What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

[DeaconDean]

Well I am an Independent baptist and my church thinks its heretical to speak in tongues. They say that speaking in tongues began and ended with the Apostles and that God does not give people that ability in our modern age.

Also my family thinks that Benny Hinn is a heretic too, because he thinks he can heal people and our church doesn't think that God gives people healing powers in our modern age. So they claim he is a fraud and my mom is really skeptical about him. I am not allowed to watch him. They believe that healing and speaking in tongues began and ended with the Apostles.

How do you account for:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:" -Acts 2:17 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Pentecost is more "Spirit Upon" than "Spirit Within."

See I disagree.

Pentecost was the announcement that the Holy Spirit had come and was now not only active, but a resident until the end times.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

Well I am an Independent baptist and my church thinks its heretical to speak in tongues. They say that speaking in tongues began and ended with the Apostles and that God does not give people that ability in our modern age.

Also my family thinks that Benny Hinn is a heretic too, because he thinks he can heal people and our church doesn't think that God gives people healing powers in our modern age. So they claim he is a fraud and my mom is really skeptical about him. I am not allowed to watch him. They believe that healing and speaking in tongues began and ended with the Apostles.

Jacqueline,

Speaking of Benny Hinn. One faulty Chevvy doesn't make every Chevvy a loser.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I don't take tongues seriously, nor do I take the people teaching it seriously

I could give you many reasons and enter into a debate, but in my mind, that is a complete waste of time

Your response here is an Appeal to Ridicule Logical Fallacy.

 

[now faith]

Greg,

I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease ‘when perfection comes’ (v. 10) and that perfection is the completion of the canon of OT and NT Scripture.

In context, it makes better sense to see the gifts as ceasing when we are ‘face to face’ with God himself (v. 12).

I find that perfection = completion of Scripture to be an imposition on the text. It's a standard view of cessationists, but is not what I find in the text.

Therefore, the gift of tongues will continue as long as the gift of teachers, helps and administration continues - as well as apostles, prophets, etc (1 Cor 12:28-32), and that will be until Jesus returns.

Oz

Finally a logical reply to a passage that has nothing to do with the completed canon.
Face to face is clearly Christ,how this gets turned around is a conditional expectation of interpretation without ones own study of the Word.
I have listened to this for years and you cannot find any context of the Bible causing the gifts to cease.
1 Corinthians: 14. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40. Let all things be done decently and in order. -

 

[DeaconDean]

Finally a logical reply to a passage that has nothing to do with the completed canon.
Face to face is clearly Christ,how this gets turned around is a conditional expectation of interpretation without ones own study of the Word.
I have listened to this for years and you cannot find any context of the Bible causing the gifts to cease.
1 Corinthians: 14. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40. Let all things be done decently and in order. -

I have to agree with you.

I used to be one who believed speaking in tongues had ceased.

But there is no evidence to it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Finally a logical reply to a passage that has nothing to do with the completed canon.

You know, it's really funny that that argument always come up.

It is sad that people would say that the gift of speaking in tongues has ceased because we have the bible.

A little research shows that:

"Coram Deo
While the church has had some disputes over exactly which books belonged in the Canon, it always agreed that the Canon was closed with the death of the last apostle. While no Christian today seeks to add to the Canon, there are those within the visible church who claim to have new, direct, binding words from God."

Source

Who wrote The Revelation of Jesus Christ is up for debate.

It could have been the Apostle John.

It could have been "John the Revelator".

It could have been "John of Patmos".

It could be John the Revelator and John of Patmos are one in the same.

We don't know for sure, but we assume that when whoever wrote The Revelation of Jesus Christ died, the "canon" closed.

It would be the safest guess to say that it was the Apostle John who wrote it. The age would be very close to John's age at the time.

The book gives evidence that it was written sometime between AD 81-96.

"According to the oldest tradition [in Iren., Adv. Haer. 5.30.3] Rev was written toward the end of the reign of Domitian (81-96). The book's own testimony indicates that it originated in the province of Asia in a time of severe oppression of Christians, which is most readily conceivable under Domitian."

Apocalypse of John (Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 466-8), by Werner Georg Kummel, 1996

Which would mean, that the "canon" closed shortly after the 1st century.

Why would Paul tell the Corinthians "until that which is perfect has come, at the end of the 1st century?

It makes no sense that that gift would only last a mere 50 years or so.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

Corinthians was written to problematic church by crafty Paul to silence the mockers, not to you and me for universalizing!

Right,

If that is the case that 1 Corinthians cannot be universalised and applied to all churches throughout the New Covenant era, then that book should not be in the canon of Scripture.

I know 1 Cor can be universalised because the Bible tells us so: 'All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work' (1 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, you say "I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease ‘when perfection comes’ (v. 10)"
"But when that which is perfect ("complete" as in the written scriptures) than that which is in part (gifts like speaking in tongues) shall be done away. V. 9 says "...whether there be tongues, they shall cease:..."

Greg,

Why have you betrayed what I wrote with your statement: 'Oz, you say "I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease ‘when perfection comes’ (v. 10)"?

THAT IS NOT WHAT I WROTE.

Instead, this is what I wrote (and you quoted it): 'I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease ‘when perfection comes’ (v. 10) and that perfection is the completion of the canon of OT and NT Scripture'.

Is this what you do with quoting other people on this forum or with quoting the Scripture? Do you choose to quote only half of a sentence and make it mean what I actually stated?

I find that to be deceitful.

Oz

 

[Greg Merrill]

Greg,

Why have you betrayed what I wrote with your statement: 'Oz, you say "I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease ‘when perfection comes’ (v. 10)"?

THAT IS NOT WHAT I WROTE.

Instead, this is what I wrote (and you quoted it): 'I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease ‘when perfection comes’ (v. 10) and that perfection is the completion of the canon of OT and NT Scripture'.

Is this what you do with quoting other people on this forum or with quoting the Scripture? Do you choose to quote only half of a sentence and make it mean what I actually stated?

I find that to be deceitful.

Oz

If I misquoted you, I apologize. I no longer see where I first read your quote, but if I left off "that perfection is the completion of the canon of OT and NT Scripture'." then I am sorry. You seem to agree with me, though I say "perfection" is the completion of just the NT. The OT was already completed. You said "Do you choose to quote only half of a sentence and make it mean what I actually stated? Did you mean to say "Do you choose to quote only half of a sentence and make it mean what I DIDN'T actually (STATE) stated?

 

[now faith]

Through the years,it has been the debate over tongues that seems to cause much discord.
The other gifts Paul mentions in Corinthians are discarded by association.
Tongues have been misused so much ,that Paul's teaching is not considered in many Pennacostal Churches.
My Dad detested tongues, due to a experience he had at a Church service.
This experience was carnal and in direct contradiction to Paul's teaching.
For myself I do my best to keep with in the context of God's Word,so I cannot denounce the gifts by way of private interpretation.
At one point I sat down with a IDFB Pastor who told me the that which is perfect view.
The first thing I thought of was the face to face meeting.
I know that which is perfect will come and meet us face to face,and that can only be Jesus Christ.

 

[now faith]

Right,

If that is the case that 1 Corinthians cannot be universalised and applied to all churches throughout the New Covenant era, then that book should not be in the canon of Scripture.

I know 1 Cor can be universalised because the Bible tells us so: 'All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work' (1 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).

Oz

Happy birthday!

 

[DeaconDean]

Through the years,it has been the debate over tongues that seems to cause much discord.
The other gifts Paul mentions in Corinthians are discarded by association.
Tongues have been misused so much ,that Paul's teaching is not considered in many Pennacostal Churches.
My Dad detested tongues, due to a experience he had at a Church service.
This experience was carnal and in direct contradiction to Paul's teaching.
For myself I do my best to keep with in the context of God's Word,so I cannot denounce the gifts by way of private interpretation.
At one point I sat down with a IDFB Pastor who told me the that which is perfect view.
The first thing I thought of was the face to face meeting.
I know that which is perfect will come and meet us face to face,and that can only be Jesus Christ.

Like I said, I used to believe in the cessation of that gift until discussion one night in seminary.

I no longer believe that way.

I do agree with your fathers viewpoint though.

In years past, I visited many Church of God churches. Not being exposed to this sort of thing was a frightening experience.

Looking back, however I see the "abuse" of this.

Looking at the day of Pentecost, why did those in the upper room speak in tongues? It was the dramatic announcement of the arrival of the Holy Spirit to not only continue Christ's work, to start His work here in this world.

A lot can be said but let me just say this, Paul give a list of "gifts" and he give a list of "rules" to go along with them.

To me, and its just my own observation that after Pentecost, the Holy Spirit did not pour Himself out on an entire congregation again. Paul never mentioned that in any of his epistles. Likewise, neither did John, James, or Peter.

I have, however, watched the Spirit come upon some people. I wished one night during a singing that I had the Spirit come on me like this one certain young man did.

I am very weary when I walk into a church and the entire congregation is "in the Spirit" and "speaking in tongues". (Seen that many times)

I am very weary when the Pastor of the congregation tells their members "Lets pray "in the Spirit". (Meaning obviously to pray in tongues)

Like I said, I used to believe it ceased, but not anymore.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

If I misquoted you, I apologize. I no longer see where I first read your quote, but if I left off "that perfection is the completion of the canon of OT and NT Scripture'." then I am sorry. You seem to agree with me, though I say "perfection" is the completion of just the NT. The OT was already completed. You said "Do you choose to quote only half of a sentence and make it mean what I actually stated? Did you mean to say "Do you choose to quote only half of a sentence and make it mean what I DIDN'T actually (STATE) stated?

Greg,

Please go back to #432 and you will see my statement and how you misquoted me. I accept your apology.

My question is exactly as I asked: 'Do you choose to quote only half of a sentence and make it mean what I actually stated?' That's what you did. You quoted only half of my sentence and wanted it to mean what I stated in the whole question of the sentence?

You created a straw man in quoting half of the question.

Please learn to quote people exactly.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Through the years,it has been the debate over tongues that seems to cause much discord.
The other gifts Paul mentions in Corinthians are discarded by association.
Tongues have been misused so much ,that Paul's teaching is not considered in many Pennacostal Churches.
My Dad detested tongues, due to a experience he had at a Church service.
This experience was carnal and in direct contradiction to Paul's teaching.
For myself I do my best to keep with in the context of God's Word,so I cannot denounce the gifts by way of private interpretation.
At one point I sat down with a IDFB Pastor who told me the that which is perfect view.
The first thing I thought of was the face to face meeting.
I know that which is perfect will come and meet us face to face,and that can only be Jesus Christ.

now faith,

I don't know what IDFB is and Google didn't help me.

I join with you in agreeing that the perfect will come when we are 'face to face'. The NLT translates 1 Cor 13:12 as,

'Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely'.​

I find that to be a special, dynamic equivalence translation of that verse.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Happy birthday!

Thank you, now faith, for your best wishes. It's another milestone for this old man who is applying for the Australian age pension.

I hope it is confirmed by the end of 2017. Stacks of paper work to complete as the govt checks my assets.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[Greg Merrill]

Greg,

Please go back to #432 and you will see my statement and how you misquoted me. I accept your apology.

My question is exactly as I asked: 'Do you choose to quote only half of a sentence and make it mean what I actually stated?' That's what you did. You quoted only half of my sentence and wanted it to mean what I stated in the whole question of the sentence?

You created a straw man in quoting half of the question.

Please learn to quote people exactly.

Oz

I "think" I understand now. First of all I quote only what I want to respond to for sake of space and clarity. In this case I mistook the last part of your sentence for saying that you believed that perfection referred to the completing of the Old and New testaments, when that was not what you were saying at all, but were quoting what others believed. Now I understand your position. I definitely do not agree with it, but I understand it, and know that many erroneously hold to it just as strongly as you do.

 

[OzSpen]

I "think" I understand now. First of all I quote only what I want to respond to for sake of space and clarity. In this case I mistook the last part of your sentence for saying that you believed that perfection referred to the completing of the Old and New testaments, when that was not what you were saying at all, but were quoting what others believed. Now I understand your position. I definitely do not agree with it, but I understand it, and know that many erroneously hold to it just as strongly as you do.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

The "perfect" in the context it is written can only have one interpretation, and that is the return of Jesus Christ. I'm 100% in agreement with DeaconDean. When you see it for yourself, and you know its real, it changes your point of view. I was raised a full cessationist and lived that way for many years, until the voice of the Lord came upon me right there in the middle of a worship service. Now I believe otherwise because I cannot deny what happened, and I've heard similar stories from other Baptists who had the same experience. The bible tells us how to test the authenticity and my own experience met every test.

The Barna research did a study and asked Baptist seminary graduates how many believed that the gifts had ceased (except for Love) and it was like 70%. They asked Baptist preachers who had been in practice for over 25 years, and the result was 30%, meaning 70% now believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit did NOT cease with the last Apostle's death. So real life exposes them to see it for themselves.

My father in law witnessed a real life exorcism by a Baptist preacher. The guy was a drunk and it looked like the DTs but when they went into his house, the bed was bouncing on all 4 bedposts, and the guy howled in a strange voice when the preacher asked him if he wanted to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. He said NO in a very angry voice, then did the same a second time, but on the third time the guy said yes, and immediately the bed stopped bouncing up and down and the guy stopped shaking, and sat up and in his normal voice said yes. That guy was saved and later baptised, and 30 days later he died and we assume he went to be with the Lord. Now my Father in Law also believed in cessation of gifts, but he said when you see it for yourself like this exorcism, how can you deny what you saw with your own eyes?

 

[Greg Merrill]

The "perfect" in the context it is written can only have one interpretation, and that is the return of Jesus Christ. I'm 100% in agreement with DeaconDean. When you see it for yourself, and you know its real, it changes your point of view. I was raised a full cessationist and lived that way for many years, until the voice of the Lord came upon me right there in the middle of a worship service. Now I believe otherwise because I cannot deny what happened, and I've heard similar stories from other Baptists who had the same experience. The bible tells us how to test the authenticity and my own experience met every test.

The Barna research did a study and asked Baptist seminary graduates how many believed that the gifts had ceased (except for Love) and it was like 70%. They asked Baptist preachers who had been in practice for over 25 years, and the result was 30%, meaning 70% now believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit did NOT cease with the last Apostle's death. So real life exposes them to see it for themselves.

My father in law witnessed a real life exorcism by a Baptist preacher. The guy was a drunk and it looked like the DTs but when they went into his house, the bed was bouncing on all 4 bedposts, and the guy howled in a strange voice when the preacher asked him if he wanted to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. He said NO in a very angry voice, then did the same a second time, but on the third time the guy said yes, and immediately the bed stopped bouncing up and down and the guy stopped shaking, and sat up and in his normal voice said yes. That guy was saved and later baptised, and 30 days later he died and we assume he went to be with the Lord. Now my Father in Law also believed in cessation of gifts, but he said when you see it for yourself like this exorcism, how can you deny what you saw with your own eyes?

To me, Barna's research just shows a change perhaps, but doesn't prove cessation isn't so. The fulfillment of the predicted apostacy during the last times could explain this just as well.
Exorcism is not a gift, so therefore has nothing to do with cessation. It is a dangerous path when people start interpreting Scripture by experiences (that can be so misleading and deceiving) rather than just holding to Scripture itself.