What de-conversion feels like

[sc4s2cg]

Believe it or not, Christians are required to be responsible too *gasp*!

YOU CANT BE SERIOUS?!

No, she is. Christians have responsibilities as well.

G-d bless,
sc

 

[Rae]

I think many Christians assume the de-convert's feeling are like those of a lost person.

--But some of us deconverts DID feel like that upon deconversion. Most of the ones I've met have, actually. I was on an ex-fundy list for a long time. Major pain and lost feelings on there, I guarantee you.

 

[HappyBackslider]

I think they come from mans common desire to know God but they are man made religions and have no real value.

So other than the obvious fact that you are a Christian probably because you grew up in a predominantly Christian country (I'm assuming) - what are the attributes of Christianity that distinguish it from other man-made religions? When I look at Christianity and see the stories of creation in 6 days (against all scientific evidence), talking donkeys, a boat built to carry all species, sticks turning into snakes -- these stories aren't so different from some of those man-made religions you dismiss.

And I don't agree with the 'no value' statement. I've meet many Buddhists, for example, who are show as much or more sense of purpose, peace and love in their loves as any Christian as I ever met. I don't see too many Christian leaders like the Dalai Lamai for instance trying to make a real difference in promoting peace in the world.

 

[Lycaenidae]

You were religious but you were never truly saved. You need to have a One-on-one relationship with the One True God, Jesus Christ. You can't just go to church and say, "I'm a Christian."

Don't feel bad though. There are lots of people like you.

True Scotsman fallacy.

 

[StainedClassKing]

What I said stands whether one takes the Garden of Eden story literally or not. If it is not literal, then it is figurative, a lesson.

And that is the way that I take. The thing is I do not pretend to know the exact correct way to interpret the figurative meaning of the story.

I'm not interested in debating with you whether or not Genesis is literal.

That might actually be a worthy debate; whether or not it was meant to be interpretted as literal or not. But as for whether or not it actually happened, that isn't a worthy debate.

When I responded on this thread with my allusion to the Fall, you were not even involved in the conversation. I was responding to people who did experience a sense of freedom.

I did experience a sense of freedom but not the kind of freedom you are talking about.

And I don't mean this as a flame, but as a nonbeliever, I don't think you know anything about the real truths of the universe in which we live.

Maybe you're right but that statement doesn't actually address what I posted. I said

Thirdly, and I don't mean this as a flame, but from what you have written here [spelling corrected ], I see no indication at all that your conversion, either to or from Christianity, had anything at all to do with trying to find out the real truths of the universe in which we live

Whether or not I know anything about the truths of the universe has nothing to do with this. The real issue being addressed is why do you believe what you believe? Is it because it is the result of a real and honest attempt to learn how things are? Or is it because it suits you?

Sorry, I don't believe the human brain is that all-fired important.

This sounds like an admission that you believe when you want to because you want to and you disbelieve(d) when you wanted to because it suited you at that particular time. If learning about the world around us and seeing what the evidence supports is not the way to find the truth, then how do you think one does find the truth?

 

[TheListener]

So other than the obvious fact that you are a Christian probably because you grew up in a predominantly Christian country (I'm assuming) - what are the attributes of Christianity that distinguish it from other man-made religions? When I look at Christianity and see the stories of creation in 6 days (against all scientific evidence), talking donkeys, a boat built to carry all species, sticks turning into snakes -- these stories aren't so different from some of those man-made religions you dismiss.

And I don't agree with the 'no value' statement. I've meet many Buddhists, for example, who are show as much or more sense of purpose, peace and love in their loves as any Christian as I ever met. I don't see too many Christian leaders like the Dalai Lamai for instance trying to make a real difference in promoting peace in the world.

For starters, I grew up in two different countries, one was a pagan country with some Christian influence and one was a pagan country with some muslim influence. I was fairly sheltered from both sides for the majority of the time and I was certainly *not* raised a Christian. I'm the only Christian in my extended family. So you can rule that assumption out.

I am agnostic about the 6 day theory for Biblical reasons so you can rule out sheer stupidity as well.

If you can honestly say to me that Christianity is no different than other religions you are not at a level of knowledge to be discussing the issue about any of the world religions. No offense.

 

[StainedClassKing]

actually, my conversion was very subtle and gradual too.

but here's a question for apostates: do you think that maybe this relief could be because you left behind a life of pointless rituals and often supression found in most religion?

I think that is a valid question but in my case, the answer is no. I grew up in protestant charismatic church that didn't involve harldy any rituals at all. Personally, I think that the rituals that catholicism and other religions offer do serve a purpose because they help ground people and help them to identify with a culture. Hispanics and Chinese have lots of rituals and customs that have nothing to do with religion but with just being Hispanic or being Chinese. It's good because it helps give them something to identify with and ground them.

I experienced a sense of relief because the world became knowable. As a Christian, I always felt that I was at the mercy of forces that I had no way to understand. It was like trying to take a math test using some alien script that I had no way to decode. When things went wrong, I didn't know if was because God was punishing me, if God was testing me, building my faith, if I was being attacked by the devil, etc., or if it was due to natural causes, random "bad luck." And I had no way of finding out.

the reason i ask is because i grew up in a christian home and was a very devout follower of the religion, and i felt extreme joy and relaxation when i truly found the god behind the religion i pointlessly followed.

In a sense, now I feel like I'm finally starting to "find god" but I wouldn't equate my own experience with what Christians experience.

 

[truthmonger89]

If you can honestly say to me that Christianity is no different than other religions you are not at a level of knowledge to be discussing the issue about any of the world religions. No offense.

And if you are not willing to consider the possibility that Christianity is no different than all those other false religions, then you are being unreasonable. No offense, but how can anybody take you seriously if you can't admit that you might be wrong?

I believe very strongly that there are space aliens on other planets. I have never seen a space alien, and the only thing that leads me to believe they exist is the fact that other planets exist, but other planets are not proof of space aliens. You might say I have faith that aliens exist. But the crucial difference between my faith in space aliens and your faith in God is that I can admit that I might be completely and totally wrong, and if that turned out to be the case it wouldn't bother me a bit.

 

[TheListener]

We had this discussion before... You forget things easily...

 

[Ganymede]

...It is distressing to realise that there is no omnipotent God in charge of things - making sure nothing catastrophic happens. I now feel very exposed and vulnerable. Any of my friends or family could suffer or die at any moment for no good reason. The universe is brutally arbitrary. I still havent come to terms with this.

Which is exactly why religious belief persists - because [egotistical] humans struggle to come to terms with their own unimportance in the grand scheme of things and seek to mitigate their vulnerability by having a powerful, loving and protecting God on their side.

 

[Mythunderstood]

this is how my deconversion process took place: I began earlier in my twenties to abandon one practice after another, such as regular Bible-reading, then abstaining from sexual activity, then abstaining from intoxicating substances, then church attendance, then prayer.... until the Lord seemed to be far away. Who moved? He didn't. At the same time I started to look into Taoism and then atheistic existentialism and later a form of shamanism. I reasoned that one of these couldn't possibly be true to the exclusion of the others, unless it be atheism - because of all the contradictions between one religion and another. I'll never forget standing in my then-best-friend's living room, listening to his brand new copy of "Your Own Personal Jesus" (DePeche Mode), and he said, "You don't believe anymore, do you?" To which I replied, "Nope." Suddenly I felt so free to just be myself, much like the person in the quote expressed. But I now know that I was deluded, because the absence of the Lord in my life later became a source of great sadness. And I found that I could not believe. I wrote a song during that period expressing my loss of "simple belief." The Lord heard that heart-cry, and He began to woo me back. It took years, but now I pray that I will never be so deceived again. There is nothing so sustaining than the voice of the Shepherd.

About your deconversion from christianity to atheism......what made you realize that religion was a man-made construct and that there were no such thing as god/s? Secondly, after coming to this conclusion, what evidence convinced you yet again that god was suddenly real and the bible stories were real?

 

[benjdm]

The universe is brutally arbitrary. I still havent come to terms with this.

I hear that. It took me a while to accept it, even with no de-conversion.

 

[Mythunderstood]

Well it works well for me because I have no intention of deconverting. I've looked at both sides of the coin, fairly (IMHO), and I think to deconvert it would be a pretty big mistake on my behalf.

How can an honest belief be a "mistake"? You don't consciously choose a "belief". Belief is based on conclusions reached based on your examination and interpretation of information presented to you. If you no longer believed in god in your heart, wouldn't it be a lie to call yourself a christian?

 

[TheListener]

How can an honest belief be a "mistake"? You don't consciously choose a "belief". Belief is based on conclusions reached based on your examination and interpretation of information presented to you. If you no longer believed in god in your heart, wouldn't it be a lie to call yourself a christian?

Two people can look at the same thing and see different things. They are not necessarily both right.

 

[gwenmead]

but here's a question for apostates: do you think that maybe this relief could be because you left behind a life of pointless rituals and often supression found in most religion? the reason i ask is because i grew up in a christian home and was a very devout follower of the religion, and i felt extreme joy and relaxation when i truly found the god behind the religion i pointlessly followed.

I think that there are a lot of reasons why a sense of relief might happen for an apostate, and probably for some, leaving pointless rituals and suppression certainly plays a part. That kind of thing can definitely be stifling, and to escape from it would bring relief.

I might add, though, that there are really lots of reasons why people go apostate; and I have yet to meet any ex-Christian who left the fold for a single reason or event. My own experience involved several different interconnected reasons. I can say that suppression of a kind was part of it too - but I hope no one would think that I left Christianity because of suppression alone. There was much more to it than that.

Looking at stories of conversion and de-conversion, it seems to me overall that finding the path to god (or a lack thereof) is at heart a similar process for a lot of people - kind of like everyone is trying to find their bliss, find joy and peace, and even though people end up at different places, it's still a process - often subtle, often takes awhile, often is fraught with conflict, but hopefully ends in tranquility.

 

[truthmonger89]

We had this discussion before... You forget things easily...

Yes, I know. But when you have the audacity to tell people they don't have enough knowledge to discuss other religions which are by your own admission worthless, and then argue as if your religion is the absolute undeniable truth, I think it's worth reminding you at this point that by your own admission Christianity might be just as worthless.

 

[Mythunderstood]

Two people can look at the same thing and see different things. They are not necessarily both right.

Of course! Whatever a particular individual believes is what they believe to be true. But you cannot force a belief, or maintain a belief by sheer "will." No matter how much I would like to believe in Santa, I cannot will myself into actually believing he exists.

 

[TheListener]

Yes, I know. But when you have the audacity to tell people they don't have enough knowledge to discuss other religions which are by your own admission worthless, and then argue as if your religion is the absolute undeniable truth, I think it's worth reminding you at this point that by your own admission Christianity might be just as worthless.

I said I might be wrong if I am paranoid dellusional borderline schitzophrenic.

No offense to anyone.

For me to say other religions are pointless is only because I am following what the Bible says. Can't really blame me for that either.

And IMHO for anyone to compare a religion founded by God to a religion founded by man (or a man claiming to be God's messenger without any accountabiliity) shows a lack of care for what each religion claims.

Apologies if I offended anyone.

 

[TheListener]

Of course! Whatever a particular individual believes is what they believe to be true. But you cannot force a belief, or maintain a belief by sheer "will." No matter how much I would like to believe in Santa, I cannot will myself into actually believing he exists.

I don't believe in Santa because there is insufficient evidence for his existence and scientific reasons why he probably doesn't exist.

I believe in God because there is sufficient evidence for his existence with enough scientific backup.

God may have given us eyewitnesses to Jesus 2000 years ago but today we have science to see the wonders of God and His creation.

But you can look at science and choose to say "I don't know how this happened" and then say "God doesn't exist".

That is what I mean by 2 people looking at the same thing but seeing different things.

 

[truthmonger89]

I said I might be wrong if I am paranoid dellusional borderline schitzophrenic.

If the only way you can admit that you might be wrong is if you went insane, that's as good as saying you could never admit that you might be wrong, because what's the point of trying to have a serious discussion with an insane person? How can I take you seriously if you, as a rational, honest, reasonable, and sane person are totally unwilling to even consider the possibility that you might be wrong?