What Did The ECF Believe About End Times

[thomasanderson]

What did the Early Church Fathers believe concerning eschatology? Please post your findings.

 

[HTacianas]

What did the Early Church Fathers believe concerning eschatology? Please post your findings.

To post my findings would take up a considerable amount of space.

Suffice to say that the sub-apostolic fathers were nearly all premillenialists, but as the next century or two passed the Church eventually became amillenialist to the point that premillenialism was condemned and hasn't been a part of Christianity since.

 

[thomasanderson]

To post my findings would take up a considerable amount of space.

Can you please post some quotes.

 

[HTacianas]

Can you please post some quotes.

I'm thumb-typing on my phone right now so it's hard to cut and paste too much.

But this website has a numbers of quotes from the Church fathers. I can't address the commentary but the quotes are accurate.

Critical Issues Commentary: Pre-Millennialism and the Early Church Fathers

 

[BABerean2]

What did the Early Church Fathers believe concerning eschatology? Please post your findings.

The following article shows how some have selectively quoted from the ECF, to make their doctrine work.

The true viewpoint is revealed in the article.

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

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[Petros2015]

This was interesting, you might want to validate from some other sources.

Canonicity and Acceptance of Revelation (in Revelation) - Anabaptistwiki

Evidence of the acceptance of the Book of Revelation in the Western church comes quite early. In Rome in A.D. 150, Justin Martyr names the book and its author, the apostle John (Dialogue with Trypho 81). In A.D. 170, the Muratorian Canon says that the Apocalypse of John was universally recognized in Rome (Swete, 1908:cx). Irenaeus (Adv. Haer. 3.11.1; 4.20.11; 5.35.2), Tertullian (Against Marcion 3.14.3), Hippolytus (de Ant. 36), Clement of Alexandria (Who Is the Rich Man Who Shall Be Saved? 42; Miscellanies 6.106-7), and Origen (Commentary on John 5.3) accept Revelation as scripture. In the fourth century, Eusebius says that some accept it as canonical, but he and others refer to it as a questioned book (Eccl. Hist. 4.26). His attitude may have been influenced by the use of the book by millenarians, who believed in a literal reign of Christ on the earth. Overall, though, Revelation was accepted early in the West. Evidence of this is found in the words of St. Jerome: “The Apocalypse of John has as many secrets as words. I am saying less than the book deserves. It is beyond all praise; for multiple meanings lie hidden in each single word” (Letter 53.9; translated in Caird, 1966:2).

To the church in the East, Revelation was unknown for four centuries. It was not included in the Peshitto Version of the New Testament in the fifth century. Yet in the fourth century, Athanasius recognized Revelation, and the Council of Carthage listed it as canonical. The Third Council of Constantinople in the seventh century accepted it as part of the scripture of the Eastern church. Nevertheless, the text and imagery of Revelation is absent from the hymns and liturgy of the Syrian church throughout its history. Therefore, Revelation was not accepted as readily in the Eastern church tra- dition (Gwynn, 1897:c-civ; R. H. Charles, 1920:1.cii; Beckwith, 1919:341- 43; Swete, 1908:cxvi-cxvii).

 

[thomasanderson]

Please this thread is for posting the beliefs of the ECF.

 

[Petros2015]

Sure, I'm just pointing out that some of the ECF may not have regarded it as scripture for centuries, on the eastern half.

 

[thomasanderson]

Sure, I'm just pointing out that some of the ECF may not have regarded it as scripture for centuries, on the eastern half.

Revelation isn’t the only book that end times beliefs are constructed from.

 

[Petros2015]

It seems difficult to find references, I've been looking for something by Athansius or Basil and not turning up anything on this topic. The conclusion that I am starting to reach is that the ECF may have been interested or focused on other things, the present times rather than the end ones.

Origen was interesting, he influenced many of the other ECF, though later I think was anathemetized.

Origen - Wikipedia

I found this which lists some writings of the ECF (including Origen) on Revelations

Early Church Fathers on the Apocalypse of John

 

[thomasanderson]

The conclusion that I am starting to reach is that the ECF may have been interested or focused on other things, the present times rather than the end ones.

No. As has already been shown by post #4 the quotes do indeed exist.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What did the Early Church Fathers believe concerning eschatology? Please post your findings.

This site may interest you and or others................
I would like to find what early century Jews believed concerning eschatology.
After all, almost all the end-time events pertain to them, imho.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/

https://www.preteristarchive.com/early-christians-on-matthew-24-and-ad70-study-archive/

Early Christian Views on
Matthew 24 and AD70

• 71+AD The Jewish Sibylline Oracles (On the cause of the desolation) “An evil storm of war will also come upon Jerusalem from Italy, and it will sack the great Temple of God whenever they put their trust in folly and cast off piety and commit repulsive murders in front of the Temple. . . . A leader of Rome will come to Syria who will burn the Temple of Jerusalem with fire, at the same time slaughter many men and destroy the great land of the Jews with its broad roads. Then indeed an earthquake will destroy at once Salamis and Paphos when the dark water overwhelms Cyprus, which is washed by many waves.” (A.D. 80; 4115-118, 125-129)

• 71+AD The Jewish Talmud (On the Significance of the Forty Year Period) (The Soncino Talmud, Seder Mo’ed, vol. III Toma, p. 186) [Note: This was fulfilled to the letter! See: The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem]

• 75AD Flavius Josephus (note: Josephus was not a Christian but a Jewish historian) ( The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem Book VI, Chapter V, Section 2).

90AD Clement of Rome (Displaying Fulfillment of Matthew 24:14) The Martyrdom Of Peter And Paul. “But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes.(11) Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation.
90AD Clement of Rome (On the Last Days) “the Books and the Apostles teach that the church is not of the present, but from the beginning. For it was spiritual, as was also our Jesus, and was made manifest at the end of the days in order to save us. (Chap. XIV.– The Second Epistle to the Corinthians)..............

130AD Barnabas (On the demise of the Temple in the last days) “Moreover I will tell you likewise concerning the temple, how these wretched men being led astray set their hope on the building, and not on their God that made them, as being a house of God...........(Epistle of Barnabas, 16:1 ff.)
130AD Barnabas (On the fulfillment of prophecy) “Moreover understand this also, my brothers. When ye see that after so many signs and wonders wrought in Israel, even then they were abandoned, let us give heed, lest haply we be found, as the scripture saith, many called but few chosen. . .” (4:14, Epistle of Barnabas).....
130AD Barnabas (On the fulfillment of prophecy) “Therefore the Son of God came in the flesh to this end, that He might sum up the complete tale of their sins against those who persecuted and slew His prophets.” (5:11, Epistle of Barnabas)

150AD Justin Martyr (On the fulfillment of Isaiah 2:4) CHAP. XXXIX.–Direct Predictions By The Spirit. “And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.. (First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 11)
150AD Justin Martyr (On The Power of the Jews in the First Century) “The power of the Jews was now grown so great, that after this Antiochus they would not bear any Macedonian king over them; and that they set up a government of their own, and infested Syria with great wars.” (Quoted by Whiston, p. 2009)
150AD Justin Martyr (On the Significance of A.D.70) CHAP. XLVII.–Desolation Of Judaea Foretold. That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy......................
150AD Justin Martyr Chap. Xlvii.–Desolation Of Judaea Foretold. That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy. And the words were spoken as if from the person of the people wondering at what had happened. They are these: “Sion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.

160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) “We have still to add to our chronology the following, — I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian.............
160AD Clement of Alexandria (On the Significance of the A.D.70) “Whence also Peter, in his Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: ‘But we, unrolling the books of the prophets which we possess, who name Jesus Christ, partly in parables, partly in enigmas, partly expressly and in so many words.......

160AD Tertullian Chap. Viii.–Of The Times Of Christ’s Birth And Passion, And Of Jerusalem’s Destruction. “Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation.............
160AD Tertullian CHAP. XXIII.–The Dispersion Of The Jews, And Their Desolate Condition For Rejecting Christ, Foretold..........

170AD Melito, Bishop of Sardis (On the Significance of A.D.70).....
174AD Irenaeus (On Significance of A.D. 70) Chap. Iv.–
185AD Origen “But if “the children of Israel are to sit many days without a king, or ruler, or altar, or priesthood, or responses;”............
200AD Hippolytus of Rome (On the Significance of A.D.70)
200AD Tertullian Chap. Viii.– Of Jerusalem’s Destruction.
225AD Origen (On Luke 21:20)
225AD Origen (On The Faulty ‘Literal Method of Bible Interpretation’) “Many, not understanding the Scriptures in a spiritual sense, but incorrectly, have fallen into heresies.”
225AD Origen (On The Significance of A.D. 70)
250AD Cyprian (Thascius Caecilius Cyprianus) (On the Fulfillment of Prophecy)
250AD Lactantius
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On James, the Lord’s Brother in A.D. 65)
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On Matthew 24:34)
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On the ‘Millennial Reign’ of Christ)
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On the Significance of A.D.70) “If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously strange.” (Book III, Ch. VII)
345AD Athanasius “So the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet and vision cease from Israel?
375AD Chrysostom: “What then saith He? “Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying,
375AD ‘John’ Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:1,2) “And as He sat upon the mount of Olives,
403AD Sulpcius Severus (On The Roman-Jewish War)
403AD Sulpicius Severus (On the Significance of A.D.70)
419AD Augustine (On the ‘Final Destruction’ of the Jews)


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[thomasanderson]

Revelation isn’t the only book that end times beliefs are constructed from.

The ECF also had tradition because teachings were handed down to them directly from the apostles.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The ECF also had tradition because teachings were handed down to them directly from the apostles.

Like noses, everyone has one........
Rom 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1Co 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Co 3:3
for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads the names of blasphemy. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:1,8).

According to the Emphatic Diaglott the correct rendering of the latter part of this passage is: "The Book of the Life of the Lamb."
Now, what is meant by this term – THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB?
The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccles 12:12).

The book stores are filled to overflowing today with all types of books dealing with every aspect of earthly life. Even in the church world there are books setting forth every kind of viewpoint relating to God, the Bible, doctrine, Christian experience, and church order.
However the subject material of most of these books largely contains a message of religious tradition and spiritual death.

But God is also producing a book – a book containing a message of life. For the past two millenniums God, by His Holy Spirit, has been writing portions of this Book in the minds and hearts of His people.



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[Biblewriter]

The ECF indeed wrote very extensively on end time prophecy. And up to the fifth century, they were almost unanimously pre-millennial. In addition to this, some of them were also pre-tribulational.

The oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy that we know about was written by Papias. It is thought that his book, which was titled "Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord" was written between 110 and 140 A.D. But as he was pre-millennial, or, as they called it in those days, a chilist, the medieval monks did not see fit to preserve even one copy of his writings. All we have from him is ten short quotations published by later writers.

The next oldest such commentary we know about, and the oldest one that has been preserved, is the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus titled "Against Heresies," which is thought to have been published between the years 186 and 188 A.D. As this work very effectively exposed the false doctrines of the main heretical sects, it became what was probably the most widely circulated non-inspired document in the early church.

Most of these twelve chapters read like they might have been written last week at any one of the large Dispensational Seminaries in the United States.

Irenaeus was followed by Hippolytus, who penned the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture, which was a commentary on the book of Daniel that is thought to have been published between the years 202 and 211 A.D.

There were a few earlier comments that touch on prophetic subjects. But all of them were only short comments in works that were about other subjects. So these two documents, that is, the ones by Irenaeus and by Hippolytus, are our closest possible approach to what the post Apostolic church actually taught and believed about eschatology.

Both of these works were plainly pre-millennial, as was the lost work by Papias. And this doctrine continued to be the standard doctrine of the church at least up to the fifth century.

Just a few weeks ago, my book, "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris, became available for online purchasing from Dispensational Publishing House. In this book I demonstrated at length that not only pre-millennialism, but also the main elements of dispensationalism, were clearly taught in these earliest Christian documents on the subject, and continued to be taught at least up to the fifth century.

I am not going to repeat the many excerpts from these documents I have already posted here. Instead, here are links to threads where I have posted them on Christian Forums in the past. Each of these links takes you to near the end of the discussion. So after you follow each one, go back to post #1 in the thread to read what the ECFs actually wrote about these subjects. The naysayers attack these, so read the entire discussions and judge for yourself.

What the early church actually taught What the early church actually taught. part 1
This thread had a six part OP.

Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings
Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings

Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.
Dispensationalist Only - Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.

 

[BABerean2]

The ECF indeed wrote very extensively on end time prophecy. And up to the fifth century, they were almost unanimously pre-millennial. In addition to this, some of them were also pre-tribulational.

The oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy that we know about was written by Papias. It is thought that his book, which was titled "Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord" was written between 110 and 140 A.D. But as he was pre-millennial, or, as they called it in those days, a chilist, the medieval monks did not see fit to preserve even one copy of his writings. All we have from him is ten short quotations published by later writers.

The next oldest such commentary we know about, and the oldest one that has been preserved, is the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus titled "Against Heresies," which is thought to have been published between the years 186 and 188 A.D. As this work very effectively exposed the false doctrines of the main heretical sects, it became what was probably the most widely circulated non-inspired document in the early church.

Most of these twelve chapters read like they might have been written last week at any one of the large Dispensational Seminaries in the United States.

And how many of the ECF claimed that modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church, during a future time?

That claim is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology.

I hope and pray that the readers of this thread will compare the claims above to the links below, and then judge the truth for themselves.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

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[Biblewriter]

And how many of the ECF claimed that modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church, during a future time?

That claim is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology.

I hope and pray that the readers of this thread will compare the claims above to the links below, and then judge the truth for themselves.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

The content of the links in this post (none of which, by the way, were the thoughts of the poster, but simply the thoughts of others,) have been conclusively demonstrated to be erroneous. And the man that keeps posting them has seen the proof, and keeps posting them anyway.

As is clearly demonstrated in the links I posted, (which, by the way, were all written by myself,) the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day, taught that the church would be "suddenly caught up" after the appearance of the Antichrist, but before he began a three and a half year reign of terror. Then, he taught that the Antichrist would bring "the Jews" back to their homeland and that after that, "the Jews" would be converted. This very clearly means that he taught that "the Jews" would be converted AFTER the church had been "suddenly caught up," which is EXACTLY the doctrine that this poster falsely claims was never taught before around 1830 or so. He pretends this means that Israel will be converted "outside of the church," and falsely accuses dispensationalists of thereby teaching heresy. In saying this, he is being willfully deceptive, in attempting to make it seem that we teach that anyone can ever be saved without trusting in the blood shed at Calvary by our Lord Jesus Christ. He KNOWS we do not teach that, but he KEEPS ON trying to make it appear that we do.

 

[Willie T]

Oh Brother..... here we go again.

 

[Biblewriter]

Oh Brother..... here we go again.

I agree. But I cannot let false accusations continue without confrontation.

 

[BABerean2]

The content of the links in this post (none of which, by the way, were the thoughts of the poster, but simply the thoughts of others,) have been conclusively demonstrated to be erroneous. And the man that keeps posting them has seen the proof, and keeps posting them anyway.

As is clearly demonstrated in the links I posted, (which, by the way, were all written by myself,) the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day, taught that the church would be "suddenly caught up" after the appearance of the Antichrist, but before he began a three and a half year reign of terror. Then, he taught that the Antichrist would bring "the Jews" back to their homeland and that after that, "the Jews" would be converted. This very clearly means that he taught that "the Jews" would be converted AFTER the church had been "suddenly caught up," which is EXACTLY the doctrine that this poster falsely claims was never taught before around 1830 or so. He pretends this means that Israel will be converted "outside of the church," and falsely accuses dispensationalists of thereby teaching heresy. In saying this, he is being willfully deceptive, in attempting to make it seem that we teach that anyone can ever be saved without trusting in the blood shed at Calvary by our Lord Jesus Christ. He KNOWS we do not teach that, but he KEEPS ON trying to make it appear that we do.

And all of your claims above rest upon an ignorance of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24.

How much did you write about the fulfillment of the New Covenant in your latest book?


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

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