What did God mean?

[chunkofcoal]

Maybe He called them "their" feasts because He called the people "rulers of Sodom" and "people of Gomorrah" (verse 10)?

Good question about the other nations in Jerusalem and the term Feast of the Jews - Romans had their own feasts.

Like I said on another thread, I still think John wasn't necessarily just writing to the Jews. He did write about this:
Joh 12:20-22 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: (21) The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. (22) Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.

And this:
Joh 11:49-52 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, (50) Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. (51) And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; (52) And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

 

[Heber Book List]

Could it be that by the time of the NT writers, there were so many other nations in Jerusalem, that even the Jews started to identify God's feasts as theirs.

John 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

There were lots of Passovers in NT times. There were, of course, the Feasts of the Samaritans, and the Feasts of the orthodox (Temple) Jews, no doubt the Essenes held theirs, too etc etc

 

[Open Heart]

The thread posters have come to the conclusion that these feasts were indeed His feasts just improperly kept. SOOOOOO .. why does God state that they were their feasts and not His? Is this why the Bible calls it the feasts of the Jews?

For the same reason that my granddaughter's Birthday Party is HER party and not mine. I declare that we're gonna have a party. But it's for her benefit.

 

[pat34lee]

Could it be that by the time of the NT writers, there were so many other nations in Jerusalem, that even the Jews started to identify God's feasts as theirs.

John 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

More likely that John was tampered with several times
by the early church, who no longer kept the appointed
times. One among many blasphemies they are guilty of.

 

[visionary]

More likely that John was tampered with several times
by the early church, who no longer kept the appointed
times. One among many blasphemies they are guilty of.

Some translator/copyist, thought they were doing God a favor by adding, " the passover, A FEAST OF THE JEWS... I can see that happening... unfortunately... their copy is the "oldest".. the only remaining copy, the copy that is used for centuries to translate from... etc. But then how about the manuscripts found in the cave... aren't they the oldest.??

 

[Heber Book List]

Some translator/copyist, thought they were doing God a favor by adding, " the passover, A FEAST OF THE JEWS... I can see that happening... unfortunately... their copy is the "oldest".. the only remaining copy, the copy that is used for centuries to translate from... etc. But then how about the manuscripts found in the cave... aren't they the oldest.??

To differentiate between the true Jews (the Judaisers) and their Temple Passover, and the various sects that did not accept Temple worship and held their own Passover. As I have said, there were a number of Passovers in the times of the Christian Testament.

Josephus refers to Gentiles celebrating the Feasts of the Hebrews, 'in idleness and pleasure'

 

[visionary]

To differentiate between the true Jews (the Judaisers) and their Temple Passover, and the various sects that did not accept Temple worship and held their own Passover. As I have said, there were a number of Passovers in the times of the Christian Testament.

Josephus refers to Gentiles celebrating the Feasts of the Hebrews, 'in idleness and pleasure'

Is there not any writers of that era who wrote "God's Feasts" and give credit to God for the feasts?

 

[Ken Rank]

What does this mean?

Is 1:14 “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

Were they a substitute for God's appointed times, or were they a very bad version of God's appointed times? Why is God "bearing" "Your" appointed times?

I am sure this has been answered but it is quicker for me to write this than read all the replies.

The sacrifices were heart based... so we have God saying in the Psalms, "the sacrifices of the Lord are a broken spirit and contrite heart." What does this mean? It means that when one sinned and brought an offering, the heart of the sinner should be broken and contrite because their actions are causing the death of the animal. That "sweet aroma" that came up to the nostrils of the Lord... not the smell of burning flesh (that is a pagan idea) but rather the smell of the broken and contrite heart because the sinner had the right heart condition when they made the offering.

The tie to Isaiah 1:14 is simple... the heart wasn't in it. God created the appointed times... He even set the markers in place to determine them on the 4th day (Genesis 1:14.... the word for "seasons" is moedim, the word we would translate as feasts) so why would He hate them? He wouldn't, He hated the heart of the people who "went through the motions" having checked their heart for Him at the door.

 

[Heber Book List]

I am sure this has been answered but it is quicker for me to write this than read all the replies.

The sacrifices were heart based... so we have God saying in the Psalms, "the sacrifices of the Lord are a broken spirit and contrite heart." What does this mean? It means that when one sinned and brought an offering, the heart of the sinner should be broken and contrite because their actions are causing the death of the animal. That "sweet aroma" that came up to the nostrils of the Lord... not the smell of burning flesh (that is a pagan idea) but rather the smell of the broken and contrite heart because the sinner had the right heart condition when they made the offering.

The tie to Isaiah 1:14 is simple... the heart wasn't in it. God created the appointed times... He even set the markers in place to determine them on the 4th day (Genesis 1:14.... the word for "seasons" is moedim, the word we would translate as feasts) so why would He hate them? He wouldn't, He hated the heart of the people who "went through the motions" having checked their heart for Him at the door.

Yep - that's what we've been saying!

 

[Open Heart]

Could it be that by the time of the NT writers, there were so many other nations in Jerusalem, that even the Jews started to identify God's feasts as theirs.

John 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

The verse speaks for itself. It is not the Jews speaking here, but God himself, through the Scriptures, as written by the Apostle John.

 

[Open Heart]

Some translator/copyist, thought they were doing God a favor by adding, " the passover, A FEAST OF THE JEWS... I can see that happening... unfortunately... their copy is the "oldest".. the only remaining copy, the copy that is used for centuries to translate from... etc. But then how about the manuscripts found in the cave... aren't they the oldest.??

I see. The way you get around what God's word says is to say, "Oh, it's a mistake. Someone must have added this at a later time." (Even though you have not a shred of evidence to that effect.) This is how many people starts making excuses about God's word, by saying that it contains errors.

 

[Ken Rank]

The verse speaks for itself. It is not the Jews speaking here, but God himself, through the Scriptures, as written by the Apostle John.

The Jews are not all of Israel... but they were, for many hundreds of years, the only ones keeping the Feasts. So culturally, all the Feasts were known as Jewish Feasts at that time. When you factor that in along with God inspiring but not removing the individuality of the writer... then God can inspire somebody to write and yet the writer will still uses phrases and idioms that are common to his audience and time period. John knows the Feasts were for ALL of Israel, and he also knows that Israel is more than just the Jews... but he was writing to a people using terms they understood.

The Feasts are specifically called, "The Feasts of YHWH" in Lev. 23.

 

[pat34lee]

I see. The way you get around what God's word says is to say, "Oh, it's a mistake. Someone must have added this at a later time." (Even though you have not a shred of evidence to that effect.) This is how many people starts making excuses about God's word, by saying that it contains errors.

When there is a glaring error, it's hard to deny without
stretching credibility to its limits. "Feast of the Jews"
is not the same as "Feasts of YHWH" no matter who
says it. And John adds a feast and changes one in order
to accommodate a 3 1/2 year ministry of Yeshua, which
didn't happen. It was just over a year from his baptism
to Pentecost.

Do people really think that the disciples could have lived
with him for over three years? Their actions and questions
seem more like very early stages of being taught.

 

[Ken Rank]

When there is a glaring error, it's hard to deny without
stretching credibility to its limits. "Feast of the Jews"
is not the same as "Feasts of YHWH" no matter who
says it. And John adds a feast and changes one in order
to accommodate a 3 1/2 year ministry of Yeshua, which
didn't happen. It was just over a year from his baptism
to Pentecost.

Do people really think that the disciples could have lived
with him for over three years? Their actions and questions
seem more like very early stages of being taught.

That is interesting. Passover is listed among those in Lev. 23 and called a feast of YHWH and you are saying that Passover being called a feast of the Jews in the NT is a different Feast both called 'Passover?' Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Open Heart]

"Feast of the Jews"
is not the same as "Feasts of YHWH" no matter who
says it.

It certainly can be. However, I am unable to discuss this as it would violate the SOP.

 

[Open Heart]

The Jews are not all of Israel

All Jews are part of Israel, except certain exceptions: there are some commandments that have as the penalty that the Jew would be cut off from the People. And even that is debated.

When Paul talks about Jews who are not true Jews, he is referring to those who have fallen far from the tree. Perhaps they care so little for our covenant that they go out and eat a big ol' shrimp salad in public. Maybe they go through the motions, but the truth is that what they care about is business and God has no place in their lives. They have no kevanah. Paul is not speaking literally. They are still Jews. Paul is simply pointing out that they have missed the point of what it means to live as a Jew.

 

[Open Heart]

John knows the Feasts were for ALL of Israel

Of course they were for all B'nei Yisrael. That is what "Jews" refers to.

 

[pat34lee]

That is interesting. Passover is listed among those in Lev. 23 and called a feast of YHWH and you are saying that Passover being called a feast of the Jews in the NT is a different Feast both called 'Passover?' Or am I misunderstanding you?

Two errors.
Feast of the Jews instead of feasts of Yahweh.
Passover where it shouldn't be. Among others.
A lamb is only a lamb for the first year.

If you read the gospels thinking to see three and a half
years, you will find a few days or a week, then gaps of
up to half a year. If you understand he taught basically
from one Passover to the next and was crucified, then
they cover most of the year nicely. Except for a few
glaring errors in John.

Chart of the 70 weeks
Chart of Seventy Weeks Ministry

70 weeks in John
Yeshua’s 70-Week Ministry

 

[pat34lee]

It certainly can be. However, I am unable to discuss this as it would violate the SOP.

I don't think that gets into a core belief of Messianics,
Christians or Jews. Please correct me if it does.

 

[Ken Rank]

Two errors.
Feast of the Jews instead of feasts of Yahweh.
Passover where it shouldn't be. Among others.
A lamb is only a lamb for the first year.

If you read the gospels thinking to see three and a half
years, you will find a few days or a week, then gaps of
up to half a year. If you understand he taught basically
from one Passover to the next and was crucified, then
they cover most of the year nicely. Except for a few
glaring errors in John.

Chart of the 70 weeks
Chart of Seventy Weeks Ministry

70 weeks in John
Yeshua’s 70-Week Ministry

Why not just say, "Ken, I have a disagreement" and then share your thoughts? Don't you think I might be more inclined to hear you if you presented it kindly rather than, "Ken, you're in error?" I tune out when somebody starts that way... I just don't care because there is an sense of superiority and no room left for any give and take.