What do you believe and why?

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

As it stands right now, it could be a variety of things; the universe itself, some supreme power or being, aliens, etc etc..

When more evidence is available, it will be clearer.

And by the way, it is a sign of strength to state "we don't know" vs making something up (with no evidence) to support a personal belief.

Believing in a random diety, yes, would be extremely convenient to just say there is a god. But Christian doctrine calls us to be disciplined, an extreme amount of strength must be shown.

Davian, I have no idea how to respond to you. How do you respond with the mini quotes then your own text? I want to respond, but I want it to be in a clear format.

Freodin, I would respond to you, but everything that you covered has been covered already and in better form.

 

[Davian]

There is no different interpretation of the bible.

"Christian atheism is a theological position in which the belief in the God of Christianity is rejected or absent but the moral teachings of Jesus are followed."

Christian atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The apostle Paul quotes a pantheist poem about Zeus in Acts 17:28, turning it into a panentheist statement about their "unknown God" when he quotes, "'In him we live and move and have our being' as some of your poets have said."

Panentheism is also a feature of some later Christian thought, particularly in mystical Orthodox Christianity, Catholic philosophy, and process theology. In order to avoid confusion with pantheism some panentheists now use the doublet "unitheism.""

Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Freodin]

Freodin, I would respond to you, but everything that you covered has been covered already and in better form.

I don't think so. And, if it indeed was... do it again or show me where it was done.

As you said: "...I would give anything I have here on earth just for you to see it."

Give it a little effort!

 

[Ana the Ist]

The bible

I've come to the point where I realize that people who refute God are victims of their own misunderstanding. You will constantly reach the conclusion that you don't know and you're fine with that. You're finding comfort that you don't know and God doesn't exist. Finding comfort that there are no universal consequences to your actions, it's the same comfort that you think Christians find in knowing there is a life after. I don't believe in God to not go to hell, I believe in God because He is the definition of good and just.

If God didn't exist it would absolutely make life here and now much easier, we wouldn't be accountable for anything we do. We could do anything we wanted, sure we'd have to face consequences that man as made, but on a universal level it doesn't really matter at all. If I were to go to each one of your houses and steal everything you owned and beat you, you would surely say that was wrong. But on a cosmic level, on your own understanding of the universe, it's not wrong. So you would be a hypocrite to impose any sense of right and wrong and you should look at my actions as just that, actions. The very existence of God is proven by your own sense of justice.

I think we have all intelligently come to the conclusion that there may be a God, but who knows, we were not there to witness it. There is also a high probability that if there is a God, there is a strong chance that He would reveal Himself to His creation, thus our sense of right and wrong. God should merit the same amount of research and thinking as any other option, I'm just afraid that many of you brush off that idea too quickly. Is it because of the Christian community? Many Christians are hypocrites, they have indeed made God a character in the sky and use Him like a genie in a bottle.

The reason it all makes perfect sense to me is in the Christian doctrine. It tells us to give up everything we own and spread the word of God. The concept of social security, life insurance, medical insurance, houses, cars, is very contradictory to what being a Christian is all about. We are called to treat life as a mission field and that's it. If life here is a short window compared to what the bible tells us, we cannot hope to receive any sort of eternal salvation if we do not treat this life as temporary and shun any worldy possessions. It saddens me, I feel that if Christians would read their own doctrine and live it, many people would more readily see God's will and characteristics.

The deadliest enemy to the word of God are the billions of Christians world wide who have absolutely no idea what they are reading. They themselves have turned God into a puppet and have made it very difficult for anyone with intelligence, reasoning, and common sense to believe in Him. I think this affects your outlook of Christianity, a rich Christian is hypocritical and will change the viewpoint of those who are seeking the truth.

If you were sick and needed immediate care you would go to the hospital, if you went to a certain hospital and there are hundreds of people who are sick, vomiting, and dying in front of that hospital you would seek another one. The problem is not with the hospital it is with the people who are out front refusing to actually go in and receive treatment.

I had a very real realization this morning and it really bothered me. I think people know that I can get really aggressive with people here on these forums, that is not my intention. My realization was this, many of the people I am talking to are on a very dangerous path, they are quite literally playing with fire. I do not want anyone to believe in God or even consider it out of danger of hell, but it doesn't change the fact that many of the people I talk to are going there. The reasoning behind this is that God is perfectly just, and just as a judge who punishes a criminal, God's very nature demands justice.

You guys are awesome, intelligent, free thinkers who have more of God's attributes in your worldy view then most Christians. I just want you guys to know the truth, and yes, I know, this truth in your view is not truth at all, but it still doesn't change the fact that I would give anything I have here on earth just for you to see it.

Whew! That's a whole lot of issues wrapped up into one post isn't it? First off, let me say don't worry about your self perceived aggression. I honestly didn't think you came off as aggressive at all. I've had lots of discussions with many types of christians in my time here on CF...and quite a few of them stop attempting to explain their position at some point and just use ad hominems instead. You stuck to your explanations... even if we didn't agree on them. Kudos for you.

Secondly, I think that most deconverts from christianity to atheism will tell you that at first...it isn't a comforting feeling at all. It's a bit like losing your imaginary friend, that person who always listened, that floating excuse for anything bad that happens in your life. There's no more telling yourself, "Well, it's all part of god's plan...I may not understand it now, but it's for the best." that sort of emotional cop-out is no longer available. God no longer has a plan for you or anyone else. It's a sense that you're really on your own for the first time in your life.

You also lose that sense of absolution, forgiveness, salvation...the things that comfort christians who make mistakes or do something they consider immoral. All that is gone and now you simply have to own your mistakes, your faults, and they poor choices you make and how they affect others. The idea that atheism is "comforting because there aren't any consequences" is just silly...everything has consequences and they are made apparent on a daily basis. Without a god to hide behind though...you're forced to face them.

Would you also like to learn why your "stealing everything from your home" example makes no sense? I don't need a god to decide that it's bad (from my perspective at least) if someone steals all my property. When you think about it... I doubt you do either.

 

[Davian]

Believing in a random diety, yes, would be extremely convenient to just say there is a god. But Christian doctrine calls us to be disciplined, an extreme amount of strength must be shown.

Davian, I have no idea how to respond to you. How do you respond with the mini quotes then your own text? I want to respond, but I want it to be in a clear format.

The way I do it is to copy and paste the quote tag from the top of the text to the beginning of a section I want to create, then add extra lines and the [/quote] above it. I then grab the text (see image, highlighted in blue) and copy and paste that text into each place in your post that I wish to respond to.

I then go back and enter my responses in the middle of the copy-and-pasted text. PM me if you need further clarification.

Freodin, I would respond to you, but everything that you covered has been covered already and in better form.

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

Whew! That's a whole lot of issues wrapped up into one post isn't it? First off, let me say don't worry about your self perceived aggression. I honestly didn't think you came off as aggressive at all. I've had lots of discussions with many types of christians in my time here on CF...and quite a few of them stop attempting to explain their position at some point and just use ad hominems instead. You stuck to your explanations... even if we didn't agree on them. Kudos for you.

Thank you for the kind words!

Secondly, I think that most deconverts from christianity to atheism will tell you that at first...it isn't a comforting feeling at all. It's a bit like losing your imaginary friend, that person who always listened, that floating excuse for anything bad that happens in your life. There's no more telling yourself, "Well, it's all part of god's plan...I may not understand it now, but it's for the best." that sort of emotional cop-out is no longer available. God no longer has a plan for you or anyone else. It's a sense that you're really on your own for the first time in your life.

You also lose that sense of absolution, forgiveness, salvation...the things that comfort christians who make mistakes or do something they consider immoral. All that is gone and now you simply have to own your mistakes, your faults, and they poor choices you make and how they affect others. The idea that atheism is "comforting because there aren't any consequences" is just silly...everything has consequences and they are made apparent on a daily basis. Without a god to hide behind though...you're forced to face them.

Would you also like to learn why your "stealing everything from your home" example makes no sense? I don't need a god to decide that it's bad (from my perspective at least) if someone steals all my property. When you think about it... I doubt you do either.

Have you ever thought that maybe you really did lose someone? That it isn't just make believe? I've done a study on sin and it indeed shows God separates Himself from sin. Would you mind telling me exactly what it was that made you turn from Christianity?

Also, it was just an example that shows that the consequences and actions we have, have no real standings and mean nothing on a universal scale. You knowing that it's wrong to steal is because you were made in His image.

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

Just like you are.

You are taking concepts known from "our world"... and extrapolate them into something "beyond"... but in doing so, you ignore that these concepts only have meaning because they are part of our world.

In doing that, you involuntarily introduce the assumption that this "beyond" is, on a very basic level, just like the world we know.

But if this world has to have an explanation like yours... this "beyond world" needs to have a similar explanation.

Man, I'll try my best here. So many people I'm only one person.

The beyond world has no wordly explanation, I'm not describing it at all. I'm simply saying that I believe in God and carrying that to explain our actions Here is a really neat observation. I was reading about multi universes and parallel dimensions as explained by Einstein and Dawkings, this concept is widely accepted to be "highly possible". In the bible, every time Heaven is mentioned as pertaining to being revealed, it always says "Heaven opened up", in Revelation it says the sky opened like a scroll, also Jacobs ladder describing Angels ascending and descending into Heaven. This is by no means accepted doctrine but it's very curious how every time Heaven "opens" it sounds an awful lot like an opening to another multiverse. It's quite entertaining how well the bible works with all the cool discoveries our scientists make.

 

[Freodin]

Man, I'll try my best here. So many people I'm only one person.

I know, it can be difficult to be ganged up upon in this way. But that is what you should have expected when you started a thread asking such a general question: people want to talk about their answers.

The beyond world has no wordly explanation, I'm not describing it at all. I'm simply saying that I believe in God and carrying that to explain our actions.

Great! I believe in "God" as well, and use that (if not directly) to explain our actions. Only, this thing "God" that I believe in has nothing to do with this thing "God" that you believe in. It is completely different. I don't even call it "God"!
In what way is it different? Well, to find out, we would have to describe what you and I mean by "God".
And if we go by these descriptions, we find that your God is an extrapolation of "worldy explanations", as you called it.

Here is a really neat observation. I was reading about multi universes and parallel dimensions as explained by Einstein and Dawkings, this concept is widely accepted to be "highly possible". In the bible, every time Heaven is mentioned as pertaining to being revealed, it always says "Heaven opened up", in Revelation it says the sky opened like a scroll, also Jacobs ladder describing Angels ascending and descending into Heaven. This is by no means accepted doctrine but it's very curious how every time Heaven "opens" it sounds an awful lot like an opening to another multiverse. It's quite entertaining how well the bible works with all the cool discoveries our scientists make.

That would really be cool... if it was correct. But here's the problem: all those references of "heaven opening up" and "angels climbing ladders" does sound nothing like "an opening to another multiverse".
It fits very well into your preconceived worldview... but scientifically, there isn't even a notion of "opening to another multiverse".

But let's say you were correct here - then "heaven" would be a parallel universe, just like ours.
What does that do to answer our question? Nothing! We are debating where our universe comes from... now we have to find out where this other universe comes from as well. And the whole meta-structure: the multiverse.


Sorry, I can understand that you want others to share this "truth" that you think you found, but I fear you are just not very good at it.

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

I know, it can be difficult to be ganged up upon in this way. But that is what you should have expected when you started a thread asking such a general question: people want to talk about their answers.


Great! I believe in "God" as well, and use that (if not directly) to explain our actions. Only, this thing "God" that I believe in has nothing to do with this thing "God" that you believe in. It is completely different. I don't even call it "God"!
In what way is it different? Well, to find out, we would have to describe what you and I mean by "God".
And if we go by these descriptions, we find that your God is an extrapolation of "worldy explanations", as you called it.


That would really be cool... if it was correct. But here's the problem: all those references of "heaven opening up" and "angels climbing ladders" does sound nothing like "an opening to another multiverse".
It fits very well into your preconceived worldview... but scientifically, there isn't even a notion of "opening to another multiverse".

But let's say you were correct here - then "heaven" would be a parallel universe, just like ours.
What does that do to answer our question? Nothing! We are debating where our universe comes from... now we have to find out where this other universe comes from as well. And the whole meta-structure: the multiverse.


Sorry, I can understand that you want others to share this "truth" that you think you found, but I fear you are just not very good at it.

The truth? It's a interesting word that's used in connection with how heaven is revealed to us. The problem is, your truth is not mine, we're not even on the same playing field.

I believe in a all powerful God that will eventually destroy this world one day and create a new. My God is fully capable of opening up anything He wanted to. So as my truth may not make sense to you, it is the truth and you and I will never have a healthy discussion on any matter.

The problem is, is that I do study physics and I am very much into the cosmos, I highly doubt you have read the bible and if you have, it was googling verses in attempts to make a Christian look stupid.

P.S. The descriptions in the bible sound "exactly" like it would be if an opening up would occur between a multiverse or parallel dimension. You can't just tell someone it doesn't sound like it when they don't open up every day for us to see. This is called bullying in a debate and it's not accepted on any forum.

 

[Freodin]

The truth? It's a interesting word that's used in connection with how heaven is revealed to us. The problem is, your truth is not mine, we're not even on the same playing field.

I believe in a all powerful God that will eventually destroy this world one day and create a new. My God is fully capable of opening up anything He wanted to. So as my truth may not make sense to you, it is the truth and you and I will never have a healthy discussion on any matter.

If he only were able to give his followers the ability to talk sense to people who don't believe in him... that would be nice for once.

The problem is, is that I do study physics and I am very much into the cosmos, I highly doubt you have read the bible and if you have, it was googling verses in attempts to make a Christian look stupid.

Your doubt is noticed and discarded. I did read the Bible... and I don't need to google verses to make a Christian look stupid.
And, oh look and behold... I did study physics. What a coincidence!

P.S. The descriptions in the bible sound "exactly" like it would be if an opening up would occur between a multiverse or parallel dimension. You can't just tell someone it doesn't sound like it when they don't open up every day for us to see. This is called bullying in a debate and it's not accepted on any forum.

So how many openings of parallel universes have you observed to make such a comparison?

That is not bullying... that is calling out your overblown claims!

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

If he only were able to give his followers the ability to talk sense to people who don't believe in him... that would be nice for once.


Your doubt is noticed and discarded. I did read the Bible... and I don't need to google verses to make a Christian look stupid.
And, oh look and behold... I did study physics. What a coincidence!


So how many openings of parallel universes have you observed to make such a comparison?

That is not bullying... that is calling out your overblown claims!

You read the bible? Right.

I've been having a pleasant discussion with numerous amounts of atheists in this thread. It has all been cordial, although some times tense, enjoyable. What claims have I made? You mean the one that I said was just something I've noticed? It's not be claiming it is anything, it was just interesting and I thought to bring it up.

Wait a minute, you're asking how many parallel universes I've seen? How are you using the exact same argument against YOUR claim against me? I can only imagine what it would look like and it seems to look right by my acts of imagination.

I'm actually not going to respond to anything else you have to say, you are literally addressing things I did not say and distorting it to make yourself seem witty and clever.

Everyone else has challenged my thoughts and forced me to think before I type. You aren't challenging anything, you are just picking fights. I hope your anger subsides when addressing future Christians.

Davian, I'm still going to respond, yours is a bit trickier

 

[Freodin]

You read the bible? Right.

You study physics? Right!

I've been having a pleasant discussion with numerous amounts of atheists in this thread. It has all been cordial, although some times tense, enjoyable. What claims have I made? You mean the one that I said was just something I've noticed? It's not be claiming it is anything, it was just interesting and I thought to bring it up.

Wait a minute, you're asking how many parallel universes I've seen? How are you using the exact same argument against YOUR claim against me? I can only imagine what it would look like and it seems to look right by my acts of imagination.

You made a claim... completely unrelated to the question at hand... about "how well the bible works with all the cool discoveries our scientists make." (Direct quote, not distorting anything you said.)

But this isn't true. You just said it yourself: it "look right by my acts of imagination".

That's it. Not truth, not facts... not science. Your imagination. This isn't a bad thing by itself. A good scientist needs to employ hir imagination... and then go down, do the work and show that he could be at least theoretically right. For starters.

In this case, the verses you hinted at sound "exactly" like a completely different cosmology: one where God sits in a physical place above "earth", divided from earth by a physical border that indeed can get "opened" or "rolled up".

It fits, even better than your "imagination". But we know that it isn't true, so no one will bother to proclaim how wonderful it is how well the Bible works with something that we know is wrong.

I'm actually not going to respond to anything else you have to say, you are literally addressing things I did not say and distorting it to make yourself seem witty and clever.

Take a look at your post #127. There it is, plain for all to see. Just what you said... and what I adressed. Denying this (and misusing the term "literally") does nothing to make you seem a fountain of truth.

Everyone else has challenged my thoughts and forced me to think before I type. You aren't challenging anything, you are just picking fights. I hope your anger subsides when addressing future Christians.

Hm... I challenged your claim. You started to attack my character, my knowledge and my intentions.

I wonder who is the one with anger issues?

 

[Ana the Ist]

We know of nothing that did not have a beginning, so it is reasonable to presume this is true of the entire Universe. In addition, the apparent evidence from science indicates an origin as some point in time (and the theory is, of course, that time originates then as well). It seems to me that when we go back to the very beginning of the universe, we are left with only two options: either something came from nothing, or there is a Creator. I have not been able to persuade myself that the first option is reasonable.

Here's an interesting phrase...

"We know of nothing that did not have a beginning..."

So your god had a beginning

 

[hankroberts]

Here's an interesting phrase...

"We know of nothing that did not have a beginning..."

So your god had a beginning

OK, I'll rephrase: We know nothing within the universe (that is, included in what Christians would call Creation) that did not have a beginning.

On the matter of God, it might be a reasonable (though not necessary) presumption that He had a beginning. However, as a unique being (as far as we know) who exists outside Creation, we not only have no information on any potential beginning but I don't know any way we would obtain such information short of His direct revelation.

 

[bhsmte]

OK, I'll rephrase: We know nothing within the universe (that is, included in what Christians would call Creation) that did not have a beginning.

On the matter of God, it might be a reasonable (though not necessary) presumption that He had a beginning. However, as a unique being (as far as we know) who exists outside Creation, we not only have no information on any potential beginning but I don't know any way we would obtain such information short of His direct revelation.

What reliable and verifiable information do you have at all, in describing whether a God had a beginning or not?

 

[hankroberts]

What reliable and verifiable information do you have at all, in describing whether a God had a beginning or not?

I'm sorry, was I not clear?
On the matter of God, it might be a reasonable (though not necessary) presumption that He had a beginning. However, as a unique being (as far as we know) who exists outside Creation, we not only have no information on any potential beginning but I don't know any way we would obtain such information short of His direct revelation.

 

[bhsmte]

I'm sorry, was I not clear?
On the matter of God, it might be a reasonable (though not necessary) presumption that He had a beginning. However, as a unique being (as far as we know) who exists outside Creation, we not only have no information on any potential beginning but I don't know any way we would obtain such information short of His direct revelation.

Since you believe in a God, what is your position on whether God had a beginning or not?

And, people have "direct revelations" of all shapes and sizes, with no means to confirm any particular revelation to be accurate.

 

[hankroberts]

Since you believe in a God, what is your position on whether God had a beginning or not?

And, people have "direct revelations" of all shapes and sizes, with no means to confirm any particular revelation to be accurate.

Personally, my position is that I have no idea, and that it does not matter to anything I find important. I think God has always existed, but I recognize that view is unsubstantiated. When I stand before Him, if He tells me I was wrong, I probably won't argue.

And it should be noted that Revelation is one of the four ways that every person comes to knowledge [Reason, Revelation, Experience and Intuition], and is in fact the foundation of our system of education. Revelation is merely the provision of information from a trusted source. Nothing more.

 

[bhsmte]

Personally, my position is that I have no idea, and that it does not matter to anything I find important. I think God has always existed, but I recognize that view is unsubstantiated. When I stand before Him, if He tells me I was wrong, I probably won't argue.

And it should be noted that Revelation is one of the four ways that every person comes to knowledge [Reason, Revelation, Experience and Intuition], and is in fact the foundation of our system of education. Revelation is merely the provision of information from a trusted source. Nothing more.

We look at the definition of revelation a bit differently.

In religion and theology, revelation is the revealing or disclosing of some form of truth or knowledge through communication with a deity or other supernatural entity or entities.

 

[hankroberts]

We look at the definition of revelation a bit differently.

In religion and theology, revelation is the revealing or disclosing of some form of truth or knowledge through communication with a deity or other supernatural entity or entities.

And of course, that is included in my understanding of Revelation, since information provided by God would fit the definition used in the theory of knowledge and how we acquire knowledge. So a Divine revelation would also be a trusted source of information. But I prefer not to limit myself to a definition that is less than the scholarly community would use, if it isn't necessary. And for me, it isn't.

And incidentally, my definition came from Seminary Theology class notes.