What Do Calvinists have to Say about Cornelius?

[98cwitr]

I have a feeling Cornelius had been gifted of the Spirit before Peter got there...see verse 30. Where in Acts 10 did Cornelius "get saved?"

 

[Avid]

I have a feeling Cornelius had been gifted of the Spirit before Peter got there...see verse 30. Where in Acts 10 did Cornelius "get saved?"

There is so much to this story that is not told. There was a significant event I believe happened a certain way, and the scriptures omit names so as not to confuse the matter. The Holy Spirit of God was upon this man to do what needed to be done, and it had a humbling effect. He had a good attitude toward God's people, toward the law of God and toward the religion of the Jews. The people who Cornelius knew of the Jews were sincere people, and not of the religious leaders who were as corrupt as they come!

These people commended the actions and attitudes of a Gentile to the Apostle. God clearly had worked mightily in the heart of this Gentile, and it is not reasonable to think this fellow came up with all that on his own. It was in the preparation of the man's heart that God had performed a miracle of a spiritual nature. It was the completion of God's will that the Apostle was called, and preached to Cornelius for the saving of his household.
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[skypair]

I have a feeling Cornelius had been gifted of the Spirit before Peter got there...see verse 30. Where in Acts 10 did Cornelius "get saved?"

Scripture doesn't say that. Do you always trust your feelings like that?

Here's what the Spirit can do before one is saved — He can enlighten with the truth .. the everlasting gospel or the gospel of the kingdom or the gospel of Jesus Christ. A person believing any of these gospels in this day and age will be given more light simply because he/she has acknowledged God and given Him glory and thanks. This is what Cornelius was doing when God sent him and angel, then a messenger of the gospel of Jesus Christ — Peter.

After one is saved, they receive the Holy Spirit indwelling them which IS regeneration. It is a "new creation," a new nature (God's nature), "all things are become new," etc.

skypair

 

[skypair]

God clearly had worked mightily in the heart of this Gentile, and it is not reasonable to think this fellow came up with all that on his own. It was in the preparation of the man's heart that God had performed a miracle of a spiritual nature. It was the completion of God's will that the Apostle was called, and preached to Cornelius for the saving of his household.
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Yes, God had worked through Cornelius' submissive, free will to draw him to God. And the "will" is the "heart" so you are correct that God was working on Cornelius heart .. through the administration of the "everlasting gospel" wherein, if a man acknowledge God, glorify, and thank Him, God will give that man more light. It was the same with Job in the OT.

Did Cornelius "come up with it on his own?" Of course not! Jn 1:9 tells us the God "lights every man who is born into this world!" Ro 1:18-20 tells us that God has revealed Himself to mankind so that they 1) know there is a Godhead and 2) that they are "without excuse" for not acknowledging Him.

But that is where Calvinism falls apart in saying that a man must be regenerated before he can know God — before he can do good — before he can believe the gospel — before he have a free will. Cornelius story is the bane of Calvinism which says that he could do none of the things that he actually did unless he was regenerate — no longer a "natural man."

skypair

 

[skypair]

Nope...never said anything about regeneration, which is an action that takes place to the believer at a given point and [predestined] time. I am saying that to an Omniscient being that things that will be have always been. It's about vantage point, so Im clearly and simply making an observation.

Well, in fact, you are presuming to make God's observation. Do you know that no one "has the mind of the Lord?" (1Cor 2:16)

What point in time do you believe a believer is regenerated? Is it or isn't it the same for all believers?

skypair

 

[98cwitr]

Well, in fact, you are presuming to make God's observation. Do you know that no one "has the mind of the Lord?" (1Cor 2:16)

What point in time do you believe a believer is regenerated? Is it or isn't it the same for all believers?

skypair

Sir, in post #18 you stated that Cornelius was not saved, which to me is also "to make God's observation" as you say. By what evidence can you state such a claim as fact? If you'd do me the respect of answering my questions, I will do the same, but please don't ignore mine.

 

[skypair]

Sir, in post #18 you stated that Cornelius was not saved, which to me is also "to make God's observation" as you say. By what evidence can you state such a claim as fact? If you'd do me the respect of answering my questions, I will do the same, but please don't ignore mine.

By Acts 11:14 — that Peter was sent to save him. Sorry if I didn't include that in my previous replies. So, no, I wasn't reading God's mind but His Bible.

You know, it would be good to read all of Acts 10-11 to get the scenario firmly in mind.

skypair

 

[98cwitr]

By Acts 11:14 — that Peter was sent to save him. Sorry if I didn't include that in my previous replies. So, no, I wasn't reading God's mind but His Bible.

You know, it would be good to read all of Acts 10-11 to get the scenario firmly in mind.

skypair

Ah I do see your point, and from a human perspective, you're very right that Cornelius and his family was "saved" then. Yet, you must not ignore election doctrine, that before the foundation of the world, Cornelius was predestined unto salvation: Romans 8 + Ephesians 1.

You also asked:

What point in time do you believe a believer is regenerated?

When they receive the Holy Spirit: John 3.


Is it or isn't it the same for all believers?

Pentecost would suggest it's the same process, although timing would be different. See Acts 1-2.

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

 

[skypair]

Yet, you must not ignore election doctrine, that before the foundation of the world, Cornelius was predestined unto salvation: Romans 8 + Ephesians 1.

That's God's pov, 98. AND the scripture says that, before He predestined, He FOREKNEW — that they would believe on Christ. So no, the doctrine of election would be regarding the people through whom God would share His gospel and His truth .. the Jews at the end of the OT, the church in this era. And, in fact, one book I refer to says that "foreknowledge and predestination are not to be confused with one another." By foreknowledge, God foreknows who will believe .. by predestination, He destines whom He foreknew who believe to glory.

You also asked:

What point in time do you believe a believer is regenerated?

When they receive the Holy Spirit: John 3.

Yes, and that would be upon repentance and baptism of the Spirit, Acts 2:38. That IS the new life — the revived soul/conscience — the new birth.

Is it or isn't it the same for all believers?

Pentecost would suggest it's the same process, although timing would be different. See Acts 1-2.

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

And salvation comes upon "belief" and "calling on the name of the Lord," correct? It's what I call the 2nd golden chain of redemption.

Well, just to hope that we agree with each other and those scriptures, it happens once God has justified the ungodly — as soon as we repent, dying to self and accepting new life in Christ Jesus — that is when we when we are regenerated.

Agreed?

skypair

 

[98cwitr]

Doesnt God foreknow all things? And does God create all? Both those facts have to be a factor.

Ezekiel 36 holds a mighty fine promise doesn't it

Even the devil believes...faith is inclusive of action and a change of heart...seems Cornelius already had faith...and as Scripture tells us, faith is from God: Eph. 2 & 4

"Well, just to hope that we agree with each other and those scriptures, it happens once God has justified the ungodly — as soon as we repent, dying to self and accepting new life in Christ Jesus — that is when we when we are regenerated."

Agreed. But you would say that repentance, dying to self, and accepting all are part of man's will to choose or not choose...and I would say that unless a man's heart is changed [by God specifically], he is unable to do any of those things. Those living in the realm of the flesh cannot please God, nor does God listen to sinners. Lastly, and to emphasis a finality imo, it does not depend on man's desire nor effort, but on God's mercy alone.

 

[Metal Minister]

This is a fairly challenging thread for Calvinists, isn't it? You know, the beauty of it is that we were all once "Cornrlius's" when we were children.

You know, I was going to leave this alone until I saw this remark. No, we were not born "Cornelius'". We were all born fallen. Our human nature, detests God and embraces sin. It is only by God's will and grace that we change so that we will seek Him. John 8:34

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
(Since we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, then we are ALL slaves to sin.)


Romans 6:20

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.(IOW until God released us from our sins, we could not be righteous. That's not nuetral, that's not seeking Him, that's corrupted and sinful from day 1)

 

[skypair]

You know, I was going to leave this alone until I saw this remark. No, we were not born "Cornelius'".

Really??! We are not like Cornelius from birth? What did Cornelius have that we didn't? What made him able to have his prayers and good works be acceptable to God?

This is really worth pursuing, MM. If you cannot see that you were born the same as Cornelius and every other man that has been born into this world, then you have an extra-biblical understanding of scripture.

We were all born fallen. Our human nature, detests God and embraces sin.

Friend, first off you were not born that way. Second of all, if you hated God and embraced sin, then it is your fault, not God's. You did so because you wanted to and not because God didn't save you from doing so by regenerating you.

John 8:34
Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

What that means is that everyone who commits sin has developed a "sin nature" that separates them from God unto sin. Yes, you are bound by sin UNTIL you hear/"know the truth and the truth shall set you free." AND when you repent trusting Christ with your life, you receive "God's nature" — the Holy Spirit!

Wrap your head around the real gospel, MM. Cornelius believed the "everlasting gospel" expressed to us in Ro 1:18-21 — and he had not knowingly sinned or trespassed against God. For that reason, as with Job, God sent Cornelius a "messenger" to teach him the gospel of Jesus Christ and give him salvation by obeying it — Repent calling on the name of the Lord.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Doesnt God foreknow all things? And does God create all? Both those facts have to be a factor.

Sure .. the Father is omniscient .. but Christ is not. He is omnipotent and He is Creator/Mediator. So God makes the plan not revealing to the Son how His execution of the plan is going to impact each individual. For instance, very early on it "repented God that He had created man." (Gen 6:6) The Son did not foreknow this would happen but the Father did.

Ezekiel 36 holds a mighty fine promise doesn't it

Umm, that promise was to OT SAINTS in the resurrection into Christ's kingdom. While it parallels the the new covenant experience, it is for BELIEVERS ONLY — not for those who have not already turned to God in repentance.

Even the devil believes...faith is inclusive of action and a change of heart...seems Cornelius already had faith...and as Scripture tells us, faith is from God: Eph. 2 & 4

Yes, faith is from God — which He GIVES us when we turn to Him repenting of sin and committing to do His will in our lives. He quite obviously wouldn't give the Spirit to someone who has not abandoned his own life to obey God.

Agreed. But you would say that repentance, dying to self, and accepting all are part of man's will to choose or not choose…

Yup! Do you not know that God gave us, from birth, the desire for eternal life? It is a survival instinct planted in our soul to draw us to God, Ecc 3:11. So, yeah, out of self interest, we do accept God .. His promises .. His conditions.

and I would say that unless a man's heart is changed [by God specifically], he is unable to do any of those things.

You're kind of in a "Catch 22" with God, then. You see, you can't be regenerated until you repent (Acts 2:38) and you can't repent until you are regenerated (according to Calvin). So consider where that puts you, 98. Can Calvinism regenerate you?

Those living in the realm of the flesh cannot please God, nor does God listen to sinners.

So you would deny the everlasting gospel? Or you just don't know about it. Which is it? because God did hear Cornelius prayers and accepted his good works BEFORE he was saved.

Lastly, and to emphasis a finality imo, it does not depend on man's desire nor effort, but on God's mercy alone.

Great .. and you didn't even have to ask for it, did you? You couldn't, could you? You were, apparently, saved "by fate alone," eh?

skypair

 

[98cwitr]

Your unorthodox thinking of Christ the Creator alone and not the Father doesn't really line up:

Deuteronomy 32:6 Is this the way you repay the Lord, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?

Luke 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Men dont repent without faith...why would they?

 

[skypair]

Your unorthodox thinking of Christ the Creator alone and not the Father doesn't really line up:

Deuteronomy 32:6 Is this the way you repay the Lord, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?

Umm .. sounds good, doesn't it. Would you say that the Creator was LIKE a Father to you? That, yes, it was by His will that you were formed. And does not Jn 1 tell us that "everything was created by Him…?"

Yes, it is a little unorthodox understanding of the doctrine of the trinity. But it is one suggested by scripture in that they are 3 Persons in 1 God.

Luke 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Men dont repent without faith...why would they?

Because they can't have faith until they repent. Acts 2:38 says repent and be regenerated. It is only by our regeneration — the witness of the Spirit with our spirit — that we an have faith in our salvation. Otherwise what we have is hope — but "faith is the evidence of things hoped for…" Heb 11:1

Why we repent is so that we may be reconciled to God. Repentance is turning from our own sin nature and asking for His .. turning our sin guilt over to Christ .. establishing a saving relationship with the Father. That's not the same as repenting of our sins day in and day out, is it. Of course, that part is a continuing process but that is NOT repentance for which we receive eternal life.

skypair

 

[Metal Minister]

Really??! We are not like Cornelius from birth? What did Cornelius have that we didn't? What made him able to have his prayers and good works be acceptable to God?

This is really worth pursuing, MM. If you cannot see that you were born the same as Cornelius and every other man that has been born into this world, then you have an extra-biblical understanding of scripture.

Friend, first off you were not born that way. Second of all, if you hated God and embraced sin, then it is your fault, not God's. You did so because you wanted to and not because God didn't save you from doing so by regenerating you.

What that means is that everyone who commits sin has developed a "sin nature" that separates them from God unto sin. Yes, you are bound by sin UNTIL you hear/"know the truth and the truth shall set you free." AND when you repent trusting Christ with your life, you receive "God's nature" — the Holy Spirit!

Wrap your head around the real gospel, MM. Cornelius believed the "everlasting gospel" expressed to us in Ro 1:18-21 — and he had not knowingly sinned or trespassed against God. For that reason, as with Job, God sent Cornelius a "messenger" to teach him the gospel of Jesus Christ and give him salvation by obeying it — Repent calling on the name of the Lord.

skypair

I do have my head wrapped around the whole gospel, and all the scripture that contains it's message. Do you not remember Psalm 51:5-6?

"Surely I was sinful at birth,
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]you taught me wisdom[bless and do not curse]in that secret place."

What does that say? It says we are born sinful. By your understanding, it would be possible for a person to go through life sinless. If we were born neutral, which I have just proved is incorrect. Otherwise, if it were possible to live a sinless life, why did we need Jesus? If even 1 other person in history was able to live sinless, then it negates all of what Christ did on the cross.

What did Cornelius have? God's grace and His will that he be saved. You see I WAS born like every other person in history. Sinful and fallen, and hating the Lord. It was by God's will alone that my heart was changed.

Now, when was the last time you read Job? God sends no messenger, He allows Satan to destroy all the blessings God had given him, to prove Job's faithfulness. No messenger arrives, only the Lord who rebukes Job for speaking out of turn toward Him. It was after this that God restored Job.

 

[98cwitr]

Umm .. sounds good, doesn't it. Would you say that the Creator was LIKE a Father to you? That, yes, it was by His will that you were formed. And does not Jn 1 tell us that "everything was created by Him…?"

Yes, it is a little unorthodox understanding of the doctrine of the trinity. But it is one suggested by scripture in that they are 3 Persons in 1 God.


Because they can't have faith until they repent. Acts 2:38 says repent and be regenerated. It is only by our regeneration — the witness of the Spirit with our spirit — that we an have faith in our salvation. Otherwise what we have is hope — but "faith is the evidence of things hoped for…" Heb 11:1

Why we repent is so that we may be reconciled to God. Repentance is turning from our own sin nature and asking for His .. turning our sin guilt over to Christ .. establishing a saving relationship with the Father. That's not the same as repenting of our sins day in and day out, is it. Of course, that part is a continuing process but that is NOT repentance for which we receive eternal life.

skypair

How does one without faith have Godly sorrow [as opposed to worldly]?

2 Corinthians 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Where does the desire to turn from sin come from?

It doesn't say LIKE a Father...it says Father.

 

[skypair]

How does one without faith have Godly sorrow [as opposed to worldly]?

2 Corinthians 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Where does the desire to turn from sin come from?

Good! "repentance not to be repented of" as another verse in that passage says. What brings such repentance? Conviction of the Holy Spirit, right (Jn 16:8-10)? The desire comes from conviction coupled with the innate desire, instinct if you will, for life and eternal life specifically. Did you understand that desire with you? You certainly didn't want the wrath of God upon you, did you (Ro 1:18)?

This is not hard stuff if you understand the biblical doctrine of the nature of man. But it becomes hard when a human agenda is being presented that doesn't match the biblical one.

It doesn't say LIKE a Father...it says Father.

Yes, I realize that. I also know that they did not know about the Son in the OT and that there was to be one born among them that would be a Son.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Do you not remember Psalm 51:5-6?

I absolutely do — David's poetic language for being born in a corruptible body of flesh.

Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]you taught me wisdom[bless and do not curse]in that secret place."

Haven't seen that one. Perhaps he's talking about expecting to save everyone who is born — which God hopes for since He is "not willing that any should perish…"

What does that say? It says we are born sinful. By your understanding, it would be possible for a person to go through life sinless.

Yes, if one died as an infant. Do you believe Paul in Ro 7:9 — that he was alive spiritually before he knew the law? That is an account of his innocence until he knew he had trespassed against God. Do you believe in an age of accountability? If so, you believe the same as I regarding infants and their innocence.

Otherwise, if it were possible to live a sinless life, why did we need Jesus?

Because innocence is not equal to the righteousness of God. In order to have eternal life, we need to have Christ's righteousness. If an infant dies, he will join the "just" of the OT — be resurrected in the "resurrection of the just" into Christ's kingdom — and will get to choose to trust Christ with their lives at that time .. or not.

If even 1 other person in history was able to live sinless, then it negates all of what Christ did on the cross.

They would still not have the righteousness of God. Do you understand that? What is the righteousness of God? It is God in you — the Holy Spirit.

What did Cornelius have? God's grace and His will that he be saved. You see I WAS born like every other person in history. Sinful and fallen, and hating the Lord. It was by God's will alone that my heart was changed.

So you're saying that Cornelius was saved before he was saved in Acts 10:45-47? And you likewise? When can you show that Cornelius, like you, was sinful, fallen, and hated God? I'm sure you can't because he wasn't and didn't. Can you not accept the notion of the everlasting gospel? of innocence until you know the Godhead and then the law?

I mean, what you are trying to prove with scripture is something that cannot be proven by even your own experience. You hated God? you deliberately sinned against God as an infant? that you felt a guilt on your conscience for your father's sins? for Adam's sins??

Now, when was the last time you read Job? God sends no messenger,…

More recently and more carefully than you have, apparently. Read Job 33:22-31 and please revise your thinking if not your answer. "Lo, all these things God does oftentimes with men."

He allows Satan to destroy all the blessings God had given him, to prove Job's faithfulness. No messenger arrives, only the Lord who rebukes Job for speaking out of turn toward Him. It was after this that God restored Job.

This is simply what your doctrine would cause you to believe. Read it for yourself, MM. Read Job 42:5-6 where Job actually did what the messenger said and THEN, like Cornelius by his messenger Peter, got saved and a "new life." (42:10)

Salvation is conditional, MM. Keep your mind open to that thought because that's how covenants are made between individuals. Even the seeming unconditional "Abrahamic covenant" was predicated on Abraham having already been saved by faith way back in Ur.

skypair

 

[Metal Minister]

Skypair, before I respond further, I have to ask. Are you an open theist?