What do the terrorists want?

[Vylo]

Before he blew up two embassies, I didn't recall him making any demands. Before he blew up the Cole, I don't recall him making any demands. Before 9/11, I don't recall him making any demands.

"After Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, bin Laden offered to help defend Saudi Arabia (with 12,000 armed men) but was rebuffed by the Saudi government. Bin Laden publicly denounced his government's dependence on the U.S. military and demanded an end to the presence of foreign military bases in the country."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_laden#_note-18

Source: Bin Laden uses Iraq to plot new attacks, Asia Times Online, By Syed Saleem Shahzad, February 23, 2002

 

[TheReasoner]

Have you ever studied Islam, and if so, what sources?

Some, on my own initiative.
But I dare you to prove that I am wrong in my study of it.
Whenever I raise any form of questionmark by the Islamic religion I tend to be bashed. But so far not one person has actually come with scriptural references which contradict me. Just hot air. Normally from people who claim I have not studied the Quran and thus have no clue. Of course I do consider such statements pretty foolish. Especially considering that IF I am so immensely wrong proving me wrong (and not just flaming me for lacks of Islam oriented education) should be a very easy task. Right?
Now, bring me sound scriptural evidence of Islam's supposed peaceful nature. It cannot be found. The bloody (literally) religion has been waging war on almost everyone for over a thousand years. Only the last 300 have we had anything remotely close to peace. And this seems to be only because of the Islamic mistakes such as internal conflict and external agressors.

Do you deny these verses?
Do you deny the violent start of the religion?
Is the last of Mohammed's writings writings that encourage peace, or war? How can Sura 9 be interpreted in any way but as an open declaration of war on all other beliefs?

You have earlier stated that Mohammed was not a violent man. What about the murder of Ka'b and other poets who criticized Mohammed with their poetry. You said earlier that the tribe Mohammed slaughtered opposed him and tried to assasinate him. I ask again; Is an assasination attempt a good enough reason to validate the execution of over 800 men and boys? Is it enough to validate taking these people's wives as war bounty?
I do not wish to demean or assault Muslims or Arabs (who are largely Muslim) at all. But; I do wish to ask an unpopular question; Is Islam really a religion of peace, and if so where on earth is the evidence for this? For I do not see it neither in history nor in scripture.

 

[Billnew]

Retake Iraq and Afghanistan from who? From the current goverment.



So you think there are American settlements in the Middle East?
No, there are Israeli settlements in the Middle East,
they want to destroy Israeli and American settlements throughout the world. Personally, you can have the middle East, Nothing I want there we can't get elsewhere if we stand up to the enviromentalists.



can you back this up with evidence? Kill the American Imperialists, in the middle East and across the world.
KIll all infedels. That doesn't limit their goals now does it?



This is historically inaccurate. There have been several periods of peace in the Middle East. It was in such periods that dramatic advances in mathematics, philosophy, medicine, etc, occurred.
I mean, in the past
100 years? Since the invention of the automoble?
And in those times of Peace, was it true peace, or just another tyrant with an iron grasp and many enslaved groups? I admit I have a limited amount of history in the middle east.




Evidence?

They continuously chant, death to ISrael and death to all infedels. All infedels are those that don't believe in the teachings of Islam, so either we convert or their goal is to kill us.
Their goal is a world controlled by Muslims.
Let me clarify this last statement, They want a world controlled by Muslim extremists. Using a religion to incite the followers to do their bidding. Sending followers off to die, while reaping the power for themselves.
I think you might be reading into the posts that we are talking of Islamic people, we are talking of terrorists. They want the world to bow to their power. If they do not the terrorists will kill innocent people until we listen. And when we listen they will be able to kill all they don't think worthy of life. So there is no surrender to terrorists.
Terrorist does not equal Muslims.

 

[TheReasoner]

They continuously chant, death to ISrael and death to all infedels. All infedels are those that don't believe in the teachings of Islam, so either we convert or their goal is to kill us.
Their goal is a world controlled by Muslims.
Let me clarify this last statement, They want a world controlled by Muslim extremists. Using a religion to incite the followers to do their bidding. Sending followers off to die, while reaping the power for themselves.
I think you might be reading into the posts that we are talking of Islamic people, we are talking of terrorists. They want the world to bow to their power. If they do not the terrorists will kill innocent people until we listen. And when we listen they will be able to kill all they don't think worthy of life. So there is no surrender to terrorists.
Terrorist does not equal Muslims.

Absolutely!
However, I do fear that the nature of Islam makes it all the easier to recruit terrorists. It makes it all the easier to find justification in the verses I quoted - and many similar ones. Not to mention the history of Islam.

These terrorists do call themselves Islamists, they constantly quote the quran and draw out the violent parts of the religion. Playing on these, and do so successfully. In fact very successfully.
Why? Well, there are many reasons why.
While neither muslim equals terrorist, nor terrorist equals Muslim, there are certainly elements in Islam which can - and in my belief should - be debated. No religion or ideal should be given immunity to suspicion or criticism simply because once that happens we are no longer talking about a belief or a religion - but a sect. A belief which one cannot question is not a belief. It is a system of oppression and manipulation. A sect.

 

[PacificPandeist]

Look at China and Japan.... look at Argentina and Brazil.... internal policies aside, these are large and populous countries and worldwide economic players where you never hear about anyone wanting to blow up their cities or commit other terror attacks on their people. The worst thing I can think of coming out of any of them was the sarin gas attack on the Japanese trains about a decade ago, and that was a crazy domestic cult rather than any outside group.... So, what are these countries doing right in that regard, that no one wants to mess with them?

//// Pacific PanDeist

 

[susanann]

Has anyone actually stopped to think about why terrorists are committing these horrible acts?

There has to be a reason right? Can't we address their problems using non-violent means?

So why are they doing it?

Revenge.

Revenge for past US military actions in the middle east.

As long as we keep dropping bombs and continue killing arabs, there will be more and more terrorists wanting to get back at us.

It is just plain ole human nature.

If, instead, Iraq had bombed America to the same extent that we bombed Iraq for the past 16 years, then lots of Americans would have lost sons, daughters, mothers, uncles, aunts, grandparents, etc and vowed revenge on them.

We can "address it", i.e, stop it, by stop killing arabs, and then try to make peace and amends and retribution for our past meddling in their affairs.

 

[CCGirl]

Look at China and Japan.... look at Argentina and Brazil.... internal policies aside, these are large and populous countries and worldwide economic players where you never hear about anyone wanting to blow up their cities or commit other terror attacks on their people. The worst thing I can think of coming out of any of them was the sarin gas attack on the Japanese trains about a decade ago, and that was a crazy domestic cult rather than any outside group.... So, what are these countries doing right in that regard, that no one wants to mess with them?

//// Pacific PanDeist

They dont meddle in most other country's affairs. They do not assasinate democratically elected leaders. They don't then put in place and fund dictators. That is just a start.

This is historically inaccurate. There have been several periods of peace in the Middle East. It was in such periods that dramatic advances in mathematics, philosophy, medicine, etc, occurred.
I mean, in the past
100 years? Since the invention of the automoble?
And in those times of Peace, was it true peace, or just another tyrant with an iron grasp and many enslaved groups? I admit I have a limited amount of history in the middle east.

There is your answer.....oil.

 

[mwb]

We can "address it", i.e, stop it, by stop killing arabs, and then try to make peace and amends and retribution for our past meddling in their affairs.

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment. I've considered just letting terrorists attack us whenever they feel like it & not retailiate. We could hope they get bored with not getting a reaction from us.

But I'm not sure why we have to defer to terrorists as if we need their forgiveness. Why is it their business if the U.S. is allies with Israel?

 

[TheReasoner]

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment. I've considered just letting terrorists attack us whenever they feel like it & not retailiate. We could hope they get bored with not getting a reaction from us.

But I'm not sure why we have to defer to terrorists as if we need their forgiveness. Why is it their business if the U.S. is allies with Israel?

Without wanting to excuse their actions;
Is it not true that we have meddled in their - and indeed most of the third world's business - even when we should not. Especially when we shouldn't have.

 

[Billnew]

There is your answer.....oil.

They had peace before, they could sell oil?

I can see the greed from the oil making it a whole lot worse, but I just don't see the turmoil of their culture being just from oil money.

As I say in my signature. It's blind faith that makes a religion go bad. The inability to question human actions
in relation to God's words makes the religion more of a human following then a God following. Humans, no matter who, can be swayed by greed, lust for power, and hate. When a religious person can not be questioned, then that person can do anything in the name of God.
Some people that call themselves Christians have done this. The crusades is an example. Small cults or sects
are other examples.

The writings in the Quran are violent, but I only hear the words of violence from those opposed to, or in defence of terrorism. I do have a Quran, but have never opened it, I didn't buy it, I emailed a place and got it free.
Why try to find the words of peace when all that is preached by the outspoken people of Islam is hate and
violence?

 

[yenguccia]

they want to control the world...power over nations..they want to be gods...i think
they want us to know they are doing it to oppose the world's leader but at the expense of innocent people...
they want war..they want to let us know they are right
and that they are capable to do anything in the name of religion or beliefs. sad to say..
but life is beautiful when you have peace, when you are safe and when you have God in your heart.

 

[Grizzly]

Has anyone actually stopped to think about why terrorists are committing these horrible acts?

There has to be a reason right? Can't we address their problems using non-violent means?

People say not to negotiate with terrorists, but in this case, they aren't doing it for money right? They aren't doing it to get us to release prisoners.

So why are they doing it?

President Bush explained this already. They hate freedom. That's why they are simply thrilled with our self-inflicted assaults upon the Bill of Rights.

 

[nvxplorer]

they want us to know they are doing it to oppose the world's leader

Who is the "world's leader?"

 

[nvxplorer]

Absolutely!
However, I do fear that the nature of Islam makes it all the easier to recruit terrorists.

The nature of feeling injustice is what drives people to violent acts. Whether such feelings are rightly or wrongly deserved, it is this feeling of being wronged, together with a generally hopeless situation, that pushes people over the edge.

Whether we're discussing race riots in the US or suicide bombings in Israel, the contributing factors are the same.

 

[royboy]

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment. I've considered just letting terrorists attack us whenever they feel like it & not retailiate. We could hope they get bored with not getting a reaction from us.

But I'm not sure why we have to defer to terrorists as if we need their forgiveness. Why is it their business if the U.S. is allies with Israel?

It's not about deferring to the terrorists and letting them attack us at will. The thing is, if we actually addressed the source of the problem, there would be no need for retaliation because they wouldn't have attacked us in the first place.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

It's not about deferring to the terrorists and letting them attack us at will. The thing is, if we actually addressed the source of the problem, there would be no need for retaliation because they wouldn't have attacked us in the first place.

The problem with this view is that it assumes all the terrorists are benign until “provoked” by some bad action from the west.

Trouble is you run into situations like the Bali bombings. These were a direct response to Australia going in to assist people being massacred by Islamic gangs in East Timor.

I’m sure the bombers felt justified somehow, but does that mean we shouldn’t help people in need because we might provoke terrorism?

 

[royboy]

The problem with this view is that it assumes all the terrorists are benign until “provoked” by some bad action from the west.

Trouble is you run into situations like the Bali bombings. These were a direct response to Australia going in to assist people being massacred by Islamic gangs in East Timor.

I’m sure the bombers felt justified somehow, but does that mean we shouldn’t help people in need because we might provoke terrorism?

Tthe Bali bombings and the attacks on Australians in East Timor are terrible but were those acts in response to Australia's involvement in Afghanistan or in Iraq?

Because most people believe that Afghanistan was justified but Iraq wasn't. So we didn't need to be in Iraq.

I'm angry that Howard made us a target by agreeing to support the US. But I suppose we need the US's nuclear umbrella.

Didn't New Zealand say no? How did they manage to deal with the consequences of not going to Iraq? Could Australia have done the same?

 

[Silent Bob]

Let me point out that although kill all infidels is often chanted in the Middle East this extreme view would have failed if it was not "justified" by US's foreign policy.

Nobody was chanting kill all infidels before the Jews started migrating in Palestine and nobody would care about the infidels if the US had not taken upon itself to divide these people's countries for oil interests and nothing more.

The situation changed after the Israel wars and it got worse after Saudi Arabia started sleeping with the US to worsen after the Iran fiasco to become unraveled completely with your latest policies in Iraq and other countries. As the US continues to stick its nose into the affairs of Muslim dominated countries it will get much worse. The Muslims of the world see what a bunch of Christian white guys are doing to their fellow Muslims and they get enraged. Your president got it right in one of his speeches after 9/11 it is a “crusade”. By no means am I saying that Christians want to destroy Muslims but it sure as hell looks like that and when you are fanning the flames of hatred all you need is for something to “seem like it”.

It used to be that poor, uneducated, Palestinian orphans went into busses and blew them up. But now you have, educated, UK citizens, who have it nowhere near as bad as the richest Arab in Palestine doing the same thing in London... It is obvious there is a problem.

Religion is not the problem, I have Muslim friends and trust me they can be as capable of being moderate as any other person in the world. Religion is just used, hatred is born through US's and the world's actions and inactions. Promises of virgins and quotes about killing infidels are just the marketing strategy. It has been done before: crusades, inquisitions, Jewish holocausts (not only the recent one), KKK, Christian Identity, NLFT the list goes on and on and these were all done by supposed followers of Christ.

The people of the world stand between disliking the US and outright hating it (it is governments NOT the people who pretend to like you). The world cannot be all insane or jealous of your "trailer trash" prosperity if you want to find the reason why nobody likes you: Pick up a history book and start reading (anything with an "American interventions" chapter will do).

 

[royboy]

Let me point out that although kill all infidels is often chanted in the Middle East this extreme view would have failed if it was not "justified" by US's foreign policy.

Nobody was chanting kill all infidels before the Jews started migrating in Palestine and nobody would care about the infidels if the US had not taken upon itself to divide these people's countries for oil interests and nothing more.

The situation changed after the Israel wars and it got worse after Saudi Arabia started sleeping with the US to worsen after the Iran fiasco to become unraveled completely with your latest policies in Iraq and other countries. As the US continues to stick its nose into the affairs of Muslim dominated countries it will get much worse. The Muslims of the world see what a bunch of Christian white guys are doing to their fellow Muslims and they get enraged. Your president got it right in one of his speeches after 9/11 it is a “crusade”. By no means am I saying that Christians want to destroy Muslims but it sure as hell looks like that and when you are fanning the flames of hatred all you need is for something to “seem like it”.

It used to be that poor, uneducated, Palestinian orphans went into busses and blew them up. But now you have, educated, UK citizens, who have it nowhere near as bad as the richest Arab in Palestine doing the same thing in London... It is obvious there is a problem.

Religion is not the problem, I have Muslim friends and trust me they can be as capable of being moderate as any other person in the world. Religion is just used, hatred is born through US's and the world's actions and inactions. Promises of virgins and quotes about killing infidels are just the marketing strategy. It has been done before: crusades, inquisitions, Jewish holocausts (not only the recent one), KKK, Christian Identity, NLFT the list goes on and on and these were all done by supposed followers of Christ.

The people of the world stand between disliking the US and outright hating it (it is governments NOT the people who pretend to like you). The world cannot be all insane or jealous of your "trailer trash" prosperity if you want to find the reason why nobody likes you: Pick up a history book and start reading (anything with an "American interventions" chapter will do).

Nobody was chanting kill all infidels before the Jews started migrating in Palestine and nobody would care about the infidels if the US had not taken upon itself to divide these people's countries for oil interests and nothing more.

Thankyou. I guess that answers the question of whether the are killing us because we aren't muslim.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Tthe Bali bombings and the attacks on Australians in East Timor are terrible but were those acts in response to Australia's involvement in Afghanistan or in Iraq?

Australians were deliberately targeted in last year's Bali bombings, according to transcripts of police interviews with suspects, which have been aired on Australian television.
The programme said it had a transcript of suspect Imam Samudra telling police that Australia was punished for its close relationship with the US, and for its involvement in East Timor's transition to independence from Indonesia in 1999.

Original here

And let's not forget that Australia's actions in Timor were supported by the UN.....