What do we know about James the Just

[ralliann]

I personally believe that most of us miss what the real debate was about in Acts 15. Its in my opinion about WHO can be saved.

One MUST remember that even during this period of time Jews had almost NO interaction with the Goy to do so, would make them unclean.

It is then, therefore easy to see why the Believing Pharisee's would say that the goy would have to convert (become circumcised and follow Torah.) and THEN they would be saved.

Notice what Paul, Barnabas and Peter's debate with them is centered at... That G-d was moving among the gentiles DISPROVING the argument that the goy had to 1st convert and THEN they could be saved.

I don't think so. Don't we see Gentiles in the synagogues? So I do not think there was almost no interaction. If we read John These went out from the Apostles. It was their leaving the Apostles (to the Jews) that they became manifest....
Ac 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And Jude, James brother says

They crept in unawares and feasted with them

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

 

[visionary]

I personally believe that most of us miss what the real debate was about in Acts 15. Its in my opinion about WHO can be saved.

One MUST remember that even during this period of time Jews had almost NO interaction with the Goy to do so, would make them unclean.

It is then, therefore easy to see why the Believing Pharisee's would say that the goy would have to convert (become circumcised and follow Torah.) and THEN they would be saved.

Notice what Paul, Barnabas and Peter's debate with them is centered at... That G-d was moving among the gentiles DISPROVING the argument that the goy had to 1st convert and THEN they could be saved.

It is easy to understand that mindset. We have it even today, with those who declare unless you belong to AYZ you cannot be saved. Conversion to "said" group has never been the criteria of salvation. The Jews have a valid point that following Torah is a requirement. The conclusion of that famous Jerusalem Counsel is excellent. The current ideology that Torah is not necessary is wrong though.

 

[BukiRob]

It is easy to understand that mindset. We have it even today, with those who declare unless you belong to AYZ you cannot be saved. Conversion to "said" group has never been the criteria of salvation. The Jews have a valid point that following Torah is a requirement. The conclusion of that famous Jerusalem Counsel is excellent. The current ideology that Torah is not necessary is wrong though.

That was kind of my point. People try to distort what the debate in Acts 15 is about. It is ENTIRELY a POSITIONAL argument. WHO CAN BE SAVED? We are told this PLAINLY in vs 1

Yet, many try and twist it into an argument concerning whether the Torah is to be observed. This was NEVER the question. By deed, the apostles were observed until death. The early church was considered a sect of Judaism. The Jews themselves considered it a sect of Judaism. We see Peter and John DAILY going to the temple

 

[BukiRob]

I don't think so. Don't we see Gentiles in the synagogues? So I do not think there was almost no interaction. If we read John These went out from the Apostles. It was their leaving the Apostles (to the Jews) that they became manifest....
Ac 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And Jude, James brother says

They crept in unawares and feasted with them

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Those that have "gone out from us." are the Judaizers who insisted that the Gentile could not be saved. Only the Jew could be saved.

This is just right in front of you if you can only see it... look at the testimony of Peter, Barnabas and Paul. Its ALL related to G-d SAVING the Goy.

 

[ralliann]

Those that have "gone out from us." are the Judaizers who insisted that the Gentile could not be saved. Only the Jew could be saved.

This is just right in front of you if you can only see it... look at the testimony of Peter, Barnabas and Paul. Its ALL related to G-d SAVING the Goy.

So, are you (vis and yourself) Saying outright you cannot be saved without keeping Jewish law? It is my understanding this faith group does not support that idea.

 

[visionary]

So, are you (vis and yourself) Saying outright you cannot be saved without keeping Jewish law? It is my understanding this faith group does not support that idea.

Living Torah is the evidence of salvation...Not the offer and acceptance of salvation. Salvation is manifested in the life of the believer. Even in Revelation in the last days, the saints are described as those who have the faith of Yeshua and keep the commandments.

 

[ralliann]

Living Torah is the evidence of salvation...Not the offer and acceptance of salvation. Salvation is manifested in the life of the believer. Even in Revelation in the last days, the saints are described as those who have the faith of Yeshua and keep the commandments.

So, you are saying there is no salvation apart from keeping Moses law? Honestly, I thought this faith forum did not teach this doctrine.

 

[BukiRob]

So, are you (vis and yourself) Saying outright you cannot be saved without keeping Jewish law? It is my understanding this faith group does not support that idea.

NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am SOOOOOOOO tired of "Christians" vainly conflating OBEDIENCE with Salvation!

Abraham was saved the same way any believer today is saved BY FAITH AKA BELIEVING G-D We are told this plainly too in Genesis and by Paul in Romans. 6And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Modern Christianity has done away with holiness which ONLY comes by OBEDIENCE and instead they have replaced it with some new age garbage by proclaiming that holiness is imputed by the work of the cross. They also INCORRECTLY claim that the Torah was nailed to the tree (well, in fact, it was but NOT in the way that they mean it was) and as such is "DONE AWAY WITH" This in spite of the fact that Messiah OPENLY STATED TO NOT THINK THIS.

The EXPLOSIVE growth of Messianic Judaism is to me the clearest of all signs that the age of the gentile is coming to a close. Adonai is causing a great shaking and he is in the process of telling his children "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE."

The problem YOU have sir is you have to get your head around who G-d is speaking to? The Jews who are almost completely secular OR (and it's the correct answer) the BELIEVER who is in a religious system that has a form of godliness...

That which G-d calls HOLY is HOLY and any believer that would reject it is engaging in sheer FOLLY. BTW Paul calls Torah HOLY If then, you are fighting against something that is HOLY you need to be asking yourself WHY. If G-d has declared the Feast days HIS FEASTS (Sukkot, Pesach, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashana etc) then the natural question is why does the gentile church reject/ignore observing them?

To me, the latter (feast days) are the biggest error of the body. Believers need to set aside what their local church teaches and ask some basic questions. Does my pastor/teacher/preacher advocate the TRADITIONS or are we going to abide by what scripture is plainly telling us to do?

 

[BukiRob]

So, you are saying there is no salvation apart from keeping Moses law? Honestly, I thought this faith forum did not teach this doctrine.

The prodigal son parable. One son was OBEDIENT doing all his father asked (AKA walking in the LIGHT of Torah)

The other son asked for his inheritance (salvation) and spent it on reckless living (doing things MY way instead of G-ds way.)

G-d says that this son who was NOT living in his father's kingdom was DEAD and when he returned he was now ALIVE.

James tells us that faith (SALVATION) without works (obeying TORAH) is DEAD.

 

[ralliann]

oops

 

[ralliann]

Abe walked by faith 430 years before Moses law was given. Moses law also retained law which was prior as well.
The conversation that we have been having is what I am going by. Abes works were works which were for only him alone to perform. Such as offering his son as a sacrifice. We are to walk by faith. The pre Mosaic walk was one of being strangers and sojourners in this world and in this life.
Again, my questions concern what you have said to me here. The above says nothing concerning that.

Gentiles being in the kingdom of Messiah never comes to a close though. We are as much Children of promise as Hebrews in Messiah yes?

I am a female btw.

Still looks like a requirement for faith which saves to me. Since you are getting into issues of what the "Church" teaches and believes, I will only say this concerning myself on the issue of feasts, "Judaism" etc. To give you a hint perhaps of how we might have differing focus.
The feasts, especially the spring feasts are Memorials to the fulfillment (faithfulness) of God to the promises made in covenant with Abraham. Isaac and Jacob, 430 years prior to Moses. In keeping with this...
The covenant, the oath the statute of the everlasting covenant which was made 430 years before Moses law...
1Ch 16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
1Ch 16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
1Ch 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant

De 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
De 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

Some feasts were earthly worldly patterns and shadows.
Which concern Messiah as his work as high priest.
So, In keeping the Lord's supper ( communion) as a Passover we are indeed keeping the law and commandment to remember the covenant of promise fulfilled in Messiah, unto to Abraham Our father. But There is the priestly element of those of his household, partaking of the alter. I think maybe it is the priesthood being diminished in rabbinic Judaism that causes us to see this a little differently. But the difference is not, one of being lawless or lacking lawful works of obedience through faith.

 

[danny ski]

But. And it's a big one. Was Abraham saved? The concept of salvation is strangely absent in the Torah for something so important in the Christian doctrine.

 

[visionary]

So, you are saying there is no salvation apart from keeping Moses law? Honestly, I thought this faith forum did not teach this doctrine.

Keeping the Law of God is an education in righteous living. Should try it, prayerfully asking God to show you how, and then watch God step into your life in a more abundant manner. It is life style transforming.

 

[ralliann]

But. And it's a big one. Was Abraham saved? The concept of salvation is strangely absent in the Torah for something so important in the Christian doctrine.

Salvation from wrath is not absent however. Both Messiah and John the Baptist preached an escape from Gods wrath which was coming, and the destruction of the temple. Ultimate salvation is from death itself in the resurrection

 

[danny ski]

Salvation from wrath is not absent however. Both Messiah and John the Baptist preached an escape from Gods wrath which was coming, and the destruction of the temple. Ultimate salvation is from death itself in the resurrection

Don't want to derail the thread, suffice to say that salvation from physical threat is NOT the Christian "salvation". Any discussion of "salvation", as understood in Christianity, but in the context of the Tanakh tends to be nothing but a misunderstanding.

 

[BukiRob]

Abe walked by faith 430 years before Moses law was given. Moses law also retained law which was prior as well.
The conversation that we have been having is what I am going by. Abes works were works which were for only him alone to perform. Such as offering his son as a sacrifice. We are to walk by faith. The pre Mosaic walk was one of being strangers and sojourners in this world and in this life.
Again, my questions concern what you have said to me here. The above says nothing concerning that.

Gentiles being in the kingdom of Messiah never comes to a close though. We are as much Children of promise as Hebrews in Messiah yes?

I am a female btw.

Still looks like a requirement for faith which saves to me. Since you are getting into issues of what the "Church" teaches and believes, I will only say this concerning myself on the issue of feasts, "Judaism" etc. To give you a hint perhaps of how we might have differing focus.
The feasts, especially the spring feasts are Memorials to the fulfillment (faithfulness) of God to the promises made in covenant with Abraham. Isaac and Jacob, 430 years prior to Moses. In keeping with this...
The covenant, the oath the statute of the everlasting covenant which was made 430 years before Moses law...
1Ch 16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
1Ch 16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
1Ch 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant

De 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
De 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

Some feasts were earthly worldly patterns and shadows.
Which concern Messiah as his work as high priest.
So, In keeping the Lord's supper ( communion) as a Passover we are indeed keeping the law and commandment to remember the covenant of promise fulfilled in Messiah, unto to Abraham Our father. But There is the priestly element of those of his household, partaking of the alter. I think maybe it is the priesthood being diminished in rabbinic Judaism that causes us to see this a little differently. But the difference is not, one of being lawless or lacking lawful works of obedience through faith.

They are NOT, NOT, NOT feasts of Judaism. Scripture makes it clear they are the FEAST DAYS OF YVHV.

There is not even the slightest of hints that the feast days are done away with in fact scripture in the NT makes that clear.

The apostles up to their deaths observed the feast days. It is only the "church" that has done away with them via traditions "of the fathers"

 

[ralliann]

They are NOT, NOT, NOT feasts of Judaism. Scripture makes it clear they are the FEAST DAYS OF YVHV.

There is not even the slightest of hints that the feast days are done away with in fact scripture in the NT makes that clear.

The apostles up to their deaths observed the feast days. It is only the "church" that has done away with them via traditions "of the fathers"

Where have I denied the feasts? We in Christ have tradition given us from the Apostles.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
I acknowledged the Church keeps certain feasts in Christ. Communion is a Passover assembly. These feasts go to the memorial of the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to Abraham, 430 years before Moses. Which memorial is commanded in Mosaic law...So,,,,,I do not understand the contention of your post. I am finfished responding here. It is becoming far too contentious for me. I believe I get the gist of what some of you teach here. Thanks to all, for your responses to my posts .

 

[visionary]

Where have I denied the feasts? We in Christ have tradition given us from the Apostles.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
I acknowledged the Church keeps certain feasts in Christ. Communion is a Passover assembly. These feasts go to the memorial of the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to Abraham, 430 years before Moses. Which memorial is commanded in Mosaic law...So,,,,,I do not understand the contention of your post. I am finfished responding here. It is becoming far too contentious for me. I believe I get the gist of what some of you teach here. Thanks to all, for your responses to my posts .

When that verse was given there were no communion of any other catholic
traditions" as catholics did not exist then.

 

[Elihoenai]

This is the work of Christ/Messiah!

Malachi 4:4 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

4 Remember ye the law of Moses My servant, That I did command him in Horeb, For all Israel -- statutes and judgments.


Matthew 17:3-4 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 and lo, appear to them did Moses and Elijah, talking together with him.

4 And Peter answering said to Jesus, `Sir, it is good to us to be here; if thou wilt, we may make here three booths -- for thee one, and for Moses one, and one for Elijah.'

 

[visionary]

So, you are saying there is no salvation apart from keeping Moses law? Honestly, I thought this faith forum did not teach this doctrine.

Listen closely.... Salvation is a free gift offered through our Lord and Savior. Living Torah is for learning to live a righteous life once you have accept the free gift. It is a lifestyle. God's kingdom is not the world's kingdoms. If we are to learn anything about His kingdom, we are to learn from the "tutor".

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

This is two different subjects. Salvation is a faith based acceptance of God's offer. Torah is a lifestyle of His kingdom. If a person comes to faith without the schoolmaster, how are they to know it is from God?

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

The Lord's Torah is not something temporary but for all His people. It is what makes them a peculiar people. Meditating upon His Word prayerfully rewards the believers with a faithful walk in life.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The more we study to live according to His Word the more we reveal His Word in our life to those around us.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If we are ever to rid the unrighteousness out of life, then we are to learn from the law what is unrighteousness and live according to how the Holy Spirit reveals the mercy, charity, and love within His law to us. These are the things that the law reveals through the Holy Spirit in wisdom that is not revealed in the letter of the law but in the spirit of it. In other words, the interpretation of the law by those fresh out of Egypt is perceived different than those who are following Yeshua.

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,