What do we know about James the Just

[Open Heart]

Listen closely.... Salvation is a free gift offered through our Lord and Savior. Living Torah is for learning to live a righteous life once you have accept the free gift. It is a lifestyle. God's kingdom is not the world's kingdoms. If we are to learn anything about His kingdom, we are to learn from the "tutor".

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

This is two different subjects. Salvation is a faith based acceptance of God's offer. Torah is a lifestyle of His kingdom. If a person comes to faith without the schoolmaster, how are they to know it is from God?

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

The Lord's Torah is not something temporary but for all His people. It is what makes them a peculiar people. Meditating upon His Word prayerfully rewards the believers with a faithful walk in life.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The more we study to live according to His Word the more we reveal His Word in our life to those around us.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If we are ever to rid the unrighteousness out of life, then we are to learn from the law what is unrighteousness and live according to how the Holy Spirit reveals the mercy, charity, and love within His law to us. These are the things that the law reveals through the Holy Spirit in wisdom that is not revealed in the letter of the law but in the spirit of it. In other words, the interpretation of the law by those fresh out of Egypt is perceived different than those who are following Yeshua.

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Hi vis!

I've been following along, getting to know you better. Please don't think I'm trying to back you into a corner or anything. I'm not trying to be tricky here, I'm just trying to undertand you.

1. It sounds like you are definitely a salvation by grace person. You are not saying we obey God in order to be saved.

2. But it also sounds like you are saying it is still absolutely obligatory that everyone keep the Torah (and not just the 10 commandments, but all of it). You have described it as a 'righteous lifestyle.' I don't object or even disagree with your wording. But I'm surprised you would choose a wording that is not in scripture. Is there any word or phrase in scripture that would also fit? I like to use the word sanctification, for example. Does anything come to mind for you?

The issue that is still mucky for me, though I know you've tried both here and on other threads at other times is:

Let's say that someone comes to a church or messianic congregation, hears a few sermons, and is wowed. They are convicted of their sins, and drawn to Messiah. They go talk to the pastor or rabbi and end up repenting and being baptized. They can't wait to tell their friends their new beliefs! But they are not sold on all this law stuff. Especially the kosher food thing, even though the rabbi has done his best. Their friends regularly meet to BBQ ribs, and they have no intention of giving that up. What is the status of this person?

 

[visionary]

Hi vis!

I've been following along, getting to know you better. Please don't think I'm trying to back you into a corner or anything. I'm not trying to be tricky here, I'm just trying to undertand you.

1. It sounds like you are definitely a salvation by grace person. You are not saying we obey God in order to be saved.

2. But it also sounds like you are saying it is still absolutely obligatory that everyone keep the Torah (and not just the 10 commandments, but all of it). You have described it as a 'righteous lifestyle.' I don't object or even disagree with your wording. But I'm surprised you would choose a wording that is not in scripture. Is there any word or phrase in scripture that would also fit? I like to use the word sanctification, for example. Does anything come to mind for you?

The issue that is still mucky for me, though I know you've tried both here and on other threads at other times is:

Let's say that someone comes to a church or messianic congregation, hears a few sermons, and is wowed. They are convicted of their sins, and drawn to Messiah. They go talk to the pastor or rabbi and end up repenting and being baptized. They can't wait to tell their friends their new beliefs! But they are not sold on all this law stuff. Especially the kosher food thing, even though the rabbi has done his best. Their friends regularly meet to BBQ ribs, and they have no intention of giving that up. What is the status of this person?

Is 51:7 Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My Torah…

Is and should Torah be presented as a code of conduct for believers? These commands were not given to Abraham as part of the Covenant God made with him. The Abrahamic Covenant was made because Abraham was already living according to God’s commands. In this verse, the word ‘charge’ (Heb.מִשְׁמֶרֶת mishmereth) tells us that Abraham had an obligation to guard the knowledge of the Way of Righteousness and to pass it on to his descendants and anyone else who would receive it. This makes it before there were Hebrews and common among all believers of every generations. Even this last generation say that they are under the Abrahamic Covenant. Gen 26:5

 

[visionary]

So, you are saying there is no salvation apart from keeping Moses law? Honestly, I thought this faith forum did not teach this doctrine.

Yeshua said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)

 

[Lulav]

What comes to my mind is why wouldn't anyone that says they love G-d, Love Yeshua NOT want to keep them? He is afterall, G-d, should he not be the one to set the standard of living for his people, his creation?

 

[AbbaLove]

Yeshua said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)

In James 2:15-16, James is talking about humanitarian works and refers to those works as "my works" (James 2:18). However, in John 14:10 Yeshua says, "... but the Father who dwells in Me does the works."

In John 14:12-13, Yeshua goes on to differentiate humanitarian works from the supernatural works of G-d in a born again Believer having the indwelling presence of Ruach HaKodesh.

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.​

When James says "my works" in James 2:18 he is referring to humanitarian works and not the greater works that are evident via the indwelling of His Spirit "that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

James goes on to use Abraham as an example of being justified by "his works" based on faith (James 2:21-24). James is not referring to the kind of "works" and "greater works" of John 14:12; whereas, Paul's understanding of "works" is more in accordance with John 14:12-13.

 

[visionary]

​

In James 2:15-16, James is talking about humanitarian works and refers to those works as "my works" (James 2:18). However, in John 14:10 Yeshua says, "... but the Father who dwells in Me does the works."

In John 14:12-13, Yeshua goes on to differentiate humanitarian works from the supernatural works of G-d in a born again Believer having the indwelling presence of Ruach HaKodesh.

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.​

When James says "my works" in James 2:18 he is referring to humanitarian works and not the greater works that are evident via the indwelling of His Spirit "that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

James goes on to use Abraham as an example of being justified by "his works" based on faith (James 2:21-24). James is not referring to the kind of "works" and "greater works" of John 14:12; whereas, Paul's understanding of "works" is more in accordance with John 14:12-13.

His commandments and works are two different things. I like what you presented about humanitarian works, but they are not works.

 

[Open Heart]

Is 51:7 Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My Torah…

Is and should Torah be presented as a code of conduct for believers? These commands were not given to Abraham as part of the Covenant God made with him. The Abrahamic Covenant was made because Abraham was already living according to God’s commands. In this verse, the word ‘charge’ (Heb.מִשְׁמֶרֶת mishmereth) tells us that Abraham had an obligation to guard the knowledge of the Way of Righteousness and to pass it on to his descendants and anyone else who would receive it. This makes it before there were Hebrews and common among all believers of every generations. Even this last generation say that they are under the Abrahamic Covenant. Gen 26:5

Your answer is ambiguous. Could you be a little more clear? You have someone who has repented, been baptized, and turned their life around with God's help, but even with a Messianic Rabbis assistance still will not adopt the law. Can you clearly tell me their status? By status I mean are they saved or not. IOW I'm making it easy for you, so that your answer will start off with a yes or a no, and then you can add more if you wish.

 

[visionary]

Your answer is ambiguous. Could you be a little more clear? You have someone who has repented, been baptized, and turned their life around with God's help, but even with a Messianic Rabbis assistance still will not adopt the law. Can you clearly tell me their status? By status I mean are they saved or not. IOW I'm making it easy for you, so that your answer will start off with a yes or a no, and then you can add more if you wish.

How far away the prodigal child before the Father opens up His arms for His return? Salvation is an offer that is always there. Our returning to His fold is on us.

 

[ralliann]

Your answer is ambiguous. Could you be a little more clear? You have someone who has repented, been baptized, and turned their life around with God's help, but even with a Messianic Rabbis assistance still will not adopt the law. Can you clearly tell me their status? By status I mean are they saved or not. IOW I'm making it easy for you, so that your answer will start off with a yes or a no, and then you can add more if you wish.

I do not think it is ambiguous at all. Especially given what was said about Abraham. I just thought this was against this faith groups teaching.

 

[AbbaLove]

His commandments and works are two different things. I like what you presented about humanitarian works, but they are not works.

In James 2:15-16, James is talking about humanitarian works and refers to those works as "my works" (James 2:18). However, in John 14:10 Yeshua says, "... but the Father who dwells in Me does the Works."

When James says "my works" in James 2:18, isn't he indirectly or directly implying that the two most important Jewish commandments, as well as the Ten Commandments and even all 613 Jewish commandments are humanitarian works based on James' faith ("my works")? Isn't this an example of James' respect for Messianic Judaism's reliance on Judaism's religious works?

What do you mean when you say "but they are not works." ?​

 

[visionary]

​

In James 2:15-16, James is talking about humanitarian works and refers to those works as "my works" (James 2:18). However, in John 14:10 Yeshua says, "... but the Father who dwells in Me does the Works."

When James says "my works" in James 2:18, isn't he indirectly or directly implying that the two most important Jewish commandments, as well as the Ten Commandments and even all 613 Jewish commandments are humanitarian works based on James' faith ("my works")? Isn't this an example of James' respect for Messianic Judaism's reliance on Judaism's religious works?

What do you mean when you say "but they are not works." ?​

Once you put the commandments in the "works" category they are no longer thought of as a delight.
Psalm 1:2
But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psalm 40:8
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psalm 119:70
Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.
Psalm 119:77
Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.
Psalm 119:92
Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
Psalm 119:174
I have longed for thy salvation, O Lord; and thy law is my delight.

Romans 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

 

[AbbaLove]

Once you put the commandments in the "works" category they are no longer thought of as a delight.
Psalm 1:2
But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psalm 40:8
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psalm 119:70
Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.
Psalm 119:77
Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.
Psalm 119:92
Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
Psalm 119:174
I have longed for thy salvation, O Lord; and thy law is my delight.

Romans 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

So, when James says "my works" it sounds like you may be implying that James didn't delight in thy law to the extent of David's delight in thy law (not based of works?). If so, that suggests that David's relationship with the Lord God was somehow superior to James' Faith and possibly that of other Messianic Jews whose Faith is accompanied by 'works'. How does one then make sense of such a perspective when the New Covenant (ushered in by Messiah Yeshua) is a better Covenant? The following verses present what could be considered 'humanitarian works' when James says "my works".

Matthew 22:39-40
The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands.”
James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world.​

His commandments and works are two different things. I like what you presented about humanitarian works, but they are not works.

Believers don't consider 'humanitarian works' to "visit the orphans and widows in their distress" as an example of secular humanism. Perhaps, humanitarian works of Believers has gotten a bad rap being equated with secular humanisn. Only God knows the heart of man when 'humanitarian works' are done with selfless delight to honor the LORD and NOT the prideful nature of man. When James says "my works" i take he too means the satisfaction and delight in thy law.

Humanitarian works shouldn't necessarily be equated with secular humanism when done with humility to bring attention to the Lord God and His Love as opposed to man-kinds prideful nature when taking credit for humanitarian works. That said when James says "my works" it does remind me of man-kinds "Me, Myself and I" mentality. I'm not saying that James meant this, but when man delights in following the law including the 613 commands it can open the door to the possibility of self-righteousness. But as previously said only God knows the true motivation of a Messianic Jew's delight in pursuing selfless righteousness via the law.

Psalm 1:2
But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

 

[Elihoenai]

Utterly reject those teaching lawlessness!


Ecclesiastes 3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 To everything -- a season, and a time to every delight under the heavens:



Romans 2:12 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

12 for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,

 

[Open Heart]

How far away the prodigal child before the Father opens up His arms for His return? Salvation is an offer that is always there. Our returning to His fold is on us.

So let me make sure i understand you. You are saying their conversion was valid and their refusal to obey the does not lose their salvation. Correct?

 

[visionary]

So let me make sure i understand you. You are saying their conversion was valid and their refusal to obey the does not lose their salvation. Correct?

Rebellion at any point does put a block in the road to salvation. Claiming salvation that is offered is a start. Getting home is another matter.

 

[Open Heart]

Rebellion at any point does put a block in the road to salvation. Claiming salvation that is offered is a start. Getting home is another matter.

So now you are confusing me. Give me a yes or a no. If a Christian refuses to keep the Torah, are they still saved? Yes or no?

 

[visionary]

So now you are confusing me. Give me a yes or a no. If a Christian refuses to keep the Torah, are they still saved? Yes or no?

Is anyone who rebels on any point, it will be the obstacle in their path to the ultimate salvation of eternity. Remember the life of eternity with Him is perfect in harmony with His Torah. Not Torah as we have been taught, but in truth and in spirit as Yeshua lived it and taught. So if there is rebellion in the heart of a Christian for the words of life of God revealed to them in Torah, and they refuse to keep what God has convicted them of, it will be there before them it all its glory when He returns and their hearts will fail them.

 

[AbbaLove]

So now you are confusing me. Give me a yes or a no. If a Christian refuses to keep the Torah, are they still saved? Yes or no?

Perhaps, Matthew 25:41-42 is what James meant when he says, "I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18).

James 1:27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
​

FWIW, this one verse may have been first and foremost at the forefront of Mother Theresa's motivation for her Messianic New Covenant interpretation of "to keep the Torah" considering her Christian faith. However, to continue with your question ... "If a Christian refuses to keep the Torah, are they still saved? Yes or no?" is not open to speculation-debate considering the SOP of this MJ Forum.

That said, it would be quite interesting to know how James would have answered your question.

 

[Open Heart]

Is anyone who rebels on any point, it will be the obstacle in their path to the ultimate salvation of eternity. Remember the life of eternity with Him is perfect in harmony with His Torah. Not Torah as we have been taught, but in truth and in spirit as Yeshua lived it and taught. So if there is rebellion in the heart of a Christian for the words of life of God revealed to them in Torah, and they refuse to keep what God has convicted them of, it will be there before them it all its glory when He returns and their hearts will fail them.

Come on, Vis, I've been asking nicely. Your comments are open to wiggle room. A simple yes or no, my friend, a simple yes or no. Are they saved?

 

[visionary]

Come on, Vis, I've been asking nicely. Your comments are open to wiggle room. A simple yes or no, my friend, a simple yes or no. Are they saved?

I am not the judge. Balancing mercy and judging fairly is something I can not do. Moses got away with murder and was still able to come face to face with God. How did that happen? Isaiah when faced with God saw his uncleanness and yet no record of any misdeeds... Go figure.