What Did The ECF Believe About End Times

[BABerean2]

Then, by your own admission, there have been significantly more off subject posts in this thread than on subject posts.

The following article is about what the ECF believed and how their writings were selectively quoted to make them say the opposite, by one of the guys on your team...

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

From page 8 of the article...

"One of the things that really bothered me about Jeffrey's Apocalypse book, was his comment at the end of the section where he quoted the Church Fathers.
“Note that none of the writers quoted here suggests that the Church will experience the Great Tribulation and Mark of the Beast system of Antichrist.”
Anybody with one good eye can see that this statement is blatantly false. The quotes above from Hippolytus, as well as many others, prove this beyond dispute. Yet, Jeffrey continues to promote blatant lies."

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Would anyone like to elaborate more on the ECFs quoted above?

Did any of them view 1st century Jerusalem in Revelation?
Thanks..............

Anyone want to help me out concerning this previous post? Thanks


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[jgr]

Anyone want to help me out concerning this previous post? Thanks


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Nothing apparent here.

Which verse(s) would you think refer to Jerusalem?

 

[jgr]

Sorry, only looked at Chapter 1, but if you google "early christian writings revelation" you'll see links to all chapters.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Nothing apparent here.

Which verse(s) would you think refer to Jerusalem?

Pretty much all of Revelation 18.......

1 Chronicles 13:8
and David and all Israel are playing before God, with all strength, and with songs, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets.

Jeremiah 7:34
I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.
Jeremiah 16:9
For this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Before your eyes and in your days I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in this place.
Ezekiel 26:13
And I have caused the noise of thy songs to cease, And the voice of thy harps is heard no more.

Mat 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
Luk 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

Revelation 18:
21 And one strong messenger did take up a stone as a great millstone, and did cast [it] to the sea, saying, ‘Thus with violence shall Babylon be cast, the great City, and may not be found any more at all;
22 and voice of harpers, and musicians, and pipers, and trumpeters, may not be heard at all in thee any more; and any artizan of any art may not be found at all in thee any more; and noise of a millstone may not be heard at all in thee any more;
23 and light of a lamp may not shine at all in thee any more; and voice of bridegroom and of bride may not be heard at all in thee any more;..........



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[jgr]

There's one reference here, but from the Gospel of Nicodemus.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There's one reference here, but from the Gospel of Nicodemus.

Thanks
I thought for sure the preterist archive site would have something on Revelation and 70ad, but it is a huge site.
I will just have to go thru each of the sources listed below, tho it appears most of them seem to focus just on the Olivet Discourse..........

https://www.preteristarchive.com/early-christians-on-matthew-24-and-ad70-study-archive/

Early Christian Views on
Matthew 24 and AD70

• 71+AD The Jewish Sibylline Oracles (On the cause of the desolation) “An evil storm of war will also come upon Jerusalem from Italy, and it will sack the great Temple of God whenever they put their trust in folly and cast off piety and commit repulsive murders in front of the Temple. . . . A leader of Rome will come to Syria who will burn the Temple of Jerusalem with fire, at the same time slaughter many men and destroy the great land of the Jews with its broad roads. Then indeed an earthquake will destroy at once Salamis and Paphos when the dark water overwhelms Cyprus, which is washed by many waves.” (A.D. 80; 4115-118, 125-129)

• 71+AD The Jewish Talmud (On the Significance of the Forty Year Period) (The Soncino Talmud, Seder Mo’ed, vol. III Toma, p. 186) [Note: This was fulfilled to the letter! See: The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem]

• 75AD Flavius Josephus (note: Josephus was not a Christian but a Jewish historian) ( The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem Book VI, Chapter V, Section 2).

90AD Clement of Rome (Displaying Fulfillment of Matthew 24:14) The Martyrdom Of Peter And Paul. “But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes.(11) Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation.
90AD Clement of Rome (On the Last Days) “the Books and the Apostles teach that the church is not of the present, but from the beginning. For it was spiritual, as was also our Jesus, and was made manifest at the end of the days in order to save us. (Chap. XIV.– The Second Epistle to the Corinthians)..............

130AD Barnabas (On the demise of the Temple in the last days) “Moreover I will tell you likewise concerning the temple, how these wretched men being led astray set their hope on the building, and not on their God that made them, as being a house of God...........(Epistle of Barnabas, 16:1 ff.)
130AD Barnabas (On the fulfillment of prophecy) “Moreover understand this also, my brothers. When ye see that after so many signs and wonders wrought in Israel, even then they were abandoned, let us give heed, lest haply we be found, as the scripture saith, many called but few chosen. . .” (4:14, Epistle of Barnabas).....
130AD Barnabas (On the fulfillment of prophecy) “Therefore the Son of God came in the flesh to this end, that He might sum up the complete tale of their sins against those who persecuted and slew His prophets.” (5:11, Epistle of Barnabas)

150AD Justin Martyr (On the fulfillment of Isaiah 2:4) CHAP. XXXIX.–Direct Predictions By The Spirit. “And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.. (First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 11)
150AD Justin Martyr (On The Power of the Jews in the First Century) “The power of the Jews was now grown so great, that after this Antiochus they would not bear any Macedonian king over them; and that they set up a government of their own, and infested Syria with great wars.” (Quoted by Whiston, p. 2009)
150AD Justin Martyr (On the Significance of A.D.70) CHAP. XLVII.–Desolation Of Judaea Foretold. That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy......................
150AD Justin Martyr Chap. Xlvii.–Desolation Of Judaea Foretold. That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy. And the words were spoken as if from the person of the people wondering at what had happened. They are these: “Sion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.

160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) “We have still to add to our chronology the following, — I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian.............
160AD Clement of Alexandria (On the Significance of the A.D.70) “Whence also Peter, in his Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: ‘But we, unrolling the books of the prophets which we possess, who name Jesus Christ, partly in parables, partly in enigmas, partly expressly and in so many words.......

160AD Tertullian Chap. Viii.–Of The Times Of Christ’s Birth And Passion, And Of Jerusalem’s Destruction. “Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation.............
160AD Tertullian CHAP. XXIII.–The Dispersion Of The Jews, And Their Desolate Condition For Rejecting Christ, Foretold..........

170AD Melito, Bishop of Sardis (On the Significance of A.D.70).....
174AD Irenaeus (On Significance of A.D. 70) Chap. Iv.–
185AD Origen “But if “the children of Israel are to sit many days without a king, or ruler, or altar, or priesthood, or responses;”............
200AD Hippolytus of Rome (On the Significance of A.D.70)
200AD Tertullian Chap. Viii.– Of Jerusalem’s Destruction.
225AD Origen (On Luke 21:20)
225AD Origen (On The Faulty ‘Literal Method of Bible Interpretation’) “Many, not understanding the Scriptures in a spiritual sense, but incorrectly, have fallen into heresies.”
225AD Origen (On The Significance of A.D. 70)
250AD Cyprian (Thascius Caecilius Cyprianus) (On the Fulfillment of Prophecy)
250AD Lactantius
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On James, the Lord’s Brother in A.D. 65)
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On Matthew 24:34)
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On the ‘Millennial Reign’ of Christ)
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On the Significance of A.D.70) “If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously strange.” (Book III, Ch. VII)
345AD Athanasius “So the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet and vision cease from Israel?
375AD Chrysostom: “What then saith He? “Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying,
375AD ‘John’ Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:1,2) “And as He sat upon the mount of Olives,
403AD Sulpcius Severus (On The Roman-Jewish War)
403AD Sulpicius Severus (On the Significance of A.D.70)
419AD Augustine (On the ‘Final Destruction’ of the Jews)



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[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks
I thought for sure the preterist archive site would have something on Revelation and 70ad, but it is a huge site.
I will just have to go thru each of the sources listed below, tho it appears most of them seem to focus just on the Olivet Discourse..........
.

Ok, I finally found something on Revelation, 9 pages worth. Egads!!!
Doesn't look like any early ECFs on it tho....nothing I could find that is before 1600, but that is not to say there aren't any earlier than that......

Some early commentaries on it before 1700

https://www.preteristarchive.com/category/apocalypse-studies/

Joseph Hall: The Revelation unrevealed: Concerning the thousand-yeares reigne of the saints with Christ (1650)

Henry Hammond: A Paraphrase and Annotations upon all the Books of the New Testament (1653)

David Pareus: A commentary upon the divine Revelation of the apostle and ;evangelist John (1618)

Luis Alcasar: An Investigation into the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse (1614)

John Lightfoot: Introduction to the Revelation of John (1684)

A Premonition Concerning the Interpretation of the Apocalypse (1653)

Henry More: A Modest Enquiry into the Mystery of Iniquity, Book Two, Confuting Grotius (1664)


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[Biblewriter]

Anyone want to help me out concerning this previous post? Thanks


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The claims made by Tim Warner in the linked paper have been thoroughly debunked. They are absolutely untrue. He is the one who used carefully selected snippets from various ancient writers to make is seem that they taught things very different from what they actually taught.

I am the only scholar that I know about who has actually performed a thorough analysis of the entire eschatological scenario taught by Irenaeus.

Irenaeus unquestionably taught a rapture before the great tribulation he foresaw. But as that tribulation was only the last half of the seventieth week, what he was actually teaching was what today would be called a mid trib rapture.

He had this event taking place after the Antichrist rose and put the church to flight, but before a three and a half year "reign of terror" by this Antichrist. (Although Irenaeus only used the words "suddenly caught up," not the word "rapture.")

But Irenaeus did not consider this being "suddenly caught up" as imminent. He thought that the Lord would return in power and glory (at the end of the seventieth week) in the earth's six thousandth year. And as he used the Septuagint, whose chronology added 1500 years to that of the Masoretic text, which we use, that would mean he expected the rapture about three hundred or so years into his own future.

Irenaeus also insisted that the explicit statements of Bible prophecy should be interpreted literally. He taught that the Jews would be brought back to their homeland, and that they would be converted. (And he placed that conversion AFTER the church had been "suddenly caught up." And he taught a literal thousand year reign of Christ on this earth.

The entire twelve chapters he devoted to this subject could be read in an hour or two, and are very easy to find on the internet. Go read them. And then read the "Commentary on Daniel" and the "Treatise on Christ and Antichrist" by Hippolytus, which also are not very long and are easy to find on the internet. The entire study should take no more than a day or two. And after you have done it you will be familiar with what the second century church taught on eschatology. For Irenaeus wrote near the end of the second century and Hippolytus write just after it had ended.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Luke's Gospel seems to tie in more to Revelation than the others.

If Luke 21 is fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem, then the verses showing Jesus on a cloud in Revelation has to be that event also I would think.........

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

Revelation 10:1
And I saw another strong Messenger descending out of the heaven
having been clothed a cloud and the rainbow upon His head
and His face as the sun and His feet as pillars of fire

Revelation 14:14
And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle

Like Jesus in Acts 1, the 2 witnesses are taken up in a cloud:

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here"!
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies behold them.

These could be symbolizing Gabriel and Michael? This is the great harvest:

Revelation 14:
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Thy sickle! and reap!
for the time has come for Thee to reap, for the harvest of the land is ripe.”
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the land, and the land was reaped.

I am just so awed by all this Angelic imagery in Revelation and the OT.

Daniel 8:16
And I heard a Man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”
Daniel 9:21
yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the Man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering.
Daniel 10:
5 I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold! a Man clothed in linen,
with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude. [Revelation 1:13-15]
13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days.
Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help Me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

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[BABerean2]

Like Jesus in Acts 1, the 2 witnesses are taken up in a cloud:

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here"!
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies behold them.

These could be symbolizing Gabriel and Michael? This is the great harvest:

Revelation 14:
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Thy sickle! and reap!
for the time has come for Thee to reap, for the harvest of the land is ripe.”
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the land, and the land was reaped.

I am just so awed by all this Angelic imagery in Revelation and the OT.

What do the Two Witnesses symbolize, based on what is clearly written in scripture?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

Are they two men made of wood and metal?

What did Christ say about the symbol of the "lampstands" in the Book of Revelation?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Christ said the lampstands are a symbol of the churches.
Should we think the symbol has changed later in the book?

What symbol did Paul use to represent the New Covenant Church in Romans chapter 11?

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Paul used the two Olive Trees to symbolize the Church.

Therefore, the most logical interpretation would be that the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

They are killed for their witness, and are then resurrected from the dead, and then ascend into a cloud right before the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

We also find "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead, without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

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[Choose Wisely]

What do the Two Witnesses symbolize, based on what is clearly written in scripture?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

Are they two men made of wood and metal?

What did Christ say about the symbol of the "lampstands" in the Book of Revelation?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Christ said the lampstands are a symbol of the churches.
Should we think the symbol has changed later in the book?

What symbol did Paul use to represent the New Covenant Church in Romans chapter 11?

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Paul used the two Olive Trees to symbolize the Church.

Therefore, the most logical interpretation would be that the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

They are killed for their witness, and are then resurrected from the dead, and then ascend into a cloud right before the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

We also find "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead, without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

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The usual twisting of scripture and taking things out of context.

Instead of two flesh and blood witnesses that will come and represent the church as you suggest, it is the other way around. The two olive trees and two lampstands that stand before God represent the two flesh and blood witnesses.

Just because the 7 lampstands represent the 7 churches in Rev 1,that does not mean that the two lampstands that stand before God in Rev 11 represents the church. The word tells us exactly what those two lampstands represent.........they represent the two witnesses.

Bottom line........the two witnesses do not represent the church......the two olive trees and the two lampstands represent the two witnesses.........just like scripture clearly says.

Always twisting and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[DavidPT]

So you're saying the Gentiles.......option 4?

I would think Christ is the head of the church, and that the church consists of both Jew and Gentile, therefore making the one fold Jesus is the shepherd of, being the church. Why do you conclude that this one fold would only consist of Gentiles, rather than Jews and Gentiles combined?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The usual twisting of scripture and taking things out of context.

Always twisting and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Beware the scripture twisters..........

John 5:39
"Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having,
and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

2 Peter 3:16
As also/and in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand
which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting,
as also the rest of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [# 684 used revelation 17:8-11]

2 Peter 2:1
And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects,
and denying/disowning/arnou-menoi <720> (5740) the Owner/Master<1203> who bought them , bringing to themselves quick destruction

"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation
Owner/Master avenge the elect Saints

Luke 18:7
“And shall God not avenge<1557> His own elect/chosen who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? [Revelation 6:10 Revelation 19:2]

Revelation 6:10
And they cry out to a great voice saying "how long/till when, the Owner/Master<1203> the Holy and True,
not Thou are judging and avenging the blood of us from out of the ones homing upon the land?"

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[DavidPT]

What do the Two Witnesses symbolize, based on what is clearly written in scripture?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

Are they two men made of wood and metal?

What did Christ say about the symbol of the "lampstands" in the Book of Revelation?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Christ said the lampstands are a symbol of the churches.
Should we think the symbol has changed later in the book?

What symbol did Paul use to represent the New Covenant Church in Romans chapter 11?

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Paul used the two Olive Trees to symbolize the Church.

Therefore, the most logical interpretation would be that the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

They are killed for their witness, and are then resurrected from the dead, and then ascend into a cloud right before the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

We also find "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead, without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

.

I tend to somewhat agree with some of this. What I mainly disagree about is, that the bodily resurrection includes everyone who has died since the beginning of time. If this bodily resurrection of everyone dead in their graves occurs before those unsaved ones still alive on the earth are killed, what resurrection will they rise in if the bodily resurrection of all of the dead has already preceded their own physical deaths?

 

[BABerean2]

I tend to somewhat agree with some of this. What I mainly disagree about is, that the bodily resurrection includes everyone who has died since the beginning of time. If this bodily resurrection of everyone dead in their graves occurs before those unsaved ones still alive on the earth are killed, what resurrection will they rise in if the bodily resurrection of all of the dead has already preceded their own physical deaths?

Once again we are back to the fact that the book is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of visions that are repeated.

It is my belief that the resurrection of the Two Witnesses is concurrent with the 7th trumpet, and the judgment of the dead.

This would agree with Christ's words in John 5:27-30, which describes an "hour" when "all" will come from the graves, and be judged.

In Revelation 11:18, we also find the living nations, and "wrath".


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul says the judgment of both the living and the dead happen at His appearing.

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[DavidPT]

Once again we are back to the fact that the book is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of visions that are repeated.

It is my belief that the resurrection of the Two Witnesses is concurrent with the 7th trumpet, and the judgment of the dead.

This would agree with Christ's words in John 5:27-30, which describes an "hour" when "all" will come from the graves, and be judged.

In Revelation 11:18, we also find the living nations, and "wrath".


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul says the judgment of both the living and the dead happen at His appearing.

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Let's get on the same page here at least. Here's the page I'm on. And I'm being logical as far as I can tell. I want you to be logical as well.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Is this referring to the 2nd coming or not? Are all of these still physically alive at this point?

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

What about as of this verse? Are all of those in verse 19 still physically alive at this point? Obviously not. These have to appear among the dead at the great white judgment at some point. Which means they have to bodily rise from the dead. How do they bodily rise from the dead though, if the bodily resurrection of all of the dead has already preceded their own physical deaths?

 

[BABerean2]

How do they bodily rise from the dead though, if the bodily resurrection of all of the dead has already preceded their own physical deaths?

It does not.

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

Revelation 19:19-21. Goes here.

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

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[BABerean2]

The usual twisting of scripture and taking things out of context.

Instead of two flesh and blood witnesses that will come and represent the church as you suggest, it is the other way around. The two olive trees and two lampstands that stand before God represent the two flesh and blood witnesses.

Just because the 7 lampstands represent the 7 churches in Rev 1,that does not mean that the two lampstands that stand before God in Rev 11 represents the church. The word tells us exactly what those two lampstands represent.........they represent the two witnesses.

Bottom line........the two witnesses do not represent the church......the two olive trees and the two lampstands represent the two witnesses.........just like scripture clearly says.

Always twisting and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

If you want to think the Two Witnesses are two men made of wood and metal, then go right ahead.

That idea fits perfectly with pretrib logic.

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[Choose Wisely]

I would think Christ is the head of the church, and that the church consists of both Jew and Gentile, therefore making the one fold Jesus is the shepherd of, being the church. Why do you conclude that this one fold would only consist of Gentiles, rather than Jews and Gentiles combined?

I didn't. I said..........So you're saying the Gentiles.......option 4? You didn't really give a definite answer earlier.