What Do Progressives Have In Common Theologically With Traditionals?

[DarylFawcett]

When I first came into the SDA Church, I don't remember the existence of all these labels, particularly the two predominate ones here, namely Progressives and Traditionals.

Even though I am aware of the various mindsets within the SDA Church, I personally do not like labels myself.

Since, however, they are so predominate here, even to the extent of having their own separate sub-forums, what do Progressives and Traditionals have in common theologically?

For starters, do both Progressives and Traditionals accept the seventh-day Sabbath?

 

[NightEternal]

Daryl, your attempts to pigeon-hole and box us all neatly into categories will not work. There are a variety of different schools of thought in Progressive Adventism. We do not all think alike nor believe the same things. Unlike the Trads, there is no pre-determined, programmed destination to the search for doctrinal truth with us. We do not take comfort in scores of people believing in the exact same thing like you guys do-we delight in variety and individuality in regards to our spiritual journeys. We know it infuriates and frustrates you guys that we are not confined to the SDA box limitations, and that fact is what brings us joy.

Even if you could get us all to agree on the Sabbath doctrine, there are still so many varying ideas amongst us Progs in regards to it's nature, how binding it is, how it is to be observed, New/Old covenant issues, Moral/Ceremonial issues, Christ the True Sabbath Rest, seal of God/mark of the beast, etc.

You are attempting the impossible. This one issue alone will bog you down until the cows come home.

 

[mva1985]

When I first came into the SDA Church, I don't remember the existence of all these labels, particularly the two predominate ones here, namely Progressives and Traditionals.

Even though I am aware of the various mindsets within the SDA Church, I personally do not like labels myself.

Since, however, they are so predominate here, even to the extent of having their own separate sub-forums, what do Progressives and Traditionals have in common theologically?

For starters, do both Progressives and Traditionals accept the seventh-day Sabbath?

Daryl,

I answer the question Night won't. Yes I accept the seventh-day Sabbbath.

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

You would most likely find agreement on this if you keep it at the superficial level, but it is the secondary questions where the difference may be evident.

I think a progressive would generaly accept the seventh-day sabbath (as i do), but might ask questions like, "does it have to be exclusively the seventh-day?" (as i do)

Another question would be, "what does the Sabbath mean?" Is the sabbath merely a law to keep or does it have other significance? (I personally see a connection between the sabbath and social justice movements, liberation and equality. Conservatives may not be entirely comfortable with that.)

 

[moicherie]

Yes I accept the seventh day Sabbath as being Saturday (other Christians can also say they accept the seventh day Sabbath but would call it Sunday so your question is a bit vague-lol.)
Keeping things on a superficial level both groups accept a belief in God/Creator etc
Both groups accept a belief that Jesus of Nazareth son of Mary and stepson of Joseph as the Messiah.
(Besides we only have the split here due to internal politics there is no organised formal split in your average local Adventist church)

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

For starters, do both Progressives and Traditionals accept the seventh-day Sabbath?

Night was very good in his answer. It does not specify anything. As many Sunday meeting churches would accept the seventh-day Sabbath. What does that mean? That they accept that Jews keep the Seventh day Sabbath. Does it mean that by accept we practice all the Jewish rules about Sabbath Keeping. Do traditionals follow those rules? Does it mean that one can accept the seventh-day sabbath and yet treat everyday the same or allow others to do as their conscience sees fit?

The problem with the idea of this thread is that some begin with the assumptions about their beliefs as the ideal yet they don't even have anywhere that states their ideal, it is just in their mind. As far as I know the SDA church has never presented an official position about what one can and cannot do on the seventh-day sabbath. And I hope they never try, because as we saw with the revision of the Baptismal vows they really behave in a poor manner.

 

[thecountrydoc]

From the answers given to Daryl's question it would seem that none of the responders has ever done a through study of the Sabbath and all associated points. Also from those answers I am dumbfounded why any of you would want to use the name Seventh-day Adventist, or any part of it, in any way.

Night's response would seem to indicate a very good reason why there is not, and will never be, any theological agreement between the two camps.

Nights response:

"Daryl, your attempts to pigeon-hole and box us all neatly into categories will not work. There are a variety of different schools of thought in Progressive Adventism. We do not all think alike nor believe the same things. Unlike the Trads, there is no pre-determined, programmed destination to the search for doctrinal truth with us. We do not take comfort in scores of people believing in the exact same thing like you guys do-we delight in variety and individuality in regards to our spiritual journeys. We know it infuriates and frustrates you guys that we are not confined to the SDA box limitations, and that fact is what brings us joy.

Even if you could get us all to agree on the Sabbath doctrine, there are still so many varying ideas amongst us Progs in regards to it's nature, how binding it is, how it is to be observed, New/Old covenant issues, Moral/Ceremonial issues, Christ the True Sabbath Rest, seal of God/mark of the beast, etc.

You are attempting the impossible. This one issue alone will bog you down until the cows come home."{highlights added}

REQUESTED EDIT:
"This answer expresses a worrying lack of acceptance of the direct teachings and doctrines of the Bible and the teachings and doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church."

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With your own words you have also admited that you get great delight and enjoyment from infuriating and frustrating traditional Seventh-day adventist.

Sorry Night, but this one old timer that you can do neither of the above, with or to. The things you and your fellows question or refute, I have shown to unbelivers, using only the Bible, to be true and irefutable. Has everyone that has been shown the truth accepted it? Certainly not! There have been some that have admited it but still refused to accept it. Some have cursed me and walked away. But praise the Lord some have accepted the trurh and continue to this day to seek more truth so that they will be ready when Christ returns, not just getting ready for His return.

If you, or any other person that has trouble accepting any part of the Sabbath truth, has a sincere desire to understand the Sabbath truth, I would be happy to study with you. If however all that is wanted is an opportunity for debate, rather than looking for truth, then we both would be wasting our time. My offer is made in good faith. Should you, or anyone else, choose to accept my offer I will be more than happy to study with you.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[sentipente]

Daryl,

I answer the question Night won't. Yes I accept the seventh-day Sabbbath.

Very funny considering that no one knows what it means to accept the seventh-day Sabbath. I doubt you will find anyone on earth who denies that the seventh day is the Sabbath.

 

[Sophia7]

Ergo, those who disagree with the TSDA view of the Sabbath must not really understand it because they haven't studied it thoroughly enough? Wow, Doc, you're making a lot of assumptions.

By the way, what is the "legal standard" for being a Seventh-day Adventist, and who sets it?

 

[JonMiller]

Very funny considering that no one knows what it means to accept the seventh-day Sabbath. I doubt you will find anyone on earth who denies that the seventh day is the Sabbath.

Some protestants do.

JM

 

[JonMiller]

I actually see Night as more of an SDA than most of the 'traditional' camp here. More representative of SDAs at least.

Yes, I do keep the Sabbath. Not the same way as others. I (for the most part) don't work, I do however exercise on the Sabbath. And despite talking to fairly conservative people about it (who came down to saying I shouldn't exercise in order to show other people I am keeping the Sabbath, which doesn't work for me), I still think it is fine to exercise on the Sabbath.

I also play games/entertain myself on the Sabbath, but feel it would be better spent doing on, more religious things. However, I don't have that many religious things to do, however, I do what I can do.

JM

 

[DarylFawcett]

I didn't have any ulterior or hidden motives when I created this thread.

All I wanted to do is to see what common ground, if any, exists between the two camps as labeled by the respective sub-forums.

Perhaps I didn't ask the starter question clear enough, so let me ask it again.

Do we all accept the fact that the Sabbath is the day that God has asked us to observe as stated in the 4th Commandment as quoted below?

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

[DarylFawcett]

I am only asking for an answer based on the text I just quoted.

I am not asking for a debate on how the Sabbath should or shouldn't be observed.

I wish we could dialogue without all the defense barriers going up. If we can't dialogue here as brothers and sisters in Christ, then how will we be able to dialogue in the New Jerusalem, or on the New Earth? (This is a rhetorical question to which I am not really looking for a response.)

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Very funny considering that no one knows what it means to accept the seventh-day Sabbath. I doubt you will find anyone on earth who denies that the seventh day is the Sabbath.

I could name a few I know. *lol*

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

I didn't have any ulterior or hidden motives when I created this thread.

All I wanted to do is to see what common ground, if any, exists between the two camps as labeled by the respective sub-forums.

Perhaps I didn't ask the starter question clear enough, so let me ask it again.

Do we all accept the fact that the Sabbath is the day that God has asked us to observe as stated in the 4th Commandment as quoted below?

[/SIZE]

I think this is a good thread, actually. If we all behave, we may actually be able to gain something from it.

 

[JonMiller]

I didn't have any ulterior or hidden motives when I created this thread.

All I wanted to do is to see what common ground, if any, exists between the two camps as labeled by the respective sub-forums.

Perhaps I didn't ask the starter question clear enough, so let me ask it again.

Do we all accept the fact that the Sabbath is the day that God has asked us to observe as stated in the 4th Commandment as quoted below?

[/size]

Where does it say we shouldn't exercise? Where does it say we shouldn't entertain ourselves?

I agree we shouldn't work, and do my best not to. But just like someone might take their ram out of the pit, so sometimes work is unavoidable.

JM

 

[mva1985]

I think this is a good thread, actually. If we all behave, we may actually be able to gain something from it.

Crimson,

I agree.

 

[Dizahab]

From the answers given to Daryl's question it would seem that none of the responders has ever done a through study of the Sabbath and all associated points.

Arrogant false assumption. I have read many books on the Sabbath, including Ratzlaff, Bachiocchi and Jewish historians. I know every argument for and against it inside and out.

Also from those answers I am dumbfounded why any of you would want to use the name Seventh-day Adventist, or any part of it, in any way.

Same old tired false charges. Don't you Trads ever get any new material?

Once again, more arrogant false assumptions. For some reason you presume to believe I do not observe the Sabbath and have denied it. Where such a preposterous idea comes from I don't know, but it is certainly not from anything I have asserted in my post. I have said no such thing and I have made no such denials, yet you, for some reason, choose to spew such slanderous, vomitous nonsense against me.

Night's response would seem to indicate a very good reason why there is not, and will never be, any theological agreement between the two camps.

Once again you assume I am denying the Sabbath. Not even remotely the case, yet you continue to bear false witness against me. Typical, tired Trad tactic. It's so old and predictable by now.

REQUESTED EDIT: "This answer expresses a worrying lack of acceptance of the direct teachings and doctrines of the Bible and the teachings and doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church."

More arrogant assumptions and slanderous false charges. Consider this post reported.

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More arrogant false assumptions.
Your papal declarations don't scare me Doc. and neither does your inquisitional arrogance.

The bottom line is that I could care less what you have to say on the matter. I am a baptized member of the SDA church and your grand pronouncements do not change that fact one iota.

With your own words you have also admited that you get great delight and enjoyment from infuriating and frustrating traditional Seventh-day adventist.

Of course I do. I will attack thier theology and false beliefs as much as I desire and you have nothing to say about it.

Sorry Night, but this one old timer that you can do neither of the above, with or to. The things you and your fellows question or refute, I have shown to unbelivers, using only the Bible, to be true and irefutable.

Really? You don't get around the internet much then. Many so-called 'irrefutable' Trad beliefs have been demolished, even by some of our own non-traditional SDA scholars and thought leaders.

Has everyone that has been shown the truth accepted it? Certainly not! There have been some that have admited it but still refused to accept it. Some have cursed me and walked away. But praise the Lord some have accepted the trurh and continue to this day to seek more truth so that they will be ready when Christ returns, not just getting ready for His return.

Save your dead-end, bankrupt salvation theology that rapes assurance of salvation. I want none of it, it makes me sick.

I am saved. I am ready NOW as a result of Christ's merits in place of my own. Nothing you or your legalistic TSDA cohorts can say will ever take me from His hands and rob me of my salvation. HA! Pure arrogance for you to think you could even come close to doing so!

If you, or any other person that has trouble accepting any part of the Sabbath truth, has a sincere desire to understand the Sabbath truth, I would be happy to study with you. If however all that is wanted is an opportunity for debate, rather than looking for truth, then we both would be wasting our time. My offer is made in good faith. Should you, or anyone else, choose to accept my offer I will be more than happy to study with you.

Once again, false assumptions and slander. Where have I ever denied the Sabbath anywhere in this thread? Nowhere. Not in one single place. Yet this charge still persists even though I have not even hinted at any such thing.

Since I have no issues with the Sabbath, you can save your insulting, consdecending, arrogant offer. Not in a million years would I ever submit to the instruction of an ultra-conservative, right-wing, Trad SDA such as yourself.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

This constant tagline of 'respectfully' is an insult to our intelligence. You have not one single bit of respect in the things you claim against us Progs and don't for a minute think you have fooled us into believing you do.

I once again regret ever voting for you as mod. I revoke it utterly and completely. Your agenda is clear, and it is amazing to me you stoop to such underhanded tactics as you have in this post, the worst offender being balatantly breaking the forum rule that stipulates you cannot charge others here who are professed, baptized members of the curch as false SDA's..

You are not fit to be a mod. You should be stripped of your position immediately.

I will do everything in my power to make sure this happens

I may be wrong, but last I recall, you cannot respond to a post that you intend to report or you make that report null and void.

 

[Dizahab]

Where does it say we shouldn't exercise? Where does it say we shouldn't entertain ourselves?

I agree we shouldn't work, and do my best not to. But just like someone might take their ram out of the pit, so sometimes work is unavoidable.

JM

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

 

[mva1985]

From the answers given to Daryl's question it would seem that none of the responders has ever done a through study of the Sabbath and all associated points.

Arrogant false assumption. I have read many books on the Sabbath, including Ratzlaff, Bachiocchi and Jewish historians. I know every argument for and against it inside and out.

Also from those answers I am dumbfounded why any of you would want to use the name Seventh-day Adventist, or any part of it, in any way.

Same old tired false charges. Don't you Trads ever get any new material?

Once again, more arrogant false assumptions. For some reason you presume to believe I do not observe the Sabbath and have denied it. Where such a preposterous idea comes from I don't know, but it is certainly not from anything I have asserted in my post. I have said no such thing and I have made no such denials, yet you, for some reason, choose to spew such slanderous, vomitous nonsense against me.

Night's response would seem to indicate a very good reason why there is not, and will never be, any theological agreement between the two camps.

Once again you assume I am denying the Sabbath. Not even remotely the case, yet you continue to bear false witness against me. Typical, tired Trad tactic. It's so old and predictable by now.

REQUESTED EDIT:"This answer expresses a worrying lack of acceptance of the direct teachings and doctrines of the Bible and the teachings and doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church."
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

More arrogant assumptions and slanderous false charges. Consider this post reported.

Ergo; By any legal standard you are not a Seventh-day Adventist no matter if you have at some point been baptized and still have your name on the church membership rolls.

More arrogant false assumptions.
Your papal declarations don't scare me Doc. and neither does your inquisitional arrogance.

The bottom line is that I could care less what you have to say on the matter. I am a baptized member of the SDA church and your grand pronouncements do not change that fact one iota.

With your own words you have also admited that you get great delight and enjoyment from infuriating and frustrating traditional Seventh-day adventist.

Of course I do. I will attack thier theology and false beliefs as much as I desire and you have nothing to say about it.

Sorry Night, but this one old timer that you can do neither of the above, with or to. The things you and your fellows question or refute, I have shown to unbelivers, using only the Bible, to be true and irefutable.

Really? You don't get around the internet much then. Many so-called 'irrefutable' Trad beliefs have been demolished, even by some of our own non-traditional SDA scholars and thought leaders.

Has everyone that has been shown the truth accepted it? Certainly not! There have been some that have admited it but still refused to accept it. Some have cursed me and walked away. But praise the Lord some have accepted the trurh and continue to this day to seek more truth so that they will be ready when Christ returns, not just getting ready for His return.

Save your dead-end, bankrupt salvation theology that rapes assurance of salvation. I want none of it, it makes me sick.

I am saved. I am ready NOW as a result of Christ's merits in place of my own. Nothing you or your legalistic TSDA cohorts can say will ever take me from His hands and rob me of my salvation. HA! Pure arrogance for you to think you could even come close to doing so!

If you, or any other person that has trouble accepting any part of the Sabbath truth, has a sincere desire to understand the Sabbath truth, I would be happy to study with you. If however all that is wanted is an opportunity for debate, rather than looking for truth, then we both would be wasting our time. My offer is made in good faith. Should you, or anyone else, choose to accept my offer I will be more than happy to study with you.

Once again, false assumptions and slander. Where have I ever denied the Sabbath anywhere in this thread? Nowhere. Not in one single place. Yet this charge still persists even though I have not even hinted at any such thing.

Since I have no issues with the Sabbath, you can save your insulting, consdecending, arrogant offer. Not in a million years would I ever submit to the instruction of an ultra-conservative, right-wing, Trad SDA such as yourself.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

This constant tagline of 'respectfully' is an insult to our intelligence. You have not one single bit of respect in the things you claim against us Progs and don't for a minute think you have fooled us into believing you do.

I once again regret ever voting for you as mod. I revoke it utterly and completely. Your agenda is clear, and it is amazing to me you stoop to such underhanded tactics as you have in this post, the worst offender being balatantly breaking the forum rule that stipulates you cannot charge others here who are professed, baptized members of the curch as false SDA's..

You are not fit to be a mod. You should be stripped of your position immediately.

I will do everything in my power to make sure this happens

I have found Doc to be kind and considerate, and very willing to take of his time to explain things to people. You don't have to agree with him if you don't want to.

And this post is very disrespectful of one of our elders. (No offense meant to your age Doc). I was raised to respect my elders.