What did Paul mean and one other thing I've been thinking about

[St_Worm2]

I have heard theology that says even dead people get to see Jesus and accept his salvation if they choose. Because it does say in the Bible the "every knee shall bend." So I think those with hardened hearts will fall to their knees and accept the redemption Christ offers. But how can we know until it's our time? All we have is what we read and hear. At the time of our death, we will have the full revelation.

Hello rturner76, what we "read" is from God Himself, and what we "hear" is from the church. Do you believe that God and the church are either deceiving us or lying to us about the judgment and condemnation that will occur at the end of the age for unbelievers? If so, why do you think God and/or the church would choose to do that?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - it's interesting to find a RC who disagrees with the RCC concerning the effects of dying in mortal sin (or is there perhaps a RC teaching that I am unaware of concerning that?), as well a RC who displays Ephesians 2:8 as their signature line verse

 

[rturner76]

Hello rturner76, what we "read" is from God Himself, and what we "hear" is from the church. Do you believe that God and the church are either deceiving us or lying to us about the judgment and condemnation that will occur at the end of the age for unbelievers? If so, why do you think God and/or the church would choose to do that?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - it's interesting to find a RC who disagrees with the RCC concerning the effects of dying in mortal sin (or is there perhaps a RC teaching that I am unaware of concerning that?), as well a RC who displays Ephesians 2:8 as their signature line verse

I understand that you believe every person who has not accepted Christ goes straight to hell, even if they never heard the gospel.

I think if you never had the choice, and you must go straight to hell when you die that is cruel and unusual punishment.

Here is something the Catechism says:
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

If you grew up in a country where it is illegal to preach Christianity, you had no choice to deny Christ, it was forced on you.

That's why I believe God doesn't just abandon people.

 

[HIM]

Rom 7 is a continuation of Rom 6. Like Rom 6, it speaks of Christians as dying with Christ and rising to new life. But we continue to be a mix of the old man and the new man. He locates the Law with the old life. Depending upon your interpretation, Paul thinks the Law's role is ended, or at least is ended for the new life.

Much of Rom 7 is about the uselessness of the Law, at least its inability to make real change in us. At times Paul sees a role for the Law in providing a moral standard, but a moral standard isn't enough. We need to be made new and to have the Holy Spirit in us.

As you note, at the end it speaks of the difficult situation of being reborn with Christ, but still having remnants of the old life. I think he's talking more about this split in our character or motivation than about the struggle with sin, in this specific passage, though the split certainly does produce a struggle.

You asked whether this is before being saved. In my opinion this situation of being torn really only applies to those who are in Christ. However you're in the traditional theology forum. Most of the traditional groups don't place the same emphasis on a specific moment of being saved as Evangelicals do, and the phrase "being saved" isn't part of all of our theology. While we may experience a single moment, if you look back over your life, you'll probably see God's working long before that. To the extent that the Holy Spirit was always working with you, I think this split may always have been around, though you may not have been as conscious of it.

I don’t know that there’s a single answer to the question of those who haven’t heard the Gospel. I think a lot of traditional theology prefers to leave that up to God. We know what he has told us to do. We don’t know the limits of how far he goes with others.

There are signs in Paul of God accepting at least some non-Christians:
* Rom 2 speaks of people pagans who have the Law written in their hearts
* Rom 3:25 says that God passed over sin before Christ came
* Act 17:30 quotes Paul as saying something similar: that God overlooked human ignorance

But these are just hints. So traditional Christians often leave this to the mercy of God.

And Romans 8 is a continuation of 7 and 6. There Paul speaks of being made free from the Law of sin and death that he mentioned to being in captivity in Rom 7:21,23,24

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

 

[The Liturgist]

Hello rturner76, what we "read" is from God Himself, and what we "hear" is from the church. Do you believe that God and the church are either deceiving us or lying to us about the judgment and condemnation that will occur at the end of the age for unbelievers? If so, why do you think God and/or the church would choose to do that?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - it's interesting to find a RC who disagrees with the RCC concerning the effects of dying in mortal sin (or is there perhaps a RC teaching that I am unaware of concerning that?), as well a RC who displays Ephesians 2:8 as their signature line verse

There is a doctrine @rturner76 is referring to called “Invincible Ignorance,” whereby God by special grace acts to save people, for example, members of uncontacted tribes, Buddhist villagers in Bhutan, completely cut off from the outside world by a theocratic monarchy, and North Korean peasants, for example, who have not had the chance to hear His Gospel. Remember what our Lord said: “I will have mercy and not sacrifice” and “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy.”

And this doctrine, although at first glance highly indicated by free will, such as Arminianism, is not incompatible with Calvinist determinism, because in any event, such a salvation results from God’s omnipotence, allowing our Lord to dispense mercy as He sees fit.

 

[RDKirk]

Hi and in Rom 1:19-32 eplains why God gave them up !

2 Cor 12:6-10 explains why the ( THORN IN THE FLESH ) was given to Paul and I bellieve that Gal 6: 11 explains what that THORN WAS , almost BLINDNESS !

dan p

I think Paul continued to suffer eye problems, as noted in Galatians, but I don't think that was his "thorn in the flesh."

Voluminously before and after the "thorn in the flesh" metaphor, Paul lets us know clearly that he was unphased by mere physical difficulties, and if his eyesight difficulties began with being blinded by the light of Jesus on the road to Damascus, that would have been something he would taken honor in suffering.

Rather, I think Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was the continued harassment of the Judaizers who dogged him nearly every where he went, and even tried hard to assassinate him. They were a hindrance to his evangelism, and anything hindering his evangelism would drive him to desperate prayer for deliverance far more than a physical handicap.

Moreover, that wasn't the only time the "thorn in the flesh" metaphor is found in scripture. It was first used by God.

But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live. -- Numbers 33

That metaphor referred to obstructive people, and I think Paul reused it in the same context.

 

[St_Worm2]

I understand that you believe every person who has not accepted Christ goes straight to hell, even if they never heard the gospel.

I think if you never had the choice, and you must go straight to hell when you die that is cruel and unusual punishment.

Here is something the Catechism says:
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

If you grew up in a country where it is illegal to preach Christianity, you had no choice to deny Christ, it was forced on you.

That's why I believe God doesn't just abandon people.

Hello again rturner76, what I believe concerning those who die outside of Christ is that they will stand before God and be judged by Him on the basis of:

1. what they know/understand of the law, NOT what they do not know or understand (even if what they know/understand is nothing more than the one that God writes on each of our hearts/consciences) and,
2. what they have done/said/thought in regards to that law (IOW, in regard to the right/wrong that they do know/understand)
​

In St. Paul's great treatise (Romans 1:18-3:23) concerning all who are ~outside~ of Christ, whether they be Jew or Greek (Gentile), he writes (in part):

Romans 2
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, ~do by nature~ things required by the law, they are a law unto themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15 since they show that the requirements of the law are ~written on their hearts~, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.
16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.​

I've gotta run right now, but I hope to return a bit later to finish my reply to you (Dv).

God bless you

--David

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way, for those of you who are just joining us, please read the Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose.

 

[rturner76]

There is a doctrine @rturner76 is referring to called “Invincible Ignorance,” whereby God by special grace acts to save people, for example, members of uncontacted tribes, Buddhist villagers in Bhutan, completely cut off from the outside world by a theocratic monarchy, and North Korean peasants, for example, who have not had the chance to hear His Gospel. Remember what our Lord said: “I will have mercy and not sacrifice” and “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy.”

And this doctrine, although at first glance highly indicated by free will, such as Arminianism, is not incompatible with Calvinist determinism, because in any event, such a salvation results from God’s omnipotence, allowing our Lord to dispense mercy as He sees fit.

thank you for this. Learned something new.

 

[RDKirk]

There is a doctrine @rturner76 is referring to called “Invincible Ignorance,” whereby God by special grace acts to save people, for example, members of uncontacted tribes, Buddhist villagers in Bhutan, completely cut off from the outside world by a theocratic monarchy, and North Korean peasants, for example, who have not had the chance to hear His Gospel. Remember what our Lord said: “I will have mercy and not sacrifice” and “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy.”

And this doctrine, although at first glance highly indicated by free will, such as Arminianism, is not incompatible with Calvinist determinism, because in any event, such a salvation results from God’s omnipotence, allowing our Lord to dispense mercy as He sees fit.

That is given in the book of Jonah as God's reason for sending a prophet to the Ninevites. God refused to destroy them before they'd had a chance to hear about Him: "Why should I not be concerned for these people, who know not their right hand from their left?"

Jesus enunciated the same principle a couple of times:

“If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains.” -- John 9

"The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. -- Luke 12

And then Paul states the same concept negatively:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. -- Romans 1

I believe Paul is drawing from two sources here, one is Psalm 19 and the other stems from what he said to the Athenians in Acts 17. Paul knows of Greeks who never heard the Gospel, yet have deduced from their observations of the heavens that there is an "unknown god" who is the master controller of the universe (he's even able to quote one of them, so he knows the doctrine). Paul states that their "unknown god" is in fact the true God of creation. Therefore, because of the witness of creation nobody has an excuse to claim, "There is no god." (I would also argue that Job knew of God through creation.)

So it is clear that God takes each person's level of knowledge and level of ignorance into consideration in His judgement. That's why I believe infants are saved...not because they are innocent (they do, after all, still bear the sin of Adam), but because they are totally ignorant.

In Protestant circles, this is also known as "inclusivism." C.S. Lewis was an inclusivist, as was Billy Graham. I am, too. However, inclusivism does add a caveat: Because creation is a witness to God's existence and essential virtue, a person who has not heard the gospel is only "included" if his spirit is disquieted by the religion around him. Like the Greeks who said, "There is a true God out there, and this pantheon everyone else worships is not Him," there will be people who have been enabled by the Father, (John 6) and would accept the gospel...if they could hear it. But they are discomfited in their souls because the religion their society offers them provides them no satisfaction.

C.S. Lewis provides an example of this in the final novel of his Chronicles of Narnia, "The Last Battle." That novel is about the End Times, the return of Aslan (Christ), and the final judgement. There was a prince of the Calormen, the long-time enemies of Narnia, who has come to the realization that the god he had always worshipped is not what he'd been taught, and he's rejected that god. As a result, he has been thrown into a dungeon to be executed. At the time of the final judgment, Aslan appears to him in prison. He throws himself at Aslan's feet, declaring himself having been wrong all his life and deserving nothing but Aslan's fatal vengeance. Aslan tells him that in his heart it was always Aslan he had sought to serve. The prince suddenly finds himself in the New Narnia...to his own surprise and to the surprise of the other saved faithful.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Just a short background. I was raised Roman Catholic. Then I drifted away but became a born again Christian when I was around 40 years old. I'm nearly 77 now. I've read the bible many, many times, had it on tapes, read portions of it when I'm moved to, read many books by many authors about Christianity. I pray daily...usually as go to sleep at night and when I wake in the morning. I am a believer who believes the Scriptures to be God breathed and accurate no matter the language or historical time and that the Holy Spirit reveals the truths of Scripture when you particularly need to know. The Nicene Creed and Apostle's Creed state for me the reality I live. Having said that, I often have questions.

I'd like to know what this group has to say about Roman's 7 when Paul speaks of the struggle with sin. Some say that struggle is prior to being saved...for example Paul's struggle when he was a Pharisaical Jew in meeting all of the Jewish Law. Other's say that one has to be saved to actually recognize the struggle with sin, so Paul is speaking of his own struggle with it as a Christian...and how a redeemed person struggles with the flesh. Perhaps that might explain his prayer to take away the "thorn" that he spoke of elsewhere? So, I'm interested it what this group of Christians have to say about this. It seems the various iterations of Christian churches have a bit of kerfluffle about this chapter of Romans...even within denominations.

The other thing is the question about the salvation of those who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have pondered that question for years. I think a lot of people have. One night as I was lying in bed and doing my prayers it sort of came to me about what Jesus did. We all agree and believe He was incarnate as the sinless man who suffered and died on the cross to pay for sin in place of each of us. There are 100 verses in the bible referring to Christ dying to pay the price for sin "once for all". So the thought that passed through my mind is that every person who has never heard about Jesus is saved by His sacrifice..."once for all." All means all people at all times, does it not? And if there are people who have never heard the Word of God, Jesus will stand for them as well. What say you?

Dear Grampster,

There is much I probably need to say to answer your two questions but I will try to keep it brief. If after reading my answers you have any questions, I will be happy to answer them and give more scriptural support.

You asked about why a Christian sins and about those who have "never heard". I will try to answer below in my comments below.

We are all born spiritually weak and because of this spiritual flaw, we immediately from birth develop a carnal nature/carnal mind. With that nature, we become sinning machines so to speak. Christ introduced mankind to the LAW (via the Nation of Israel) to prove to mankind that there is nothing we do from our own attempts (works) to ever change it. We (mankind) do not have the ability to change ourselves spiritually. Our "works" can only change the outside of the cup. Christ came to show us the only hope mankind has is to be changed from within (spiritually, inside of the cup).

To do this great spiritual change within mankind, Christ came with a plan. Since mankind's spiritual condition will not allow mankind to know God or to even desire to seek Him, Christ comes to us. He purchased our sin debt at the cross so now we owe "death" to Him (the true penalty of sin). Christ will come to each of us (all mankind) someday to collect that debt from us but in a way that will allow us to live on. Here is how He does it: At a time of Christ choosing, He spiritually comes (without observation and within us) to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of His Spirit. This is the time the person becomes a believer and is "called out" from the world. But at that time, Christ only give us the "earnest" amount of the Spirit. It is not enough to change (save) us. At that time, we are still left carnally minded and spiritually blind. Satan then quickly comes to us and deceives us. We accept Satan lies as truth and unknowingly begin following his ways instead of the ways of Christ. However, IF Christ has chosen us to be a part of the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind, He will come to us again and give us the Latter Rain of the Spirit. When that happens, He heals our spiritual blindness, gives us more faith and the remaining portion of the Holy Spirit. At this time, we quickly come out from Satan's deceptions and are finally "born again" as a New Man in Christ. This gives us a new spiritual nature. However, our carnal nature is not yet destroyed. It lives on and is judged by Christ until it is destroyed. John the Baptist is a "type" of the Old Man and he said this:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

After our new birth, the New Man starts maturing and the Old Man is judged and is slowly destroyed. Once this long process is complete, all that is left is the New Man in Christ who never sins. When this process is actually complete, I do not know. I have not yet found a scripture that clearly says it. It may not be complete until we are resurrected and given a new spiritual body to match our new nature. That is my current belief as present.

Water baptism is a spiritual symbol for how Christ saves us. The immersion represents the death of our Old Man (the penalty of death we owe Christ) and the rising up out of the water represents the birth of our new nature, the New Man in Christ.

Now for the order of salvation. Christ in this present age is ONLY saving the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. Most people are not "called out" by Him during their lifetimes. This includes those who have "never heard". But many are Called Out and from that group of Called Out individuals, Christ has chosen a few to be saved now. All Called Out believers receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. IF they are also "chosen from the foundation of the world", they will at some point receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit, too. It is not until a person receives both the Early Rain and Latter Rain that they are saved (changed). For all those who "die in their sins", which is most of mankind, they are resurrected to judgment and are saved by the end of that final age. Christ really is the Savior of the World and He will not fail to accomplish His mission of saving the world which the Father gave Him to do:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Here are a few other verses:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

By the end of the final age, all mankind will be changed spiritually and our relationship with the Father will be restored. Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and Christ's reign will come to an end. Then God will be "all in all".

The Doctrine of Hel is one of Satan's lies that he deceives the church with. And coupled with the lie of the Doctrine of Free Will, those who are called out will "fall away" back to seeking salvation by "works". That is the sin that leads to death. It is only when the Latter Rain is given that they can come out from Satan's deceptions and learn the truth of God.

I know most of what I have stated is new to you and is not taught in churches. But the churches are full of spiritually blind individuals who do not know the truth of God. Christ is hidden from this world and from those whom He has called out. Only the chosen Elect who are the First Fruits of His harvest are healed of their spiritual blindness and can know the truth. They are the ones who have "ears that can hear" and "eyes that can see". But in the end, all mankind will be saved. God is Love and love never fails. To believe otherwise, is to bring God down to the level of mankind.

Joe

 

[eleos1954]

Dear Grampster,

There is much I probably need to say to answer your two questions but I will try to keep it brief. If after reading my answers you have any questions, I will be happy to answer them and give more scriptural support.

You asked about why a Christian sins and about those who have "never heard". I will try to answer below in my comments below.

We are all born spiritually weak and because of this spiritual flaw, we immediately from birth develop a carnal nature/carnal mind. With that nature, we become sinning machines so to speak. Christ introduced mankind to the LAW (via the Nation of Israel) to prove to mankind that there is nothing we do from our own attempts (works) to ever change it. We (mankind) do not have the ability to change ourselves spiritually. Our "works" can only change the outside of the cup. Christ came to show us the only hope mankind has is to be changed from within (spiritually, inside of the cup).

To do this great spiritual change within mankind, Christ came with a plan. Since mankind's spiritual condition will not allow mankind to know God or to even desire to seek Him, Christ comes to us. He purchased our sin debt at the cross so now we owe "death" to Him (the true penalty of sin). Christ will come to each of us (all mankind) someday to collect that debt from us but in a way that will allow us to live on. Here is how He does it: At a time of Christ choosing, He spiritually comes (without observation and within us) to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of His Spirit. This is the time the person becomes a believer and is "called out" from the world. But at that time, Christ only give us the "earnest" amount of the Spirit. It is not enough to change (save) us. At that time, we are still left carnally minded and spiritually blind. Satan then quickly comes to us and deceives us. We accept Satan lies as truth and unknowingly begin following his ways instead of the ways of Christ. However, IF Christ has chosen us to be a part of the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind, He will come to us again and give us the Latter Rain of the Spirit. When that happens, He heals our spiritual blindness, gives us more faith and the remaining portion of the Holy Spirit. At this time, we quickly come out from Satan's deceptions and are finally "born again" as a New Man in Christ. This gives us a new spiritual nature. However, our carnal nature is not yet destroyed. It lives on and is judged by Christ until it is destroyed. John the Baptist is a "type" of the Old Man and he said this:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

After our new birth, the New Man starts maturing and the Old Man is judged and is slowly destroyed. Once this long process is complete, all that is left is the New Man in Christ who never sins. When this process is actually complete, I do not know. I have not yet found a scripture that clearly says it. It may not be complete until we are resurrected and given a new spiritual body to match our new nature. That is my current belief as present.

Water baptism is a spiritual symbol for how Christ saves us. The immersion represents the death of our Old Man (the penalty of death we owe Christ) and the rising up out of the water represents the birth of our new nature, the New Man in Christ.

Now for the order of salvation. Christ in this present age is ONLY saving the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. Most people are not "called out" by Him during their lifetimes. This includes those who have "never heard". But many are Called Out and from that group of Called Out individuals, Christ has chosen a few to be saved now. All Called Out believers receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. IF they are also "chosen from the foundation of the world", they will at some point receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit, too. It is not until a person receives both the Early Rain and Latter Rain that they are saved (changed). For all those who "die in their sins", which is most of mankind, they are resurrected to judgment and are saved by the end of that final age. Christ really is the Savior of the World and He will not fail to accomplish His mission of saving the world which the Father gave Him to do:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Here are a few other verses:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

By the end of the final age, all mankind will be changed spiritually and our relationship with the Father will be restored. Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and Christ's reign will come to an end. Then God will be "all in all".

The Doctrine of Hel is one of Satan's lies that he deceives the church with. And coupled with the lie of the Doctrine of Free Will, those who are called out will "fall away" back to seeking salvation by "works". That is the sin that leads to death. It is only when the Latter Rain is given that they can come out from Satan's deceptions and learn the truth of God.

I know most of what I have stated is new to you and is not taught in churches. But the churches are full of spiritually blind individuals who do not know the truth of God. Christ is hidden from this world and from those whom He has called out. Only the chosen Elect who are the First Fruits of His harvest are healed of their spiritual blindness and can know the truth. They are the ones who have "ears that can hear" and "eyes that can see". But in the end, all mankind will be saved. God is Love and love never fails. To believe otherwise, is to bring God down to the level of mankind.

Joe

This seems to be the teaching of universalism and is not biblically supported. Indeed God is love .... God is also just.

John 14:6; Revelation 20:14-15; Revelation 21:8; Daniel 12:2; John 3:18; Matthew 7:13-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10.

Some will be lost .... some will be saved ... and only God knows the heart of all men. All will be judged according to their knowledge .... judgement is solely up to Christ.

John 5

21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes. 22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

Not all of mankind will be saved.

 

[FaithWillDo]

This seems to be the teaching of universalism and is not biblically supported. Indeed God is love .... God is also just.

John 14:6; Revelation 20:14-15; Revelation 21:8; Daniel 12:2; John 3:18; Matthew 7:13-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10.

Some will be lost .... some will be saved ... and only God knows the heart of all men. All will be judged according to their knowledge .... judgement is solely up to Christ.

John 5

21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes. 22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

Not all of mankind will be saved.

Dear eleos1954,
God is love and His love for us never fails - not even for one person. And yes, God is just and that is why it is imperative that He save us. He is responsible for creating us spiritually flawed and He has sent Christ to destroy that vessel and to make us into a spiritually perfect vessel.

Below I will further explain God's plan for mankind:

Man's spiritual condition we have from birth is "flawed". It was NOT a mistake by God. We were made that way on purpose so that our "flesh" controls us. That is why we are carnally minded and why Christ in a physical body was not. Christ was spiritually perfect. In other words, Christ overcame this carnal world and never sinned whereas, mankind cannot.

It is not man's fault that we sin. God is responsible for our spiritual condition that causes us to sin.

So why did God make us spiritually flawed?

Since this Creation is for God's purpose of producing His offspring (sons of God), He wants us to be "like" Him. And to be like Him, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". God even created Satan to be our tempter and deceiver so that we would have a fuller experience of evil.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster (Satan) to destroy.

In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition we ALL become sinful, evil creatures. That is why scripture says:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Mankind's carnal nature is "hatred" towards God. And because of such, we can't understand Him or want to seek His ways.

On the other hand, Satan was created to fed upon the dust of the ground (Gen 3:14). The "dust of the ground" represents our carnal nature and that is why Satan works to destroy and deceive mankind.

When Adam and Eve were created spiritually flawed, they quickly become carnally minded. God put Satan in the Garden to do his work of tempting Eve so that she would sin. Eve could not have possibly done anything else but fall to his temptations. Eve even displayed the three causes of sin BEFORE she sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

God, of course knew this and it was His plan all along for Adam and Eve to sin. And just as Adam and Eve sinned, so do all of their offspring. Mankind's sin was planned and caused by God so that we would experience evil. With God, "evil" is a tool that He uses for His good and righteous purposes. In this case, His purpose is to create His offspring who know good and evil.

But since mankind's sin spiritually separates us from God and God wants children, He created a pathway for mankind to be restored to Himself. To accomplish that purpose, God the Father sent Christ:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition, NO PERSON can be saved. We have all sinned and the penalty of sin is death (not eternal hell). The only solution is for mankind to be "born again" from the death we must pay. Our spiritually flawed vessel must be destroyed and made into a new spiritually perfect vessel.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

In our created spiritually flawed condition, we all reject God and cannot "choose" Him. There is nothing good within mankind. When you say that some people will accept Christ because of their ability to make a "free will" choice, you are wrong. No man has that ability. The only way we can "choose" Christ is for Christ to individually come to us and change us from within. He does this by giving us the Early Rain of the Spirit. When Christ does this work within us, we ALL fall to the ground and call Him "Lord" (just as Paul "typed" for us). NO EXCEPTIONS.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

But herein lays the GREAT mystery of the church (the called out ones). The Early Rain is only an "earnest amount" of the Holy Spirit. Because of such, we remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) and are still controlled by our carnal natures. Satan then comes to us and deceives us. Satan masquerades as an "angel of light (Christ) and causes us to accept his false truth (Mat 13:33, Wheat and Tares parable). Since we are deceived, we believe that we are receiving the truth of God. Christ explained this process below:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

Evil spirits represent Satan's false truth. Since we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". This worsened spiritual condition is called the Man of Sin.

After the Early Rain, our deadly head wound that came from the sword (Word of God) of Christ is healed. We then remain a part of the Seven-Headed Beast of Revelation. This Beast represents mankind in our spiritually flawed and carnally minded spiritual condition. At this point, we have truly "fallen away" and have returned to our own "works" for our salvation. This is the one and only sin that leads to our spiritual death. From this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance:

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief to differentiate us from why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why we are not. We falsely believe that we made the right "choice" from our supposed "free will". But in truth, we did not. It was Christ's work within us that caused us to accept Him as "Lord".

What I have stated above is part of the pathway that leads to destruction. We ALL MUST and WILL travel it.

Since a fallen away believer cannot be renewed by repentance, they will remain in this lost, spiritually worsened condition until either they physically die or Christ comes to them a second time. This is typed for us by Joshua and Caleb and Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years.

If a person has been "chosen from the foundation of the world", then Christ will not let them die in their sins. He will come again to them and give them the Latter Rain. This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room and it is the same event Paul "typed" for us when he received the Holy Spirit after being "in bed" for three days in Damascus. THIS IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST THAT IS COMMONLY TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. When Christ comes this second time, He comes as a thief in the night to destroy the Man of Sin whom we have become. When this happens, the path that leads to destruction is complete and the New Man who is born begins traveling the Narrow Path that leads to Life.

What I have stated above is a very abbreviated summary of how Christ saves one of His chosen Elect. They are the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. But Christ will NOT leave the rest of mankind to rot in the field. In the final age, at the end of the harvest season (Feast of Tabernacles), Christ will finish His work and bring in the full harvest of mankind. Then it will be testified to be true that ALL who died in Adam is the same ALL who will be made alive in Christ.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God does not fail and He never makes mistakes. What mankind is experiencing is how God reproduces Himself in His children. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people. Why? Because we are made spiritually blind and cannot know what God is doing until we receive the Latter Rain.

Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Mankind is not restored to the Father because of our "will". We are restored to the Father because it is His "will" for it to happen. God is not a respecter of persons. We will all be saved and we will all travel the same pathway for that salvation. The only difference is “when” we complete the path and God decided that from the foundation of the world to satisfy His own purposes.

One final point I want to make. End-time prophecy is teaching about the pathway that leads to conversion. All those End-time verses should be applied spiritually "within" us and not out in the world as they are commonly understood. When the Latter Rain falls on one of God's chosen Elect, it causes a spiritual earthquake with lightning and thunder and trumpets. Our worldly carnal paradigm is destroyed and we are given a new paradigm in Christ. At that point, the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood. We no longer receive the natural light of this world. We now receive the light of Christ (truth of God).

I could have included many scriptures/parables that further support and explain what I have stated above but then this post would have turned into a book.

I am willing to answer any specific questions you might have.

Joe

 

[eleos1954]

Dear eleos1954,
God is love and His love for us never fails - not even for one person. And yes, God is just and that is why it is imperative that He save us. He is responsible for creating us spiritually flawed and He has sent Christ to destroy that vessel and to make us into a spiritually perfect vessel.

Below I will further explain God's plan for mankind:

Man's spiritual condition we have from birth is "flawed". It was NOT a mistake by God. We were made that way on purpose so that our "flesh" controls us. That is why we are carnally minded and why Christ in a physical body was not. Christ was spiritually perfect. In other words, Christ overcame this carnal world and never sinned whereas, mankind cannot.

It is not man's fault that we sin. God is responsible for our spiritual condition that causes us to sin.

So why did God make us spiritually flawed?

Since this Creation is for God's purpose of producing His offspring (sons of God), He wants us to be "like" Him. And to be like Him, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". God even created Satan to be our tempter and deceiver so that we would have a fuller experience of evil.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster (Satan) to destroy.

In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition we ALL become sinful, evil creatures. That is why scripture says:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Mankind's carnal nature is "hatred" towards God. And because of such, we can't understand Him or want to seek His ways.

On the other hand, Satan was created to fed upon the dust of the ground (Gen 3:14). The "dust of the ground" represents our carnal nature and that is why Satan works to destroy and deceive mankind.

When Adam and Eve were created spiritually flawed, they quickly become carnally minded. God put Satan in the Garden to do his work of tempting Eve so that she would sin. Eve could not have possibly done anything else but fall to his temptations. Eve even displayed the three causes of sin BEFORE she sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

God, of course knew this and it was His plan all along for Adam and Eve to sin. And just as Adam and Eve sinned, so do all of their offspring. Mankind's sin was planned and caused by God so that we would experience evil. With God, "evil" is a tool that He uses for His good and righteous purposes. In this case, His purpose is to create His offspring who know good and evil.

But since mankind's sin spiritually separates us from God and God wants children, He created a pathway for mankind to be restored to Himself. To accomplish that purpose, God the Father sent Christ:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition, NO PERSON can be saved. We have all sinned and the penalty of sin is death (not eternal hell). The only solution is for mankind to be "born again" from the death we must pay. Our spiritually flawed vessel must be destroyed and made into a new spiritually perfect vessel.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

In our created spiritually flawed condition, we all reject God and cannot "choose" Him. There is nothing good within mankind. When you say that some people will accept Christ because of their ability to make a "free will" choice, you are wrong. No man has that ability. The only way we can "choose" Christ is for Christ to individually come to us and change us from within. He does this by giving us the Early Rain of the Spirit. When Christ does this work within us, we ALL fall to the ground and call Him "Lord" (just as Paul "typed" for us). NO EXCEPTIONS.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

But herein lays the GREAT mystery of the church (the called out ones). The Early Rain is only an "earnest amount" of the Holy Spirit. Because of such, we remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) and are still controlled by our carnal natures. Satan then comes to us and deceives us. Satan masquerades as an "angel of light (Christ) and causes us to accept his false truth (Mat 13:33, Wheat and Tares parable). Since we are deceived, we believe that we are receiving the truth of God. Christ explained this process below:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

Evil spirits represent Satan's false truth. Since we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". This worsened spiritual condition is called the Man of Sin.

After the Early Rain, our deadly head wound that came from the sword (Word of God) of Christ is healed. We then remain a part of the Seven-Headed Beast of Revelation. This Beast represents mankind in our spiritually flawed and carnally minded spiritual condition. At this point, we have truly "fallen away" and have returned to our own "works" for our salvation. This is the one and only sin that leads to our spiritual death. From this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance:

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief to differentiate us from why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why we are not. We falsely believe that we made the right "choice" from our supposed "free will". But in truth, we did not. It was Christ's work within us that caused us to accept Him as "Lord".

What I have stated above is part of the pathway that leads to destruction. We ALL MUST and WILL travel it.

Since a fallen away believer cannot be renewed by repentance, they will remain in this lost, spiritually worsened condition until either they physically die or Christ comes to them a second time. This is typed for us by Joshua and Caleb and Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years.

If a person has been "chosen from the foundation of the world", then Christ will not let them die in their sins. He will come again to them and give them the Latter Rain. This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room and it is the same event Paul "typed" for us when he received the Holy Spirit after being "in bed" for three days in Damascus. THIS IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST THAT IS COMMONLY TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. When Christ comes this second time, He comes as a thief in the night to destroy the Man of Sin whom we have become. When this happens, the path that leads to destruction is complete and the New Man who is born begins traveling the Narrow Path that leads to Life.

What I have stated above is a very abbreviated summary of how Christ saves one of His chosen Elect. They are the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. But Christ will NOT leave the rest of mankind to rot in the field. In the final age, at the end of the harvest season (Feast of Tabernacles), Christ will finish His work and bring in the full harvest of mankind. Then it will be testified to be true that ALL who died in Adam is the same ALL who will be made alive in Christ.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God does not fail and He never makes mistakes. What mankind is experiencing is how God reproduces Himself in His children. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people. Why? Because we are made spiritually blind and cannot know what God is doing until we receive the Latter Rain.

Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Mankind is not restored to the Father because of our "will". We are restored to the Father because it is His "will" for it to happen. God is not a respecter of persons. We will all be saved and we will all travel the same pathway for that salvation. The only difference is “when” we complete the path and God decided that from the foundation of the world to satisfy His own purposes.

One final point I want to make. End-time prophecy is teaching about the pathway that leads to conversion. All those End-time verses should be applied spiritually "within" us and not out in the world as they are commonly understood. When the Latter Rain falls on one of God's chosen Elect, it causes a spiritual earthquake with lightning and thunder and trumpets. Our worldly carnal paradigm is destroyed and we are given a new paradigm in Christ. At that point, the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood. We no longer receive the natural light of this world. We now receive the light of Christ (truth of God).

I could have included many scriptures/parables that further support and explain what I have stated above but then this post would have turned into a book.

I am willing to answer any specific questions you might have.

Joe

It is not man's fault that we sin. God is responsible for our spiritual condition that causes us to sin.

no ... adam and eve made a choice .... just like we all have choices. Blaming God for our spiritual condition is nonsense.

 

[FaithWillDo]

no ... adam and eve made a choice .... just like we all have choices. Blaming God for our spiritual condition is nonsense.

Dear eleos1954,
Scripture says that we were created flawed, subject to vanity:

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The flaw is not in our physical makeup. The flaw is spiritual. We were made spiritually weak and because of that spiritual flaw, our flesh rules over us making us carnally minded, haters of God and incapable of understanding God's ways:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

As I pointed out in my last post, even Eve displayed her carnal nature BEFORE she sinned. Sin did NOT create her carnal nature - her flawed spiritual condition created it.

And yes, Eve made a "choice" but it was not a "free will" choice. Our choices and actions (works) come from God:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

After God's purpose of making us in this flawed spiritual condition is satisfied, He will send Christ to each of us to make us into a new spiritually perfect vessel. That is why God the Father send Christ to the earth:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Christ is only coming to and saving the First Fruits of His harvest in this present age. They are His chosen Elect. Then in the final age, Christ will come to and save the remaining portion of mankind (at the end of the harvest season). No one will be left out. All who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ:

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If Christ fails to save even one person, it would be a sin (missing the mark). But that cannot happen. The word has gone out from the mouth of God and it will not return to Him void:

Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Do you have enough faith to believe what God says in these verses?

Joe

 

[eleos1954]

Dear eleos1954,
Scripture says that we were created flawed, subject to vanity:

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The flaw is not in our physical makeup. The flaw is spiritual. We were made spiritually weak and because of that spiritual flaw, our flesh rules over us making us carnally minded, haters of God and incapable of understanding God's ways:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

As I pointed out in my last post, even Eve displayed her carnal nature BEFORE she sinned. Sin did NOT create her carnal nature - her flawed spiritual condition created it.

And yes, Eve made a "choice" but it was not a "free will" choice. Our choices and actions (works) come from God:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

After God's purpose of making us in this flawed spiritual condition is satisfied, He will send Christ to each of us to make us into a new spiritually perfect vessel. That is why God the Father send Christ to the earth:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Christ is only coming to and saving the First Fruits of His harvest in this present age. They are His chosen Elect. Then in the final age, Christ will come to and save the remaining portion of mankind (at the end of the harvest season). No one will be left out. All who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ:

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If Christ fails to save even one person, it would be a sin (missing the mark). But that cannot happen. The word has gone out from the mouth of God and it will not return to Him void:

Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Do you have enough faith to believe what God says in these verses?

Joe

Every knee will indeed bow .... that does not mean all will be saved.

Matthew 7:21

Berean Study Bible
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Salvation is available through Christ for all .... but one needs to accept the gift of salvation .... God does not force himself on anyone.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Every knee will indeed bow .... that does not mean all will be saved.

Matthew 7:21

Berean Study Bible
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Salvation is available through Christ for all .... but one needs to accept the gift of salvation .... God does not force himself on anyone.

Dear eleos1954,

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So you believe that not all the people in the above verse who call Jesus "Lord" are saved??? How do they give glory to the Father then???

What about the verse below?

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

It clearly says that "no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit". In order for these people to call Jesus "Lord" and for their statement to give "glory to the Father", they MUST have the Holy Spirit. How can they have the Holy Spirit and not be saved?

Here are the verses you are referring to:

Matt 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that practice lawlessness.

The reason these believers above who call Jesus "Lord, Lord" are not saved is because they have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit and they still "practice lawlessness", meaning that they are still under the Law. Only when a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit do they come out from under the Law and are saved by faith. The Latter Rain is what the Apostles received in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost. Before that day, the apostles called Jesus "Lord" but they were still under the Law and not saved. So the question is, how can a believer who remains under the Law and who is trying to be acceptable to God by their own works, how can their statement of submission to Christ give glory to the Father? It can't. Christ was sent by the Father to save the world and if Christ has not completed that work within these unsaved people, there is no way that will give glory to the Father.

The solution for these unsaved people who remain under Law is for Christ to continue His work within them. Christ will eventually come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain. When will this happen? It will happen in the final age after they are resurrected to judgment. The reason they are not saved now is because they were not blessed to be saved in this present age as a First Fruit of Christ's harvest of mankind. They simply were not chosen. We cannot save ourselves. Only Christ has the power to destroy our spiritually flawed condition and give us a new birth with the Spirit of God.

Here is Christ's teaching on when a believer comes out from under the Law:

John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife. All who are “in Adam” will be “called” to be God’s wife.
From His wife, Christ will produce children of God.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak and spiritually blind. Because of these flaws, Adam soon became carnally minded (controlled by his flesh) and sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works (sin that leads to death) and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth, that act represents the time when Christ first writes His law in our hearts. This act by Christ is the time of the Early Rain when we are “called out” by Christ to be restored to the Father by faith. It is a spiritual event that happens "within" us. However, Satan quickly comes to us and deceives us because we remain spiritually blind. Because of his deception, we quickly fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works. This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The "stones" represent the Law and the Law is still accusing us.

Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law upon our hearts a second time (the Latter Rain, the second coming of Christ). It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law can no longer accuse us. After this change from Law to faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God. At this time, we start dwelling in heaven.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

In order for the above verses to be true, Christ must come to every person who died in Adam and give them the Early and Latter Rain.

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the Early and Latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Without Christ doing His work within them, they cannot be saved. But every man in his own order - the First Fruits in this age and then everyone else in the final age.

Have you ever read Revelation chapter 7?

It is a simple chapter to understand when one has been given eyes that can see. The chapter shows ALL mankind after they are saved. They are broken down into two groups. The first half of the chapter presents the First Fruits/Elect/the Few who are saved in this age. The second half of the chapter presents those who come out from the Lake of Fire judgment at the end of the final age. That whole final age is a time of Great Tribulation. But in the end, the lost come out from the Lake of Fire judgment and are saved - the number of them is too numerous to count.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Every knee will indeed bow .... that does not mean all will be saved.

Matthew 7:21

Berean Study Bible
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Salvation is available through Christ for all .... but one needs to accept the gift of salvation .... God does not force himself on anyone.

Dear eleos1954,
I forgot one more important point to make concerning this verse:

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This statement by God is a re-statement of this verse:

Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

It says "Look unto me, and be ye saved. Then it goes on to state that everyone will bow to the knee and "swear" (Jesus is Lord). The subject of these verses is about salvation, so clearly, this scripture is saying that all mankind will be saved and confess Jesus is Lord - and that confession gives God glory. Some of these people cannot be unsaved as you suggest.

Let me ask you a question as sincerely as I know how. This statement above from God, along with many others, clearly say that Christ will save all mankind before He finishes His work. Don't you think that God would have a plan to accomplish this great work before He would make such claims?

Keep in mind that God knows that a large portion of mankind was born BEFORE Christ and a large portion of people lived in places where they died without ever hearing about Christ plus all the unborn aborted babies and children who never heard. To make His statement true, Christ's work of saving mankind MUST continue after the resurrection of the dead occurs.

The analogy of Christ being a farmer is used in scripture. At this time, He is only bringing in the First Fruits of His harvest in this age.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

James 1:18 According to his own will begat he us by the word of truth, that we should be a certain first-fruits of his creatures.

This event is "typed" in scripture by the Feast of First Fruits.

Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

I know that it is a common belief that if a person is not saved before they die, they cannot ever be saved. However, scripture does not teach that false belief. After the First Fruits are harvested, the remaining crop will be harvested at the end of the year. This second harvest is celebrated by the Feast of Ingathering/Tabernacles. This feast "types" the full harvest of mankind that occurs at the end of the final age and that is why Christ said this:

John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast (Tabernacles), Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Why do you believe that Christ only saves the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind? What about the end of the harvest season? Will not Christ bring in a full harvest of mankind?

Joe

 

[eleos1954]

Dear eleos1954,
I forgot one more important point to make concerning this verse:

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This statement by God is a re-statement of this verse:

Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

It says "Look unto me, and be ye saved. Then it goes on to state that everyone will bow to the knee and "swear" (Jesus is Lord). The subject of these verses is about salvation, so clearly, this scripture is saying that all mankind will be saved and confess Jesus is Lord - and that confession gives God glory. Some of these people cannot be unsaved as you suggest.

Let me ask you a question as sincerely as I know how. This statement above from God, along with many others, clearly say that Christ will save all mankind before He finishes His work. Don't you think that God would have a plan to accomplish this great work before He would make such claims?

Keep in mind that God knows that a large portion of mankind was born BEFORE Christ and a large portion of people lived in places where they died without ever hearing about Christ plus all the unborn aborted babies and children who never heard. To make His statement true, Christ's work of saving mankind MUST continue after the resurrection of the dead occurs.

The analogy of Christ being a farmer is used in scripture. At this time, He is only bringing in the First Fruits of His harvest in this age.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

James 1:18 According to his own will begat he us by the word of truth, that we should be a certain first-fruits of his creatures.

This event is "typed" in scripture by the Feast of First Fruits.

Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

I know that it is a common belief that if a person is not saved before they die, they cannot ever be saved. However, scripture does not teach that false belief. After the First Fruits are harvested, the remaining crop will be harvested at the end of the year. This second harvest is celebrated by the Feast of Ingathering/Tabernacles. This feast "types" the full harvest of mankind that occurs at the end of the final age and that is why Christ said this:

John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast (Tabernacles), Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Why do you believe that Christ only saves the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind? What about the end of the harvest season? Will not Christ bring in a full harvest of mankind?

Joe

There are 2 resurrections .... the first when Jesus returns .... that is of the saved .... the 2nd occurs later (that of the condemned).

The Bible teaches two different resurrections. Jesus spoke of one resurrection for those who are saved, and another resurrection for those who are lost.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29 NKJV

This means everyone who has died will come back to life again. Some for eternity, and others long enough to see their condemnation is just, and then to die for eternity.

Paul was aware of separate resurrections for the saved and unsaved when he wrote that when Christ comes the saved will rise first.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 NKJV

What is it that you do not understand about condemnation?

Keep in mind that God knows that a large portion of mankind was born BEFORE Christ and a large portion of people lived in places where they died without ever hearing about Christ plus all the unborn aborted babies and children who never heard.

This is true .... however mankind was created in the image of God (originally perfect in every way .... there is a vestige of that image that remains within each of us .... we are without excuse. There will indeed be people saved that never "heard the gospel" as the the Holy Spirit has been working in the hearts of mankind since the beginning. We are each responsible for responding to the Holy Spirt (or not) who gently works in the hearts of mankind and always has. Concerning the unborn, babies, children .... they are innocent as they had no ability to acquire knowledge. We are responsible for what we know ... not what we do not know.

Romans 1

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

Only God knows the heart

Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart.

Jesus is the firstfruits

1 Corinthians

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

 

[hedrick]

Jesus reference to two resurrections doesn’t necessarily mean they are at different times, just that the results are different.

 

[eleos1954]

Jesus reference to two resurrections doesn’t necessarily mean they are at different times, just that the results are different.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 NKJV

The saved will then judge the unsaved for a thousand years.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them….. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power…Revelation 20:4-6 NKJV

The saved only die once. When they are resurrected in the first resurrection they will live eternally. They will not die a second time. But when the unsaved are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, Satan will tempt them to try and destroy the New Jerusalem, and that is when the fire will come down from God and destroy them.