not be transported to Gehinnom.

Of course, the fact that we are talking about dead bodies (Isaiah 66:24) being consumed by worms already proves this is not a matter of torturing conscious, living beings.
 
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Actually it answers your question very thoroughly.

I said people executed in Israel will have their corpses thrown into Gehinnom.
People executed in other parts of the world will obviously not be transported to Gehinnom.

Of course, the fact that we are talking about dead bodies (Isaiah 66:24) being consumed by worms already proves this is not a matter of torturing conscious, living beings.


The question was: At which level does eternal damnation sit on the scale of punishment?
 
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Hoshiyya

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The question was: At which level does eternal damnation sit on the scale of punishment?

I already answered this question: At no point.

Your "proof text" literally is describing dead bodies (which cannot feel pain or anything at all) being consumed by worms.
 
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visionary

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The question was: At which level does eternal damnation sit on the scale of punishment?
God has determined that "eternal damnation" is a fit punishment of not returning to the land of the living... extermination complete.
 
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Heber Book List

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God has determined that "eternal damnation" is a fit punishment of not returning to the land of the living... extermination complete.

Thank you. We are getting somewhere. So when Yeshua said if you break one law, you break all of them, the punishment should be consistently high?
 
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Willie T

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Thank you. We are getting somewhere. So when Yeshua said if you break one law, you break all of them, the punishment should be consistently high?
We are only told of one punishment for sin — of any kind or magnitude or "level" — and that is simply "death."
 
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slobake

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This survey in America shows evangelicals are out of touch with the truth of scripture (it's probably the same in England, before someone comments on it)


Christian, What Do You Believe? Survey Says Probably a Heresy About Jesus
I believe all of the Bible. I also know that some of it is historical narrative, some is poetry, some books are epistles addressing specific situations, and much more. It is good to study the Bible, who wrote it, who they were addressing, what those people were like, what was the purpose of the book and what is God saying to us today through His book. Knowing those things are a help in understanding what God is saying to us through His word.
With that, there are still things in the Bible I don't understand but I know they are true.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Thank you. We are getting somewhere. So when Yeshua said if you break one law, you break all of them, the punishment should be consistently high?

Theft of an ox is not equal to theft of two oxen.
Theft is punished by repayment, and the amount you repay depends on the amount you stole, and even depends on what kind of animal you stole (if it was an animal).

Eg: ""Whoever steals an ox or a sheep and slaughters it or sells it must pay back five head of cattle for the ox and four sheep for the sheep." (Exodus 22:1)

According to the Bible, theft does not merit the same punishment as assault.
Neither is assault equal to murder.

The Bible cannot contradict itself.
 
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visionary

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We are only told of one punishment for sin — of any kind or magnitude or "level" — and that is simply "death."
I think there is a level... for those who die quickly, they will be as if they never were.

Obadiah 1:16 Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been.

For others, they will suffer a little while,

Psalms 37:10, 11, "For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look diligently for his place, but it shall be no more."

Isaiah 1:28
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lordshall be consumed.


Just as stubble flash burns, so will a lot of those who do end up in the eternal fires.
Malachi 4:1,3. "For behold the day is coming burning like and oven, and all the proud, yes allude wickedly shall be as stubble. And the day that is coming shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts,that shall leave them neither root nor branch. . . You shall trample the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet."

I believe that Satan will suffer the longest and will be the last to finally burn up, for he is able to walk in the midst of the fire, and yet be untouched, but in the end something starts burning him up from the inside and he is consumed from within and then He will be no more. I believe that something is the insane rage from within as he watches all his kingdoms and all his men wiped out.

Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Jude 7 makes this subject very plain. "As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner, having given themselves over to sexually immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today, yet the Bible says they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. How can this be explained? It means that these cities were completely burned, until there was nothing left.
 
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Heber Book List

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I think there is a level... for those who die quickly, they will be as if they never were.

Obadiah 1:16 Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been.

For others, they will suffer a little while,

Psalms 37:10, 11, "For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look diligently for his place, but it shall be no more."

Isaiah 1:28
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lordshall be consumed.


Just as stubble flash burns, so will a lot of those who do end up in the eternal fires.
Malachi 4:1,3. "For behold the day is coming burning like and oven, and all the proud, yes allude wickedly shall be as stubble. And the day that is coming shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts,that shall leave them neither root nor branch. . . You shall trample the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet."

I believe that Satan will suffer the longest and will be the last to finally burn up, for he is able to walk in the midst of the fire, and yet be untouched, but in the end something starts burning him up from the inside and he is consumed from within and then He will be no more. I believe that something is the insane rage from within as he watches all his kingdoms and all his men wiped out.

Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Jude 7 makes this subject very plain. "As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner, having given themselves over to sexually immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today, yet the Bible says they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. How can this be explained? It means that these cities were completely burned, until there was nothing left.

Fire doesn't have to consume, Exodus 3:2
 
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