What Do Calvinists have to Say about Cornelius?

[skypair]

Listen to what God said about Cornilius before he was saved (Acts 10:1-4, 31): "There was a certain man .. called Cornelius, a centurion .. A devout man and one that feared God with all his house and gave much alms to the people and prayed to God always." And the angel of God came to him and said, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God." Wow! Kinda brings tears to your eyes what we can do BEFORE we even hear the gospel, doesn't it Mr Calvin??

We know Cornelius was not saved by Peter's account in Acts 11:13, because the angel told him to send for Peter whereby he would hear the gospel and be saved;

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Cornelius was not saved until he heard the gospel from Peter and believed on Jesus, but he was able to do good works that God recognized as works of "righteousness" for years before he was saved.

But we also see that Cornelius was ABLE to believe BEFORE he received the Holy Spiri. ,Iin fact, we are told he received the Holy Spirit as a RESULT of believing the gospel. This refutes the Calvinist doctrine of Total Inability that teaches an unregenerate man is unable to believe the gospel.

Calvinists .. it's time to detox! Time to get that poison out of your heart that makes you think that man is Totally depraved, totally unable, and must be regenerated before they can do anything towards God or do anything that God thinks is "good." Oh, and then there's that icky FREEE WILL that Cornelius apparently had by which he chose to worship God before he was saved! Here is something to repent of (Acts 2:38) — faith in Calvinism!

skypair

 

[1watchman]

Interesting description of that truth about believing and receiving. Both Calvin and Arminius taught the two extremes of beliefs. Its a bit like ultra conservatisim and ultra liberalism --both miss the mark of truth. Man needs to take "all the counsel of God" and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth".

 

[98cwitr]

OP, your first sentence suggests you know nothing about what it is to "be saved." Those that are saved has always been, always have been, saved. There is no changing that.

 

[Cody2]

1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." KJV

 

[SarahsKnight]

Interesting description of that truth about believing and receiving. Both Calvin and Arminius taught the two extremes of beliefs. Its a bit like ultra conservatisim and ultra liberalism --both miss the mark of truth. Man needs to take "all the counsel of God" and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth".

I think that is a very wise observation, Watchman.

 

[Avid]

... Calvinists .. it's time to detox! Time to get that poison out of your heart that makes you think that man is Totally depraved, totally unable, and must be regenerated before they can do anything towards God or do anything that God thinks is "good." Oh, and then there's that icky FREEE WILL that Cornelius apparently had by which he chose to worship God before he was saved! Here is something to repent of (Acts 2:38) — faith in Calvinism!

There may be Calvinists that believe the way you have characterized them here, and certainly, there are people who do not understand the working of God in the hearts of people at all.

The fact that God worked in this man long before he heard the truth, made him seek God before he was looking the right place, and put him in the very place he needed to be to hear what God wanted him to believe, is not against the points of Calvinism that you have cited.

Personally, I am convinced that many people hear the five points of Calvinism, make up their own doctrines to go with them, and hold to that instead of the word of God. As others have described, I understood God's truth, and later discovered that certain aspects are covered by these points. A big difference, because I am NOT a Calvinist in the manner that has obviously caused you such distress.

This is a errant discussion, because people can hold to the points of Calvinism that you proposed were applicable here, and not think what you accused at all. Cornelius had an earthly father the same as everyone else, and had a fallen human nature. His motives and desires were as wrong as everyone else's, UNTIL God worked in his heart to stop him from going his own way, and caused him to seek the right way.

I do not see it explained exactly when or how it started, but at some point, Cornelius had a tender heart from God toward the people of God, and saw that their God was the right one. This worked humility in his heart that is as rare as can be. People sit in Church, and are faced with making the same discovery after YEARS of hearing the truth, or NOT hearing the truth, as is the case too often. We do not see exactly what God is doing in a person's heart in either case!

You may be disappointed in that you have not drawn out any of those sorts of "Calvinists" you had intended, or gotten into some heated debate over the simple truth of the scripture. However, you have not addressed the simple truth of the point of how Cornelius was born (in condemnation,) and how it was God that worked in him to seek the LORD in the first place.

You have not proven at all that God did not choose to do this from the foundation of the world, as the scriptures clearly state that He did.

Ephesians 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
​

I know you intend to argue with people here on this forum, but your disagreement is with the Apostle Paul, and the LORD that instructed him to write this very thing.
.

 

[pilgrim42]

I came across this statement on a website. Thought I would just share this different viewpoint:

I believe that Gentiles in those days—those who patiently continued in doing what was right, who had the things of the Jewish Torah written on their hearts and were seeking a higher life—I believe that they were right with God (“saved”) and in the Final Judgement will receive glory, honour and immortality (see Romans 2:6-16). God didn’t enter a special covenant with Gentiles (as he did with Jews) but we’re not to suppose as some hyper-Calvinists do that that automatically damned them. The holy grace of God that was extended to them was brought to them (however we wish to express it in atonement theory) in the Lord Jesus Christ. This was true also of Jews who lived in pre-Christ days (compare Hebrews 9:15). For obvious reasons these pre-Christ Gentiles (and Jews) were not required to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be “saved”. He hadn’t yet arrived and the gospel about him was not being proclaimed. Life with God (salvation) was possible only through Jesus Christ but it wasn’t essential that these people know about it. If it had been essential for everyone to hear and know of Jesus Christ and commit to him in faith then, obviously, no one prior to his coming could have been “saved”. Express it as we will, but God extended holy grace to pre-Christ people prior to but always in view of the coming of Jesus Christ.

Ken

 

[skypair]

OP, your first sentence suggests you know nothing about what it is to "be saved." Those that are saved has always been, always have been, saved. There is no changing that.

Oh, my! And always regenerate, eh? Like as by infant baptism? So you were never a lost sinner?

Try this: Cornelius was like those not mentioned in Ro 1:18-21 who DID acknowledge God while they were lost and DID glorify and thank Him. God heard his prayers .. accepted his righteous works .. and protected him until He would send him more "light." He, like Job, was a "just man" before God on account of not knowingly having trespassed against God, Ro 7:9. The "law" hadn't come to him yet.

Now there is one point of juncture of your life with Cornelius'. As a child, I am quite sure that you went to church and glorified and thanked God without knowing of any personal sin you had committed against Him. You, too, were "safe" with God, still innocent until He would reveal His righteousness to which you could not match up, Ro 1:18. He also, at some time later, probably showed you the gospel .. but you thought you were already saved so, unlike Cornelius, you didn't reply.

skypair

 

[skypair]

There may be Calvinists that believe the way you have characterized them here,
… The fact that God worked in this man long before he heard the truth, made him seek God before he was looking the right place, and put him in the very place he needed to be to hear what God wanted him to believe, is not against the points of Calvinism that you have cited.

Well sure it is! They claim (as you do later) that we are all born condemned and unable to do that which Cornelius clearly had done.

A big difference, because I am NOT a Calvinist in the manner that has obviously caused you such distress.

While it is true that some Calvinists have been saved by repentantly praying to God and giving Him their lives, even these have often turned out of the way to Calvinism and its doctrines (my pastor-nephew included). And yes, that does cause me distress — and God, too!

Cornelius had an earthly father the same as everyone else, and had a fallen human nature. His motives and desires were as wrong as everyone else's, UNTIL God worked in his heart to stop him from going his own way, and caused him to seek the right way.

This is the heart of the truth — we are not born as Calvinism describes. We are born with a HUMAN nature .. we are instinctive creatures without any malice or sin. If we grow up in a Christian home, it is very likely that we will, like Cornelius, acknowledge God, glorify Him, and thank Him, Ro 1:21. This is what is called believing the "everlasting gospel." However, we soon will knowingly sin against God (Ro 7:9) and that one sin blossoms into "SIN NATURE." From that time on, at some point we need to repent to God calling on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation, Acts 2:38.

This is the "born-born again" scenario the Bible paints of us here in America, anyway. We are "just" with God though not saved. We aren't born with the "righteousness of God" but simply "just" because we are innocent. We sin .. now we need to be born again.

I do not see it explained exactly when or how it started, but at some point, Cornelius had a tender heart from God toward the people of God, and saw that their God was the right one.

There is another "Cornelius" in the Bible if you would like to study him, too — Job. Job believed the everlasting gospel and was in fellowship with God before he was saved, too. In Job 7:20, he committed his first willful sin — bitterness and blaming God for his plight. In Job 33, Elihu is God's servant to bring Job the gospel (33:27-31). In Job 42:5-6, Job "repents in dust and ashes" and submits himself to God .. whereupon God gives him a new life, 42:10.

So, no .. God does NOT give "new hearts" to the unsaved. If we respond favorably to Him even in our lost condition, He will give us more light.

You may be disappointed in that you have not drawn out any of those sorts of "Calvinists" you had intended, or gotten into some heated debate over the simple truth of the scripture.

It will not surprise me if people have to rethink their theology in light of this thread.

However, you have not addressed the simple truth of the point of how Cornelius was born (in condemnation,) and how it was God that worked in him to seek the LORD in the first place.

I hope you can see it now. None of us was born in condemnation. We come by it quite naturally as we instinctively try to save ourselves every minute of our lives until we meet Jesus!

skypair

 

[skypair]

I came across this statement on a website. Thought I would just share this different viewpoint:

I believe that Gentiles in those days—those who patiently continued in doing what was right, who had the things of the Jewish Torah written on their hearts and were seeking a higher life—I believe that they were right with God (“saved”) and in the Final Judgement will receive glory, honour and immortality (see Romans 2:6-16). God didn’t enter a special covenant with Gentiles (as he did with Jews)…

First off, we have NO evidence that Cornelius was a practicing Jew. That would have defeated the entire story about faith going to the Gentiles through Peter.

Second, there is a gospel that even the heathen are able to come into — the "everlasting gospel." (Ro 1:21, Rev 14:6) We come into it "naturally," too, if we 1) acknowledge God, 2) give Him glory, 3) and thanks, and 4) are unaware of personal sin, trespass against God. You are kept "safe" as a child by it until the day you deny God by knowingly sinning against Him, Ro 7:9. It is at that point that you need a Savior.

skypair

 

[Avid]

Well sure it is! They claim (as you do later) that we are all born condemned and unable to do that which Cornelius clearly had done.

This point I made is clearly stated from scripture, and it is upon you to show scripture to support this odd position you are taking. You must show that Cornelius, a man born and matured before Jesus' Sacrifice on the Cross of Calvary, was not born into condemnation as every other person living. You must show how Cornelius was able to do any of what you are showing out of his own free will, and that God did not draw him, according to the very words of Jesus.

John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
​

It is upon you to make your case from scripture, and show that Jesus did not understand what He was saying. You need to address the scripture passage I showed before, and prove that Paul did not understand either.

While it is true that some Calvinists have been saved by repentantly praying to God and giving Him their lives, even these have often turned out of the way to Calvinism and its doctrines (my pastor-nephew included). And yes, that does cause me distress — and God, too!

You say you want to hear from Calvinists. It's clear you wish to argue with Calvinists. The truth of the scriptures is not embodied in Calvinism, and it is not the clear teaching that this is what is believed by Calvinists. That you admit there are people who are in error that hold forth Calvinist views is not a slight on the Calvinist view or Calvinism in general. I am certain you would not like me to hold against you the error of MANY I have talked to of your side of the debate that cannot answer ANY Bible point with ANYTHING, other than, "But John 3:16 says..."

This is the heart of the truth — we are not born as Calvinism describes. We are born with a HUMAN nature .. we are instinctive creatures without any malice or sin. If we grow up in a Christian home, it is very likely that we will, like Cornelius, acknowledge God, glorify Him, and thank Him, Ro 1:21. This is what is called believing the "everlasting gospel." However, we soon will knowingly sin against God (Ro 7:9) and that one sin blossoms into "SIN NATURE." From that time on, at some point we need to repent to God calling on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation, Acts 2:38.

Not sure what part of Calvinism says we are not born with a human nature! You should show the point or assertion you oppose here, as I have never seen such a thing. Man must be changed. The error you are giving is that no improvement, movement or change of any type occurs before SALVATION, except that it is done by the will of the flawed and rebellious man.

Casual observance will show that MOST babies will lie to get a little attention. I have heard it preached numerous times. They will quickly learn to get something by crying rather learn to appeal any other way. I know a dear girl that would cry ANYTIME she wanted anything, and that was in lieu of learning to talk much before she was 4 or 5.

This is the "born-born again" scenario the Bible paints of us here in America, anyway. We are "just" with God though not saved. We aren't born with the "righteousness of God" but simply "just" because we are innocent. We sin .. now we need to be born again.

You must give scripture if you expect ANYONE to accept this premise. It is clearly NOT a tenet of the holy scriptures that people are born into this world "just" before God. In fact, many scriptures show the exact opposite is true.

There is another "Cornelius" in the Bible if you would like to study him, too — Job. Job believed the everlasting gospel and was in fellowship with God before he was saved, too. In Job 7:20, he committed his first willful sin — bitterness and blaming God for his plight. In Job 33, Elihu is God's servant to bring Job the gospel (33:27-31). In Job 42:5-6, Job "repents in dust and ashes" and submits himself to God .. whereupon God gives him a new life, 42:10.

This is another example of how God works in people, NOT according to their own will, but according to His good pleasure. You might well join Job's two "friends" in the analogy. They had this same attitude toward Job that you are describing, and God told them to seek Job to pray for them, and to do sacrifice on their behalf, because Job was accepted by God, and they were not.

Where or how was it NOT in the realm of God and the will of God to allow these things? If God wanted Job to just have a happy, prosperous life as is sought by professing "Christians" these days, why would Job have any trouble? Satan himself said that Job was protected by God. This is part of what proves the point that God has certain people chosen from the foundation of the world. .

So, no .. God does NOT give "new hearts" to the unsaved. If we respond favorably to Him even in our lost condition, He will give us more light.

Never said He did. God does draw men to Christ. This is clear from scripture. God did honor the humble and obedient, though they were not "saved" according to the New Testament definition. They were better than other people, but even Job went to the heart of the Earth when he died.

It will not surprise me if people have to rethink their theology in light of this thread.

Not by anything presented here, because very little of it agrees with scripture. Some small aspects have some validity, but your comments are as far off as these Calvinists you try to accuse.

I hope you can see it now. None of us was born in condemnation. We come by it quite naturally as we instinctively try to save ourselves every minute of our lives until we meet Jesus!

You are mistaken. The Bible is clear on this truth. You and I were born with the traits of our parents. I see a photo of my grandfather from the First World War, and there is my older brother, who was born AFTER that grandfather died.

That were are born with a human nature, and are incapable of doing anything right in God's sight is clearly pointed out in Romans Chapter 8.

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
​

This is true of every person born of Adam. It is when God changes them do they begin to do differently. This change may not be immediate, though there is nothing I know of in scripture that states it cannot be. We do not know what God does to work in the hearts of unregenerate man before he knows to be concerned for his soul. John Bunyan wrote of this taking twelve years. It is clear that others may have taken more or less time to be drawn away from seeking self and sin to seeking the LORD with all their hearts.
.

 

[skypair]

You must show how Cornelius was able to do any of what you are showing out of his own free will, and that God did not draw him, according to the very words of Jesus.

I would never say that God doesn't draw men .. just not irresistibly. And yes, God draws all men per Jn 12:32, Ro 1:18-20, etal. And men are born innocent .. Ezek 18:20-21.

Not sure what part of Calvinism says we are not born with a human nature!

The part about "born condemned" that 98 said.

The error you are giving is that no improvement, movement or change of any type occurs before SALVATION,

It's no error .. God actually approved of Cornelius.

Casual observance will show that MOST babies will lie to get a little attention.

Yes, this is the "natural theology." It is the idea that we can save ourselves. It's an instinct — the survival instinct that GOD gave all creatures.

You must give scripture if you expect ANYONE to accept this premise. It is clearly NOT a tenet of the holy scriptures that people are born into this world "just" before God. In fact, many scriptures show the exact opposite is true.

Well, see here you, too, are asserting "condemned from birth." But except for poetic language of David talking about his flesh, you cannot prove this, either. Stick with what Ezek 18:20-21 says and you won't go wrong.

They had this same attitude toward Job that you are describing, and God told them to seek Job to pray for them, and to do sacrifice on their behalf, because Job was accepted by God, and they were not.

Yeah .. once Job was saved (42:5-6) God told them that!

Satan himself said that Job was protected by God. This is part of what proves the point that God has certain people chosen from the foundation of the world.

Job was protected because he acknowledged God, glorified Him and thanked Him .. like Cornelius. None of that saves .. it merely leaves one just for now. If he should die (if you had died as a child), God would consider Job "just" because he was innocent. What you are saying is that God condemns Job and infants if they die in the state of innocence. What judge do you know that convicts the innocent, avid???
.

God did honor the humble and obedient, though they were not "saved" according to the New Testament definition.

Right. They either were 1) innocent, 2) believed the "everlasting gospel" of God or 3) the "gospel of the kingdom" (OT "saved").

I realize that Reformers have problems with earlier means of salvation. They understand that they are saved and by the same faith as we have. Know what they DON'T understand? That salvation, specifically justification, comes when we repent calling on the name of God. OT or NT .. that is our required reply to God's gospel.

Not by anything presented here, because very little of it agrees with scripture. Some small aspects have some validity, but your comments are as far off as these Calvinists you try to accuse.

You appear to be saying that you are not familiar enough with mine or Calvinists belief to even be discussing it, avid. But I will reply to, I hope, clear up some issues on my side.

That were are born with a human nature, and are incapable of doing anything right in God's sight is clearly pointed out in Romans Chapter 8.

No one is born righteous in God's eyes .. that is true. That does not mean we are born guilty or condemned. Do you know what the problem is? We are born separated from God into this corrupt world of Satan's.

This is true of every person born of Adam. It is when God changes them do they begin to do differently. This change may not be immediate,…

It IS immediate .. upon repentance calling on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation. You are either saved or you are not, avid.

skypair

 

[skypair]

This is a fairly challenging thread for Calvinists, isn't it? You know, the beauty of it is that we were all once "Cornrlius's" when we were children. We all went to church, glorified and thanked God and God blessed us in the doing of these works — just as He did Cornelius and Job. Cornelius was taken right from that state into salvation when Peter came to him and preached salvation in Jesus Christ.

For Job, there was sin and then Elihhu who taught Job to repent to God for salvation (Job 33:27-28. And Job did, 42:5-6, and received a new life, 52:10

Throughout the testaments, then, we have this truth: That men must repent of their sin and sinful thoughts/nature and turn to doing God's will with their lives. Whose will was it to build the ark .. Noah's, who lived in a desert — or God's? Noah must have denied his own will and obeyed God's, right? We call that "repenting turning to God," Acts 26:20. It's what Paul preached. And so it was with Job, and the publican (Lk 18:13-14), and the thief (Lk 23:43), and on and on in the OT and NT, Acts 2:38, 3:19, etc..

skypair

 

[Avid]

Originally Posted by Avid
You must show how Cornelius was able to do any of what you are showing out of his own free will, and that God did not draw him, according to the very words of Jesus.
​

Originally Posted by skypair
I would never say that God doesn't draw men .. just not irresistibly. And yes, God draws all men per Jn 12:32, Ro 1:18-20, etal. And men are born innocent .. Ezek 18:20-21.

In all your post, you have proven nothing from scripture. Also, you have not addressed any of the scripture passages I cited to prove the truth of what I had stated. I'll remind you of it all the way through my reply...

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Originally Posted by Avid
Not sure what part of Calvinism says we are not born with a human nature!
​

Originally Posted by skypair

The part about "born condemned" that 98 said.

As much as I like 98, and as much as I think he has learned some important truths, and has a good grasp on what the Bible says, I have good reason to think his name is NOT John Calvin. What little I know of him, he is NOT a professor teaching in one of these Calvinist instututions that I have heard about on these Forums. Therefore, using 98 as your source for the basis of Calvinism is a NON-ANSWER.

Originally Posted by Avid
The error you are giving is that no improvement, movement or change of any type occurs before SALVATION,
​

Originally Posted by skypair
It's no error .. God actually approved of Cornelius.

Another non-answer. I did not say God did not approve of him. It is clear from what we read in scripture that God approved of Cornelius before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
​

To say this does not mean that God just waited for Cornelius to think or say something, and then He sent the Apostle to tell him what to believe so he could be saved. As far back as early childhood, God preserves the person and instructs him and allows hard lessons to direct his behavior, that one day, he will be in the right place and have the right attitude and thoughts that make it seem right to submit to God.

Originally Posted by Avid
Casual observance will show that MOST babies will lie to get a little attention.
​

Originally Posted by skypair
Yes, this is the "natural theology." It is the idea that we can save ourselves. It's an instinct — the survival instinct that GOD gave all creatures.

Have no idea what you are getting at here. The fact that babies look out for #1 is sufficient proof that they are not "just" before the LORD. If they were completely innocent, their instinct would be different. All of what you say is the result of the FALL of MAN in Adam the First.

The fact that little children are able to readily lie to get what they want, and avoid (for even a MOMENT) the things they don't want, is further proof these people are not "just" before God. That you admit this is natural, and that God says the natural man is NOT "Just" in His sight, is further proof yet that you are categorizing something that goes against your theology as part of an odd set of doctrines.

Originally Posted by Avid
You must give scripture if you expect ANYONE to accept this premise. It is clearly NOT a tenet of the holy scriptures that people are born into this world "just" before God. In fact, many scriptures show the exact opposite is true.
​

Originally Posted by skypair
Well, see here you, too, are asserting "condemned from birth." But except for poetic language of David talking about his flesh, you cannot prove this, either. Stick with what Ezek 18:20-21 says and you won't go wrong.

It does not make sense to "stick with" one passage of scripture when other scripture says plainly that your use of it is not applicable for what you are trying to NOT prove from scripture. Explaining that God regards those who turn from sin is NOT explaining your assertion that these people were not born in condemnation before God. Even the fact that God determined that Cornelius would be humbled before the religion of God's chosen people, recognize that there are honest people, they had a religion, it was under the direction of God that they live that way, that it did not include Gentiles like him, but it was good for him to help them, is consistent with God working in his heart to prepare him to receive the truth according to God's eternal plan, and predestination of His Elect.

I Peter 1
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
​

The doctrine of election is supported in the scriptures and it states that God predestined and chose certain people, from the foundation of the world, that they would be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

Ephesians 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
--- etc.---
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Romans 8
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

I Thessalonians 1
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

II Peter 1
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

​

This is EXACTLY what the scriptures say is the right thing for strangers to do as they are in the company of the Jews.

Leviticus 19
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
​

There is no scripture that states that humans are born "just" before God. The burden of proof for your assertion rests squarely upon you.

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
​

You are trying to avoid supporting your assertion from the scriptures. I have given scripture that states exactly what I believe, and it is now upon you to show this is NOT what the scriptures mean. It is not sufficient to simply ignore the word of God on the subject.

Originally Posted by Avid
They had this same attitude toward Job that you are describing, and God told them to seek Job to pray for them, and to do sacrifice on their behalf, because Job was accepted by God, and they were not.
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Originally Posted by skypair
Yeah .. once Job was saved (42:5-6) God told them that!

Where did the scripture say that Job (at some point) was not right in God's sight, and that he had fallen from the status God assigned to him in the opening exchange? The error of Job was simply to NOT recognize the cause of things happening on the Earth was for things beyond his own knowledge and understanding, and thus, he spoke from ignorance. If you assert that someone God says was perfect needed saving in such a manner as you are describing, you need to show exactly that from the scriptures. The worst thing Job did was speak from a place of ignorance. It is not that he indulged in any sin, but simply stated that he did not deserve what came upon him, and he appealed to God to show where he had done something worth of this, as stated by his "friends." The passages at the beginning of Job 1 & Job 2 show that to be TRUE.

Originally Posted by Avid
Satan himself said that Job was protected by God. This is part of what proves the point that God has certain people chosen from the foundation of the world.
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Originally Posted by skypair
Job was protected because he acknowledged God, glorified Him and thanked Him .. like Cornelius. None of that saves .. it merely leaves one just for now. If he should die (if you had died as a child), God would consider Job "just" because he was innocent. What you are saying is that God condemns Job and infants if they die in the state of innocence. What judge do you know that convicts the innocent, avid???

Job was not in a state of innocence as his sory is put forth in scripture. That is your assertion, and you have yet to show scripture to prove it. Also, you are lumping infants into a discussion about a grown man who was not a Jew. Also, you are lumping Job (a unique example) into a discussion about non-Jew in the days of Jesus' nativity. These are not acceptable in the first place, and the fact you have not shown scripture for your assertions makes them invalid regardless of their pertinence to the case of Cornelius, a Roman soldier who was born before the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that took away the guilt of Adam being upon every child that was born. (Romans 5:12-14, I John 2:2)

What I am saying is that you have no scripture to back your philosophy, your doctrine is incorrect, and that you are mischaracterizing what I say to fit some pigeonhole you have created. I do NOT assert what you say I do. I say that all people born before Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, and the presentation of that sacrifice to God in Heaven, (as was Cornelius) were born into condemnation because of the sin of Adam, as proven by Romans 5, and that God worked in the heart of Cornelius (we are not told how or exactly when) to prepare him to accept the foreign religion of sincere people who were under Roman occupation.

That he was born under condemnation does not mean that God could not help him, teach him, humble him, direct him and eventually save him. Your assertions are as unscriptural as what you say are erroneous assertions of Calvinists. They are not from the scriptures, and are not backed by scripture that says something that proves these other scriptures to be misinterpreted.




(continued in another post because of the limits on post size...)
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[Avid]

(continued from earlier...)

Originally Posted by Avid
God did honor the humble and obedient, though they were not "saved" according to the New Testament definition.
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Originally Posted by skypair
Right. They either were 1) innocent, 2) believed the "everlasting gospel" of God or 3) the "gospel of the kingdom" (OT "saved").

This is more along the lines of the Calvinist view you say you are against! This is not according to scripture. You have not given any scripture that says what you have asserted here. There is a salvation and a right living that was part of God's will and purpose BEFORE He fixed the problems of man not being acceptable in His presence. Those things were remedied for man in general, and the Elect in particular when the Blood of our LORD Jesus was presented to God in Heaven after Jesus' resurrection. You have yet to prove that God had not worked in Cornelius before the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and that he made these movements toward the religion of God's chosen people before then, either.

Originally Posted by skypair
I realize that Reformers have problems with earlier means of salvation. They understand that they are saved and by the same faith as we have. Know what they DON'T understand? That salvation, specifically justification, comes when we repent calling on the name of God. OT or NT .. that is our required reply to God's gospel.

Not sure what "Reformers" believe, and what part of what you say can be attributed to them. Maybe you can offer proof for your assertions here as well. I have long argued that God had a way for man to be included in Jesus' sacrifice, before it was done, by their obedience and their FAITH. What you are not proving at all is that God did not work to make them humble and obedient, and that their faith was of their own making, and their obedience was of their own doing.

Originally Posted by Avid
Not by anything presented here, because very little of it agrees with scripture. Some small aspects have some validity, but your comments are as far off as these Calvinists you try to accuse.
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Originally Posted by skypair
You appear to be saying that you are not familiar enough with mine or Calvinists belief to even be discussing it, avid. But I will reply to, I hope, clear up some issues on my side.

I am not asserting that I know anything about what you believe outside of what you state here on these pages, and it is EXACTLY THAT that to which I am responding. As far as Calvinists believing ANYTHING, one way or another, you have not proven what they believe. You have cited one fellow who calls himself a Calvinist, who I think is seeking the truth in sincerity, but may not be representative of "Calvinism," per se.

You can clear up MANY issues by providing scripture that supports what you believe, and discovers error in the use of the passages provided above.

Originally Posted by Avid
That were are born with a human nature, and are incapable of doing anything right in God's sight is clearly pointed out in Romans Chapter 8.
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Originally Posted by skypair
No one is born righteous in God's eyes .. that is true. That does not mean we are born guilty or condemned. Do you know what the problem is? We are born separated from God into this corrupt world of Satan's.

Your last sentence proves the error of your other one. We are born here, and we are born with a corrupt human nature that is incapable of pleasing God. If we were born "just"as you have asserted, we would each have (everyone of us) our own fall from innocence and being "just" before God.

Show scripture to support your claims. Absent that, these are unsupported opinions, and we can hear them in Church regularly, and on the bar stool as well. Everyone has an opinion about most things, and, according to scripture, they are mostly or completely in error, except as they are supported by God's holy word.

Originally Posted by Avid
This is true of every person born of Adam. It is when God changes them do they begin to do differently. This change may not be immediate,…
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Originally Posted by skypair
It IS immediate .. upon repentance calling on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation. You are either saved or you are not, avid.

Show the proof of this in scripture. Show how God does not speak to or work in the heart of a child who is rebellious till he reaches the time in his life when God turns him and causes him to repent. Show that God does nothing for these people to show them His truth before they are saved.

Someone told me of a friend that was mocking the elders of the Church when they were in their early teens. He mocked a particular man that taught how Elisha prayed, and an axehead swam in the water. Another of the youths there was struck by that truth, and EVENTUALLY turned from his rebellion, and was saved according to this person, his friend. God works in the hearts of people, maybe in EVERY moment of their lives to teach them His truth in their hearts.

As mentioned before, John Bunyan wrote of this taking 12 years from when God started dealing DIRECTLY with him, to when he submitted to God in sincerity, and had assurance of this work of God in his heart. He spoke of hearing God speak clearly to him as he was playing ball on Sunday, instead of going to Church services. This caused a feeling of guilt, but did not cause him to submit to God from the heart at that time.

One preacher I know, said that there were many years that God worked in his heart to cause him to know his guilt, before ever bringing him to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as LORD. In that time, this preacher was forced by his mother to attend Church, and was resistant. All the while he had no peace, and knew in his heart it was because he was not right before God.

It is upon you to prove FROM SCRIPTURE that God does not do this, and that these preachers were mistaken. Also, you must prove they were mistaken to think it was what they wanted from their own free will, and that God did not work AGAINST THEIR OWN WILL to make of them new creatures before Him by faith and the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

My resistance to discussing things with you (before or after this) is based solely in these facts. My response here has little to do with how it will affect you, or whether you ever do cite scripture that shows any truth in your opinions. Me discussing this with you is completely based in the fact that other people are reading this, and God's word is the foundation of truth, and that those who refuse that are not to be followed.

What is stated by scripture seems to be foreign to you, and the opinions held by you do not seem to have any basis in scripture or other foundation. Your opinion of a group of people who have firmly held beliefs seems to be based in the opinions of a few you have encountered.

I, too, have encountered people who profess to be Calvinist, but who say things that are not scriptural. Some are just not as complete as they should be, some make assertions that go beyond the scriptures to become an extension of scripture in their minds, and some make statements that are completely outside of the realm of scripture. The same is true for people with opposing points of view. Some of the most outrageous claims are made by people who resort to citing only only one verse of scripture for all they believe from the Bible!
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[98cwitr]

Oh, my! And always regenerate, eh? Like as by infant baptism? So you were never a lost sinner?

Try this: Cornelius was like those not mentioned in Ro 1:18-21 who DID acknowledge God while they were lost and DID glorify and thank Him. God heard his prayers .. accepted his righteous works .. and protected him until He would send him more "light." He, like Job, was a "just man" before God on account of not knowingly having trespassed against God, Ro 7:9. The "law" hadn't come to him yet.

Now there is one point of juncture of your life with Cornelius'. As a child, I am quite sure that you went to church and glorified and thanked God without knowing of any personal sin you had committed against Him. You, too, were "safe" with God, still innocent until He would reveal His righteousness to which you could not match up, Ro 1:18. He also, at some time later, probably showed you the gospel .. but you thought you were already saved so, unlike Cornelius, you didn't reply.

skypair

Nope...never said anything about regeneration, which is an action that takes place to the believer at a given point and [predestined] time. I am saying that to an Omniscient being that things that will be have always been. It's about vantage point, so Im clearly and simply making an observation.

 

[JM]

Oh, my! And always regenerate, eh? Like as by infant baptism? So you were never a lost sinner?

nope

Nope...never said anything about regeneration, which is an action that takes place to the believer at a given point and [predestined] time. I am saying that to an Omniscient being that things that will be have always been. It's about vantage point, so Im clearly and simply making an observation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JQKdj-dzIw&list=UUdDK-r9YRKXPPmwYNAz5xOA

 

[skypair]

I'm sorry folks but this thread is getting off track. The point of Cornelius is that before he was saved, he was 1) able to do things that even God said were good. 2) The he did not hate God. 3) That he was able to hear God and 4) freely choose to worship him. And we see in Acts 10:45-47 5) he did not receive the Holy Spirit, was not regenerated, until after he was saved.

So I understand that this knocks out a big chunk of Calvinist doctrine but please restrict your answers to these few. There IS free will.. there is no total depravity nor total inability to respond to God or do what it good in His eyes .. regeneration comes AFTER salvation .. Cornelius is an example of all of us as children if we grew up in Christian homes — "elect" but not saved. Lets talk about Cornelius case, OK?

skypair

 

[skypair]

nope

I get it, JM .. free grace — you were never not saved. Got it

skypair

 

[JM]

I'm sorry folks but this thread is getting off track. The point of Cornelius is that before he was saved, he was 1) able to do things that even God said were good. 2) The he did not hate God. 3) That he was able to hear God and 4) freely choose to worship him. And we see in Acts 10:45-47 5) he did not receive the Holy Spirit, was not regenerated, until after he was saved.

skypair,

The text tells us Cornelius "feared God." At some point you must recognize that fearing God is part of the new covenant of grace. In v.22 we see that he was already in the old covenant stream of thought, so much so, the Jews said " and one that feareth God." They would never say he believed in a false god than pile on accolades. Cornelius believed in the God of Israel. What makes you think he was outside of the covenant community of believers? It should be plain that he was well within the Jewish community, the Holy Spirit taught him to fear God and be devout to the old covenant of works. When Cornelius heard the Gospel, keeping in mind he already worship the true God of Israel, he was brought to the fullness of faith culminating in Christ Jesus.

Yours in the Lord,


jm