What Do Calvinists have to Say about Cornelius?

[skypair]

Skypair, before I respond further, I have to ask. Are you an open theist?

Me personally? If you mean by that that I have to learn things, yes. That is what Jesus had to do, too. But I do not believe that the Father is an open theist.

This goes to the issue of the trinity as opposed to a unitary God, right? They are 3 for the purposes of redemption of man. The Father justifies .. the Sons sanctifies .. and the Spirit glorifies. They serve separate roles in redemption. Do you see that?

They also have different attributes according to their roles. The Father is omniscient .. the Son is omnipotent .. the Spirit is omnipresent even to the point where He minsters the "everlasting gospel" from nature, Ro 1:18.

Finally, the Father created the plan .. the Son is executing the plan (He does what He is told to do, a Servant of God where the future us open) .. and the Spirit is revealing the plan of the Father to men.

In this plan, you might also understand that there is a "kingdom of God" the Father in 3rd heaven .. there is a "kingdom of heaven" of the Son on the earth ruled from heaven by Christ that spans the time period from Adam to the 2nd coming of the King to earth.

You know, theologians have been arguing foreknowledge vs predestination vs open theology for quite a long time without understanding the truth of the matter — that the Father knows/foreknows all and predestines. Then, in Ro 8:30, it is the Son who calls and is the agency through which we are justified and glorified. It is rather entertaining to watch them try to support the one to the exclusion of the other when both are true in different ways and Persons!

skypair

 

[Hammster]

Me personally? If you mean by that that I have to learn things, yes. That is what Jesus had to do, too. But I do not believe that the Father is an open theist.

This goes to the issue of the trinity as opposed to a unitary God, right? They are 3 for the purposes of redemption of man. The Father justifies .. the Sons sanctifies .. and the Spirit glorifies. They serve separate roles in redemption. Do you see that?

They also have different attributes according to their roles. The Father is omniscient .. the Son is omnipotent .. the Spirit is omnipresent even to the point where He minsters the "everlasting gospel" from nature, Ro 1:18.

Finally, the Father created the plan .. the Son is executing the plan (He does what He is told to do, a Servant of God where the future us open) .. and the Spirit is revealing the plan of the Father to men.

In this plan, you might also understand that there is a "kingdom of God" the Father in 3rd heaven .. there is a "kingdom of heaven" of the Son on the earth ruled from heaven by Christ that spans the time period from Adam to the 2nd coming of the King to earth.

You know, theologians have been arguing foreknowledge vs predestination vs open theology for quite a long time without understanding the truth of the matter — that the Father knows/foreknows all and predestines. Then, in Ro 8:30, it is the Son who calls and is the agency through which we are justified and glorified. It is rather entertaining to watch them try to support the one to the exclusion of the other when both are true in different ways and Persons!

skypair

So the Spirit isn't omniscient, and the Son isn't omnipresent?

 

[98cwitr]

I've realized this morning that none of this "who created what" even matters. The Father has set forth a plan for all of creation, and it doesn't matter who did the creating, His Will will be done. I will end on this solemn fact.

 

[skypair]

So the Spirit isn't omniscient, and the Son isn't omnipresent?

Is that not obvious to you from scripture? Where is the Son right now? "Seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven," right? Where is the Father? Next to Jesus, right? Neither one is omnipresent. But the Spirit — the wisdom of God — is seen everywhere we look, isn't it?

The "wisdom of God" (AKA: Spirit, Word) was even manifest in us — in our instinct to life and to eternal life. As some like to say, "God created us with a hole inside that only He can fill!" Far from hating God, we want that hole filled by Him! Interestingly, the Word/Spirit was made flesh in Christ (Jn 1) AND He is made flesh in us as the Comforter! By wisdom, God created everything from nothing and by wisdom He is populating His future kingdom, the New Earth!

There's more but I'll let you digest that, OK?

skypair

 

[skypair]

I've realized this morning that none of this "who created what" even matters. The Father has set forth a plan for all of creation, and it doesn't matter who did the creating, His Will will be done. I will end on this solemn fact.

Sure .. kinda overwhelming, isn't it.

skypair

 

[98cwitr]

Sure .. kinda overwhelming, isn't it.

skypair

I'd say it's quite the opposite...maybe even comforting.

 

[skypair]

I'd say it's quite the opposite...maybe even comforting.

Ah, yes .. blissful ignorance! I didn't think about that one. Good on ya!

skypair

 

[Hammster]

Is that not obvious to you from scripture? Where is the Son right now? "Seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven," right? Where is the Father? Next to Jesus, right? Neither one is omnipresent. But the Spirit — the wisdom of God — is seen everywhere we look, isn't it?

The "wisdom of God" (AKA: Spirit, Word) was even manifest in us — in our instinct to life and to eternal life. As some like to say, "God created us with a hole inside that only He can fill!" Far from hating God, we want that hole filled by Him! Interestingly, the Word/Spirit was made flesh in Christ (Jn 1) AND He is made flesh in us as the Comforter! By wisdom, God created everything from nothing and by wisdom He is populating His future kingdom, the New Earth!

There's more but I'll let you digest that, OK?

skypair

That's unorthodox and can only be discussed in Unorthodox Debate and Discussion.

 

[skypair]

That's unorthodox and can only be discussed in Unorthodox Debate and Discussion.

Hmmm.. I was unaware of that. What makes the doctrine of the trinity unorthodox? Or what makes what I said unorthodox? And whose orthodoxy are we going by to determine this?

Can you cite something unorthodox about the Father justifying, Christ sanctifying, and the Spirit glorifying the believer? Is Christ not the Creator? Do you believe the Son is omniscient even when He makes statements like "no one knows the day or the hour but the Father only?" Wouldn't that disqualify Him from being omniscient?

I'm finding it hard to understand what parts of my orthodoxy you are having difficulty engaging with.

skypair

 

[Hammster]

Hmmm.. I was unaware of that. What makes the doctrine of the trinity unorthodox? Or what makes what I said unorthodox? And whose orthodoxy are we going by to determine this?

Can you cite something unorthodox about the Father justifying, Christ sanctifying, and the Spirit glorifying the believer? Is Christ not the Creator? Do you believe the Son is omniscient even when He makes statements like "no one knows the day or the hour but the Father only?" Wouldn't that disqualify Him from being omniscient?

I'm finding it hard to understand what parts of my orthodoxy you are having difficulty engaging with.

skypair

You can start a thread in the Member Services Center.

 

[Avid]

Sure .. kinda overwhelming, isn't it...

I'd say it's quite the opposite...maybe even comforting.

Ah, yes .. blissful ignorance! I didn't think about that one. Good on ya!

This subject is not necessarily overwhelming to a person who accepts the basis of the Calvinist view on salvation. However, it seems to be overwhelming to anyone who would not be able to support their opinions with scripture.

The scriptures are our source of God's testimony concerning His law and grace. We should have beliefs and doctrines based on what God tells us, and not our own thoughts.
.

 

[DeaconDean]

Cornelius was not saved until he heard the gospel from Peter and believed on Jesus, but he was able to do good works that God recognized as works of "righteousness" for years before he was saved.

I think that its funny that in spite of what Isa 64:6 says, works done before salvation are counted as righteousness.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[skypair]

I think that its funny that in spite of what Isa 64:6 says, works done before salvation are counted as righteousness.

This is a good point to understand, Deacon: While we are in the state of Cornelius and Job or as children who acknowledge God, glorify Him (with prayers, worship, etc.) and thank Him (grace over our food), we CAN do works of righteousness.

It is only when we have knowingly sinned against Him or others (basically, 10 commandments) can we NOT do works of righteousness until we are saved.

skypair

 

[Sovereign Grace]

He that doeth the truth, cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:21

 

[Metal Minister]

This is a good point to understand, Deacon: While we are in the state of Cornelius and Job or as children who acknowledge God, glorify Him (with prayers, worship, etc.) and thank Him (grace over our food), we CAN do works of righteousness.

It is only when we have knowingly sinned against Him or others (basically, 10 commandments) can we NOT do works of righteousness until we are saved.

skypair

And how can you say this when Romans 3:10-12 says As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good, not even one.”

 

[skypair]

And how can you say this when Romans 3:10-12 says As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good, not even one.”

That is totally true .. biblical! That is from Psa 14:1-3 where David compares fools to the people before the flood. Remember that, Gen 6:5?

It is further true that no one has the righteousness of God — unless they are saved. What did God "find" when He found Noah? Eight people who were "pure in their generations."

It is good to realize with what stuff we are made but it is also good to realize that by acknowledging God, glorifying Him, and thanking Him ( = believing the everlasting gospel), we can do righteous acts and even choose salvation.

skypair

 

[Metal Minister]

That is totally true .. biblical! That is from Psa 14:1-3 where David compares fools to the people before the flood. Remember that, Gen 6:5?

It is further true that no one has the righteousness of God — unless they are saved. What did God "find" when He found Noah? Eight people who were "pure in their generations."

It is good to realize with what stuff we are made but it is also good to realize that by acknowledging God, glorifying Him, and thanking Him ( = believing the everlasting gospel), we can do righteous acts and even choose salvation.

skypair

You completely ignored the text and added your feelings to it instead. That's not exegesis. No one=no one, not "no one except a few over here."

 

[Avid]

That is totally true .. biblical! That is from Psa 14:1-3 where David compares fools to the people before the flood. Remember that, Gen 6:5?

No mention of times before the flood in Psalm 14. He is speaking specifically of the people of the Earth, and comparing them with His people, Israel.

In Psalm 14:1-3, God said:

Psalm 14
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.​

In Genesis 6:5, God said:

Genesis 6
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.​

There is the distinction of none understanding, seeking God, or doing good, and the statement of every imagination of their hearts being only evil continuously! Since you have equated these, it is upon you to prove your point in a way that does not contradict the scriptures.

What did God "find" when He found Noah? Eight people who were "pure in their generations."

No, that is not what the scriptures say.

Genesis 6
8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.​

It was NOAH that God said that about. God spared his family because of Him.

It is good to realize with what stuff we are made but it is also good to realize that by acknowledging God, glorifying Him, and thanking Him ( = believing the everlasting gospel), we can do righteous acts and even choose salvation.

Show scripture that equates those, and states what you claim the Bible says here! The Bible is clear that there is one specific thing that distinguished people of Old Testament times that believed God, and were later included in Jesus' sacrifice and salvation.
.

 

[Avid]

... That is from Psa 14:1-3 ...

The very passage that you reference shows there are NONE that do good, NO, NOT ONE...

The passage you cite blows a hole in your theology. There are not any people born on this Earth that do good in God's sight. God works in their hearts to bring them to Jesus, drawing them by His Holy Spirit, and making them into a new creation.

There are other things that are inconsistent in what you say you believe. They have been pointed out at length in earlier posts, and may be shown again, as the LORD leads.
.

 

[skypair]

You completely ignored the text and added your feelings to it instead. That's not exegesis. No one=no one, not "no one except a few over here."

Can we say that God saw that no one in the preflood world was seeking God? no one did righteousness? Isn't that what Gen 6:5 says?

But apparently the Father knew better because Noah had found favor in God's eyes, right? Well, that would be the same today, would it not. To say "no one" does these things is to say that not even the believers do so!

You have to discover the contexts of Paul's recitation of scripture, MM, before you start jumping to conclusions.

skypair