What Do Progressives Have In Common Theologically With Traditionals?

[Dizahab]

Quote the whole chapter in Isaiah, even fact in the previous ones not just one text, in that case don't go to church/eat food/ wear nice clothes/have a decent church programme just in case its pleasurable for you......

As you carefully reread this text, think of your narrow response to me.

 

[Bourbaki]

What do Progressives and Traditionals have in common theologically?

Isn't that like asking what do Sadducees and Pharisees have in common?

 

[thecountrydoc]

First point: Your words Night;

"Even if you could get us all to agree on the Sabbath doctrine, there are still so many varying ideas amongst us Progs in regards to it's nature, how binding it is, how it is to be observed, New/Old covenant issues, Moral/Ceremonial issues, Christ the True Sabbath Rest, seal of God/mark of the beast, etc.

From these words alone you admit that there is a division of belief in what amounts to the most basic doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church. You have also grouped yourself with the desenters. A first year law student would love to have such a statement if they were ask to prove that you do not subscribe to the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Second point: I have not said, or infered, that you have not, nor do not, keep the Sabbath. As for how you might choose to "keep" the Sabbath that would be entirely your decision. ( I hope that all who have posted to, or read, this thread will take note.)

Now with the above being said I should say another thing. I have had up close and peonal experience with church disfellowshiping procedures from the local church leval to the "hallowd" conference rooms of the GC. I should also say that all decisions are not necessarily correct, no matter which way the decission is made.

If just a small amount of the energy and time expended here were to be used in wittnessing I belive that a great amount of good would be accompished for the kingdom of heaven. What will be everyone's choice as to how they will spend their time and energy in the future?

Respectfully, you brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[tall73]

First point: Your words Night; From these words alone you admit that there is a division of belief in what amounts to the most basic doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church. You have also grouped yourself with the desenters. A first year law student would love to have such a statement if they were ask to prove that you do not subscribe to the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Second point: I have not said, or infered, that you have not, nor do not, keep the Sabbath. As for how you might choose to "keep" the Sabbath that would be entirely your decision. ( I hope that all who have posted to, or read, this thread will take note.)

Now with the above being said I should say another thing. I have had up close and peonal experience with church disfellowshiping procedures from the local church leval to the "hallowd" conference rooms of the GC. I should also say that all decisions are not necessarily correct, no matter which way the decission is made.

If just a small amount of the energy and time expended here were to be used in wittnessing I belive that a great amount of good would be accompished for the kingdom of heaven. What will be everyone's choice as to how they will spend their time and energy in the future?

Respectfully, you brother in Christ,
Doc

A. The question was what progressives and traditionals AS groups believe. Night answered that. You then criticized him personally. Night did not say he rejects the Sabbath.

B. You say :
Second point: I have not said, or infered, that you have not, nor do not, keep the Sabbath.

Yet here is what you said before:

With this answer you have quite clearly stated that you are not converted to the direct teachings and doctrines of the Bible nor do you accept the teachings and doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

If you, or any other person that has trouble accepting any part of the Sabbath truth, has a sincere desire to understand the Sabbath truth, I would be happy to study with you.

Sounds like inference to me.

C. Then you scolded us for doing what you do--posting here. Why are you a trainee moderator here if this arguing, which you engage in, is evil?

 

[NightEternal]

I find the tone of a lot of your posts distasteful.

By the way this has really been bothering me their is spelled "ei" not "ie". Wow, that is a load off my chest.

Way to avoid the issues and allow your bias to show in big, bright neon letters MVA. It's clear you are going to give Doc a free pass on this and award him a clean slate all across the board in this matter, so there's not much more I have to say to you on this issue.

BTW, how could you possibly know the 'tone' of anything I type on a computer? Unless I intentionally type something in a certain way so there is no doubt, that doesn't even make sense. So many Trads love to believe that I am some raving lunatic behind the keyboard, shaking my fist and yelling. Not even close to the truth! I am calm, reserved and completely articulate when I type in this thread, just as I would be if I were speaking face to face. Trust me, if my tone were 'hostile' there would be no question. There would be capital letters and large font galore.

But of course, some will just believe what they want.

I am well aware of the correct spelling of 'their'. I choose to spell it the way I want.

 

[NightEternal]

Doc, your post is offensive with its threatening undertones and fear-mongering disfellowshipping talk. Fear and coersion may have worked on the unsuspecting flock in the early days of SDAism, but your tactics don't have a hope in Hell of working on my generation of Adventists. Spiritual abuse and manipulation are not tolerated one bit by modern, progressive SDA's. So you can throw your bona-fides and credentials around all you want in your attempts to control those who don't think like you, but you will not intimidate me or crush my voice into silence.

You have deliberately claimed misinformation about me and you continue to do so. You have made me guilty by association just because I align with Progs who have outright denied certain fundamentals, even after I have provided a detailed list of where I stand on all the fundamentals. You took a post meant to address a wide spectrum of beliefs and vicously applied it to me personally as if I was referring to myself. Furthermore, you did imply the very charges against me that you claim you did not. I am not stupid, I know very well what you were hinting at.

In short, you made things personal-a common tactic that is used by the Trads and one they cannot seem to avoid or do not really want to avoid. Nonetheless, it will not go unaddressed when it happens.

You have made up your mind that I have outright denied the fundamentals of the church even though all evidence points to the fact that is not the case. That's fine, I am not about to waste my time trying to convince you otherwise. However, if you make personal acusations against me, I will meet them head-on. Make no mistake about it.

 

[NightEternal]

A. The question was what progressives and traditionals AS groups believe. Night answered that. You then criticized him personally. Night did not say he rejects the Sabbath.

B. You say :
Second point: I have not said, or infered, that you have not, nor do not, keep the Sabbath.

Yet here is what you said before:

With this answer you have quite clearly stated that you are not converted to the direct teachings and doctrines of the Bible nor do you accept the teachings and doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

If you, or any other person that has trouble accepting any part of the Sabbath truth, has a sincere desire to understand the Sabbath truth, I would be happy to study with you.

Sounds like inference to me.

C. Then you scolded us for doing what you do--posting here. Why are you a trainee moderator here if this arguing, which you engage in, is evil?

Thank you Tall. That about sums it up.

 

[Mankin]

I am sure we would all love to view our enemies as screaming lunatics that shake their fists at everything. Of course, for the most part it couldn't be farther from the truth.

Progs accept different beliefs in their system unlike some of the very strict trads which say "Believe this or begone!"

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

I sometimes do miss my completely rosey toned look on the SDA church before I came here. I thought everyone believed it all, and we were all like a big family. Go figure.

This is also why I'm not traditional or progressive. Do I believe in all the 28 fundies? In theory, yes..but I am far from knowing the scripture well enough to judge them. I also don't know much of EGW's stuff yet to judge her.

Oh, and Night..regardless of trads or progressives or anything..some of your choice of wording woulda had you banned from some forums I've been to in the past. No, this is not in any way a threat. I think it's what MVA meant, though. Your posts can come over very disrespectful (regardless of if you were baited or not), and that effects some people more than others.

How one reacts, or more importantly, does not react when they feel attacked..speaks volumes for impressions people have of them.

 

[NightEternal]

Crimson, I am not here to impress anyone or win any friends, least of all friends from a subgroup that have all but ruined the denomination I belong to in thier resistance of progress.

I tell it like it is. Please also note that the only Trads I meet with an aggressive approach are the outspoken, beligerent ones who come after me.

They know who they are.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Crimson, I am not here to impress anyone or win any friends, least of all friends from a subgroup that have all but ruined the denomination I belong to in thier resistance of progress.

I tell it like it is. Please also note that the only Trads I meet with an aggressive approach are the outspoken, beligerent ones who come after me.

They know who they are.

If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all.

 

[annie1speed]

It is true that Night Eternal is obviously not, repeat not running for Homecoming Queen here, BUT he does have the right to respond to incorrect things said about him.

And I'm still just really surprised at Doc's posts......

I think we could all benefit from some great advice given oh about two thousand years ago: Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

 

[mva1985]

When I first came into the SDA Church, I don't remember the existence of all these labels, particularly the two predominate ones here, namely Progressives and Traditionals.

Even though I am aware of the various mindsets within the SDA Church, I personally do not like labels myself.

Since, however, they are so predominate here, even to the extent of having their own separate sub-forums, what do Progressives and Traditionals have in common theologically?

For starters, do both Progressives and Traditionals accept the seventh-day Sabbath?

Daryl,

I think it is great to try and find some common ground, and I appreciate this post.

Again, I will answer this question. Yes, I accept the Sabbath as presented in the fourth commandment and I believe that it is still binding today.

 

[mva1985]

Way to avoid the issues and allow your bias to show in big, bright neon letters MVA. It's clear you are going to give Doc a free pass on this and award him a clean slate all across the board in this matter, so there's not much more I have to say to you on this issue.

BTW, how could you possibly know the 'tone' of anything I type on a computer? Unless I intentionally type something in a certain way so there is no doubt, that doesn't even make sense. So many Trads love to believe that I am some raving lunatic behind the keyboard, shaking my fist and yelling. Not even close to the truth! I am calm, reserved and completely articulate when I type in this thread, just as I would be if I were speaking face to face. Trust me, if my tone were 'hostile' there would be no question. There would be capital letters and large font galore.

But of course, some will just believe what they want.

I am well aware of the correct spelling of 'their'. I choose to spell it the way I want.

Night,

Regardless of what you may think your posts come across a certain way. I found your description kind of funny - I can picture you banging your head on the keyboard or head butting your monitor .

Hey, spell their whatever way you want I just had to get it off MY chest.

 

[LightWorker1967]

From the answers given to Daryl's question it would seem that none of the responders has ever done a through study of the Sabbath and all associated points. Also from those answers I am dumbfounded why any of you would want to use the name Seventh-day Adventist, or any part of it, in any way.

Night's response would seem to indicate a very good reason why there is not, and will never be, any theological agreement between the two camps.

Nights response:With this answer you have quite clearly stated that you are not converted to the direct teachings and doctrines of the Bible nor do you accept the teachings and doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Ergo; By any legal standard you are not a Seventh-day Adventist no matter if you have at some point been baptized and still have your name on the church membership rolls.

With your own words you have also admited that you get great delight and enjoyment from infuriating and frustrating traditional Seventh-day adventist.

Sorry Night, but this one old timer that you can do neither of the above, with or to. The things you and your fellows question or refute, I have shown to unbelivers, using only the Bible, to be true and irefutable. Has everyone that has been shown the truth accepted it? Certainly not! There have been some that have admited it but still refused to accept it. Some have cursed me and walked away. But praise the Lord some have accepted the trurh and continue to this day to seek more truth so that they will be ready when Christ returns, not just getting ready for His return.

If you, or any other person that has trouble accepting any part of the Sabbath truth, has a sincere desire to understand the Sabbath truth, I would be happy to study with you. If however all that is wanted is an opportunity for debate, rather than looking for truth, then we both would be wasting our time. My offer is made in good faith. Should you, or anyone else, choose to accept my offer I will be more than happy to study with you.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Doc, I personally find your words the most disheartening and disrespectful that I've read in the forum so far. This brings great sadness for me.

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

"Isn't there anything that is held in common between the Traditionals and Progressives, as they have been labelled here?"

I don't think I have seen any major disagreement over the state of the dead. I would hazard a guess that both traditional and progressive adventists are conditionalists.

 

[NightEternal]

The wheat and tare shall grow together to the very end. I don't agree with those who try to rid the progs from our church. That isn't our job.

Amazing. Immediately presumes himself to be wheat and automatically assumes his Adventist subgroup are all wheat. Amazing. And here I thought only God determined such a thing.

But in this forum, it's very different. Because the progs aren't as vocal in the real church setting as they are in the internet setting

Baloney. That is where you are flat-out wrong. I make all of my concerns very well known in both my own local church and any SDA church I find myself visiting, whether it be Sabbath School, prayer meeting or Bible study. I also know many Progs who are very outspoken about thier views in the local churches as well.

since there is no accountability here.

Yeah, okay. If you presume I have not discussed and addressed the same issues in local churches as I have here, you are sadly mistaken.

BTW, we are accountable to God for everything we say here, not you, not the Trads, not a pastor and not the GC. So save the ominous fear-mongering proclamations.

I don't know what sort of Nazi theological ethnic-cleansing system you envision our denomination to be based on, but it is not nearly an accurate reflection of the general SDA landscape in most churches I have been to.

 

[JonMiller]

I admit, I don't go announcing that I drink alcohol, nor that I have a porn problem in church. And the one time others have talked about alcohol (about how they used it when they were young), I haven't said anything because I don't know if they are struggling with alcoholism or not (I think that some people shouldn't drink). But maybe I am being hypocrital... I don't know.

If anyone were to ask me directly though.. I would answer honestly.

JM

 

[LightWorker1967]

Isn't that like asking what do Sadducees and Pharisees have in common?

I'm thinking that BOTH being children of God counts.

 

[OntheDL]

The wheat and tare shall grow together to the very end. I don't agree with those who try to rid the progs from our church. That isn't our job.

Amazing. Immediately presumes himself to be wheat and automatically assumes his Adventist subgroup are all wheat. Amazing. And here I thought only God determined such a thing.

But in this forum, it's very different. Because the progs aren't as vocal in the real church setting as they are in the internet setting

Baloney. That is where you are flat-out wrong. I make all of my concerns very well known in both my own local church and any SDA church I find myself visiting, whether it be Sabbath School, prayer meeting or Bible study. I also know many Progs who are very outspoken about thier views in the local churches as well.

since there is no accountability here.

Yeah, okay. If you presume I have not discussed and addressed the same issues in local churches as I have here, you are sadly mistaken.

BTW, we are accountable to God for everything we say here, not you, not the Trads, not a pastor and not the GC. So save the ominous fear-mongering proclamations.

I don't know what sort of Nazi theological ethnic-cleansing system you envision our denomination to be based on, but it is not nearly an accurate reflection of the general SDA landscape in most churches I have been to.

You need to take a seat and calm down. I wasn't even talking to you. Anger kills your liver and rubs your system of vitamin C. Breath in, breath out.