What Do Progressives Have In Common Theologically With Traditionals?

[thecountrydoc]

Hi MVA,

Thank you for your kind remarks. With age I have learned not to be overly sensitive about almost anything that is said to, or about, me. However I will defend my faith with all the vigor that I posess. All that I can ask of anyone that may disagree with me is to explain their point of view from a biblical standpoint and allow me to explain my viewpoint from a biblical prespective. God's Word is always the last and final word on any topic or subject,

One of my favorite sayings is; People change daily, principals never do.

Your friend and brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[JonMiller]

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Hmm? How is this relevant? I do delite myself in the Lord. And in the time when I don't have an opportunity to do so, I entertain myself... rather than just lying in bed doing nothing.

Christ said (clarifying), that the Sabbath wasn't meant to be a burden. Which the pharisees had turned it into, as have many SDAs of today.

Christ's disciples ground grain in their hands on the Sabbath, they picked food, Christ healed on the Sabbath. They went out to eat on the Sabbath.

It wasn't a burden.

JM

 

[Sophia7]

I may be wrong, but last I recall, you cannot respond to a post that you intend to report or you make that report null and void.

That's no longer in the rules.

 

[Sophia7]

Hi MVA,

Thank you for your kind remarks. With age I have learned not to be overly sensitive about almost anything that is said to, or about, me. However I will defend my faith with all the vigor that I posess. All that I can ask of anyone that may disagree with me is to explain their point of view from a biblical standpoint and allow me to explain my viewpoint from a biblical prespective. God's Word is always the last and final word on any topic or subject,

One of my favorite sayings is; People change daily, principals never do.

Your friend and brother in Christ,
Doc

But if you want people to listen to you, Doc, it would help if you didn't start out by telling them that they're not really Adventists and that if they don't agree with you about what the Bible says, then they haven't studied thoroughly enough.

Also, if you want to exclude the Progressives from Adventism, why don't you put some pressure on the GC to disfellowship them all? Otherwise, you're stuck with them as a part of the church.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

I think this is going a bit off topic, guys.

 

[tall73]

I think this is going a bit off topic, guys.

Why? The topic is whether there is common ground. Statements that some from a certain camp are not really Adventist WOULD give an indicator of how much common ground there is.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Sophia,

In your last post you said:

But if you want people to listen to you, Doc, it would help if you didn't start out by telling them that they're not really Adventists and that if they don't agree with you about what the Bible says, then they haven't studied thoroughly enough.

Also, if you want to exclude the Progressives from Adventism, why don't you put some pressure on the GC to disfellowship them all? Otherwise, you're stuck with them as a part of the church.

It is important to note that it was Night who refueted the basic foundational beliefs of Adventism which in effect he was disclaiming to be a believer in the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Without a belief in any church's doctrines and teachings it becomes impossible to be considered a practicing member of that church/denomination.

You and Tall have at least been honest enough to admit that you are no longer Seventh-day Adventst.

Next, it is not important that anyone agree with me on any topic or subject that is found in the Scriptures. What is important is to let the Bible become it's own interprater and take the Word of God as our only guide. This is not the first time I've offered to study with progressives or to listen to their views but so far there have been no takers.

As for approaching the GC, I'm fairly certain that you are well aware of the effectivness of doing that or all progressives would be applying for recognition of themselves and their beliefs. On the other hand what has been said on these boards alone would be more than enough to jeopardize the membership of anyone that claims to share the same beliefs that have been stated here.

For the moment I must lay the 'ol body down. My offer to study on these topics still stands.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[JonMiller]

Please point out what has been posted that is worthy of 'disfellowship'?

If we are going to disfellowship everyone who disagrees with one of the 28 fundamentals we would disfellowship a lot of people, and many of our founders don't agree with the 28 fundamentals.

Additionally, a lot of people do agree with the 28.. but not your version (interpretation) of the 28. Maybe you are wrong in your interpretation and they are right? And why are we making beleiving the 28 fundamentals so important anyways?

Finally, most SDAs of the world don't beleive all 28 fundamentals in the 'correct' interpreation of the traditionals. In fact, I would think that 90% don't, as most of our missions (where most of our members are) focus on Christ rather than on the 28 fundamentals. Restricting the membership to those who hold the traditional interpreation of the 28 fundamentals would leave you a couple hundred thousand adventists. And really, if they are honest with themselves, many of the 'traditionals' don't beleive in all 28 of the fundamentals either (for example, the trinity).

Since those who interpret the 28 fundamentals in the traditional way, and who beleive in all 28 are in the minority, maybe you should disfellowship yourselves.. rather than try and drive out members of the church.

JM
(I admit that I don't have experience in our missions. However, lots of my relatives do... and the experience has in every case made them more 'big tent' adventists than not.)

 

[moicherie]

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Quote the whole chapter in Isaiah, even fact in the previous ones not just one text, in that case don't go to church/eat food/ wear nice clothes/have a decent church programme just in case its pleasurable for you......

 

[moicherie]

Hi MVA,

Thank you for your kind remarks. With age I have learned not to be overly sensitive about almost anything that is said to, or about, me. However I will defend my faith with all the vigor that I posess. All that I can ask of anyone that may disagree with me is to explain their point of view from a biblical standpoint and allow me to explain my viewpoint from a biblical prespective. God's Word is always the last and final word on any topic or subject,

One of my favorite sayings is; People change daily, principals never do.

Your friend and brother in Christ,
Doc

To be fair Doc you made some accusations in your response that are totally untrue, please state where any one in this forum that is an Adventist questioned the validity of the Sabbath? How do you now who is not converted to the direct teachings and doctrines of the bible? Have you appointed yourself as the Adventist Inquisition? What is the 'legal standard' to be an Adventist, whether you like it or not as long as one is a baptised member of the church one is a 'legal Adventist' until said person asks for their name to be removed from the church records.
The phrase glasshouses and stones come to mind

 

[JonMiller]

I tihnk that there is someone who is still counted as an Adventist by the church who doesn't beleive that the Sabbath is the right. But I didn't see anywhere where Night said that he didn't, and it is to Night that CountryDoc was replying.

JM

 

[sentipente]

I have found Doc to be kind and considerate, and very willing to take of his time to explain things to people. You don't have to agree with him if you don't want to.

And this post is very disrespectful of one of our elders. (No offense meant to your age Doc). I was raised to respect my elders.

Elders must learn to curb their tongues. Age is no excuse. I notice that you chose not to comment on Doc's post, or did I miss something?

 

[sentipente]

All that I can ask of anyone that may disagree with me is to explain their point of view from a biblical standpoint and allow me to explain my viewpoint from a biblical prespective. God's Word is always the last and final word on any topic or subject,

Challenge accepted under the conditions offered.

 

[DarylFawcett]

I think this is going a bit off topic, guys.

Yes, it is going off topic, as I asked about what is held in common, not what is different.

Let me open this as wide as possible by asking, "Isn't there anything that is held in common between the Traditionals and Progressives, as they have been labelled here?"

 

[DarylFawcett]

As I had thought that there would be common ground regarding the Sabbath, I began with the question on the Sabbath and quoting the 4th Commandment as that wording is straight from the Bible, however, the type of replies I saw here surprised me greatly!

 

[moicherie]

As I had thought that there would be common ground regarding the Sabbath, I began with the question on the Sabbath and quoting the 4th Commandment as that wording is straight from the Bible, however, the type of replies I saw here surprised me greatly!

What surprises you? The general response? Or responses on the Sabbath? For no one, Traditional or Progressive has questioned whether Saturday is the Sabbath or not. So there is no difference there.

 

[OntheDL]

Daryl, your attempts to pigeon-hole and box us all neatly into categories will not work. There are a variety of different schools of thought in Progressive Adventism. We do not all think alike nor believe the same things. Unlike the Trads, there is no pre-determined, programmed destination to the search for doctrinal truth with us. We do not take comfort in scores of people believing in the exact same thing like you guys do-we delight in variety and individuality in regards to our spiritual journeys. We know it infuriates and frustrates you guys that we are not confined to the SDA box limitations, and that fact is what brings us joy.

Even if you could get us all to agree on the Sabbath doctrine, there are still so many varying ideas amongst us Progs in regards to it's nature, how binding it is, how it is to be observed, New/Old covenant issues, Moral/Ceremonial issues, Christ the True Sabbath Rest, seal of God/mark of the beast, etc.

You are attempting the impossible. This one issue alone will bog you down until the cows come home.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

So basically you don't believe the truth is universal and unchanging. But rather your definition of truth depends on your individual understanding.

The bible gives a revealing phrase the saints 'keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus'.

 

[OntheDL]

When I first came into the SDA Church, I don't remember the existence of all these labels, particularly the two predominate ones here, namely Progressives and Traditionals.

Even though I am aware of the various mindsets within the SDA Church, I personally do not like labels myself.

Since, however, they are so predominate here, even to the extent of having their own separate sub-forums, what do Progressives and Traditionals have in common theologically?

For starters, do both Progressives and Traditionals accept the seventh-day Sabbath?

I think here is the problem of your post, Daryl...

God does not ask us to accept and observe the seventh-day sabbath. He askes us to keep it holy.

Can an unholy man keep the sabbath holy?

There is a drastic difference of understanding of the sabbath between the two groups.

 

[tall73]

Yes, it is going off topic, as I asked about what is held in common, not what is different.

Let me open this as wide as possible by asking, "Isn't there anything that is held in common between the Traditionals and Progressives, as they have been labelled here?"

If I asked what there was in common between north and south and the answer was "nothing", did that not answer my question?

I suspect there are a number of similarities between the two groups. But if you ask a question that looks for possibilities, then you have to accept that some proposed possibilities won't turn out to be realities. And that will highlight the things that are not in common.

 

[OntheDL]

I actually see Night as more of an SDA than most of the 'traditional' camp here. More representative of SDAs at least.

Yes, from the pure numbers POV, it is true.

Yes, I do keep the Sabbath. Not the same way as others. I (for the most part) don't work, I do however exercise on the Sabbath. And despite talking to fairly conservative people about it (who came down to saying I shouldn't exercise in order to show other people I am keeping the Sabbath, which doesn't work for me), I still think it is fine to exercise on the Sabbath.

I also play games/entertain myself on the Sabbath, but feel it would be better spent doing on, more religious things. However, I don't have that many religious things to do, however, I do what I can do.
JM

Isa 58
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Clearly exercize and playing games fall into the catagory of doing thine own ways and finding thine own pleasure.

For everything that

1. has nothing to do with the Lord
2. can be done on another day of the week,

should not be done on the sabbath.