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What day is the Sabbath?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by thetruthseeker, Sep 26, 2002.

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  1. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi GodsWordisTrue,

    First I'd like to say that you chose a very nice name. I hope that you truly believe that all of Jesus' word is true, including the word about the Sabbath. I do. Please remember this: Matthew 7:21-23

    The Bible does teach that the Sabbath (Saturday observance) is a sign (seal, mark) between Himself and His true people.

    To truly understand what the "Mark of the Beast" is, we must understand what the "Seal (Mark) of God" is.

    The mark of the beast is actually the opposite of the mark (seal) of God. However, if we receive the seal of God then we don't have to worry about the mark of the beast.


    Let's look at a desciption of the mark of the beast.

    Revelation 13:16-18 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or [U]in their foreheads[/U]: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    Now, let's look at a description of the mark of God.

    Deuteronomy 11:13,18
    And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
    ...
    Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.


    What is between our eyes? Yes, our foreheads--our minds, our choice. You can also find this thought in Deuteronomy 6:5,8.

    Revelation 13:16 mirrors Deuteronomy 11:18. However, Revelation 13:16 is talking about the mark of the beast and Deuteronomy is talking about the mark of God.

    The word "mark" and "sign" mean the same thing.

    The original Greek for the word "mark" in Revelation 13:16 is "charagma". This means "mark."

    The original Hebrew for the word "sign" in Deuteronomy 11:18 is "owth." This means "mark or seal."

    The word of God never changes.

    Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    The mark (sign or seal) of God is clearly the keeping of His 10 Commandments throught the Holy Spirit--because we love Him with all our heart, mind and soul. However, it get's more interesting than this. It gets deeper.

    Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

    Ezekiel 20:20 And hollow my sabbaths and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye my know that I am the Lord your God.

    Whereas, loving Jesus with all our hearts by the keeping of the 10 Commandments of Jesus' is His mark generally, the keeping of the Sabbath (Saturday) is the very mark(sign or seal) of Jesus, specifically.

    Now if the keeping of Jesus' 10 Commandments, specifically the Sabbath (Saturday), is the Mark (sign, seal) of God, what is the Mark of the Beast? The Mark of the beast is the very opposite. It is the betrayal of Jesus by choosing (the forhead, the mind) to live in iniquity, generally, and not keeping the Sabbath, specifically (this is what the Sunday sanctity does).

    No one, as of now, has received the mark for Sunday keeping (in place of Sabbath keeping or ignoring the Sabbath). However, this issue will become very important in these last days.

    Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgement is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters

    Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hollowed it.

    Let us all aim for the seal (sign, mark) of Jesus. Let us obey all of His word--through the Spirit.

    Thanks for replying.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  2. repentandbelieve

    repentandbelieve Senior Veteran

    +77
    Christian
    From Exodus 16:26 it's clear that the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week.(Saturday). From Exodus 16:23 we can see that the children of Israel kept the Sabbath before they recieved the 10 commandments from God in Exodus chapter 20.

    Apparently keeping the Sabbath was important to Jesus. Jesus kept the Sabbath on the 7th day, keeping with Jewish tradition. Yet Jesus was acused by the Jews as being a "Sabbath Breaker" because the way that He observed the sabbath was not in accordance with their tradition.

    My question is: How should we as Christians under the new covenant, observe the Sabbath?. What is unacceptable, in Gods eyes, for us to do on the Sabbath.

    Jesus said in Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. How much freedom or discretion does this give us in how we should observe the Sabbath?
     
  3. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
    +0
    Hi,
    Christ came to 'magnify' His Law. All of it. Hate is murder, lust of a woman or man is adultery of the heart. (they would do the act in its last stage if allowed. See Gen. 6:3)

    Of the Sabbath, He told us that it is 'lawful' to do good on the Sabbath day.

    Check out Isaiah 58:6-14. And verse 13 tells about keeping His Sabbath in its purity. You just might read on in the next couple of verses of chapter 59, verse 1 & 2? And remember that man added these chapters & numbers. Yet, they follow the Sabbath requirements.

    Some talk about the Sabbath rest being 'in Christ'. Yet, they do not keep His requirements of no work according to His commandment. Still they talk of loving Him? Try 1 Jn. 2:4 for the ones who 'understand' this conviction & do as did Cain.

    And yes, no law keeping saves anyone. Yet, it is not possible to be saved by disobeying Christ's commandments. If one truely LOVES HIM! Even conversion is not possible if one has knowledge before hand! See Acts 5:32. Unless being given the Holy Ghost is not needed in the Born Again ones? And that is a foolish thought.

    P/N/B/
     
  4. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    "With the exception of the Adventist denomination" Only those? I worship right across the street from the SDA on the same day, but will I be tested too?
     
  5. seangoh

    seangoh Veteran

    +37
    SDA
    Single
    Hmm....let me expand on that point on his behalf. I'm an SDA BTW.
    I recall these 2 texts:


    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matt 24:24

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:4

    Therefore, until the great day of the Lord which is the second coming, Satan will be working very hard to deceive people and tempting all people. SDAs are not exempted from this too. I believe many SDAs will leave the Church at some time or another and many will believe that the Sabbath is a sign of Worship of our Creator God and start worshiping on that day like you do.

    Cheers!
     
  6. repentandbelieve

    repentandbelieve Senior Veteran

    +77
    Christian
    I'm a police officerand my duty is to protect and serve the public. Because criminals do not obey the Sabbath it is necessary for me to work on the Sabbath.
    I recognize the Sabbath as being the period of time from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday but am not able to observe it to the lettersince criminals seem to prefer Fridays and Saturdays to do their crimes.
     
  7. brotherjim

    brotherjim Well-Known Member

    996
    +35
    Christian
    --------------

    Dear repentandbelieve,

    (Btw, great username!)

    As with other "legalistic" commandments, the NT church is called to obey the spirit of the law, and not the letter of it.

    The Law of Love, as both explained and exemplified by the Apostle Paul, should be what dictates our practices.

    Some of us who are His have the understanding we are free in Christ from observing the Sabbath in a ritualistic way. But not all have this understanding. So, for the sake of their tender conscience, we are to lay aside our liberties for the sake of others.

    Those in the world, too, have the self-righteous understanding that Christians are to observe the Sabbath according to the way it's thought of in the world. Again the Law of Love commands us to be all things to all people, in the hope some might be saved. If our unsaved neighbors see us washing our cars and shopping at the malls and what have you, on the Sabbath, this greatly waters down our witness to them as believers.

    Those "good" people in the world, who are without Christ, are affected by their generally perceived observations of the church. When Christians are openly committing adultery and divorcing and cheating on taxes and serving their materialism on the Sabbath, the self-righteous unbeliever will also dilute their fleshly good works, being justified by the behavior of the church. This then has a snowballing affect, which we see today as stores opening earlier Sunday mornings. Whereas car sales, at least here in PA, are unlawful on Sunday, watch and see how they too will change.

    I can remember a few decades ago how the whole world here in the states was reverant of Sunday. The unbeliever had the continually present witness of the church this one day every week. Each Sunday their consciousness would in some degree have to consider the existance of God and the behavior of those who claimed to be His children. Such has been all but swept under the rug.

    When I applied for my last worldly job, I told them during the interview that I was a born-again Christian and could not work Sundays. Now you likely know, as did I, the liberty of Christ did not prevent me from working Sundays. And for me, this was a job whose business was great on a Sunday. Everyone worked, for the most part, on Sunday's there but me. And I was respected as a believer for it. Did anyone get saved as a result? No, not to my knowledge. But credited to my heavenly account was the fact I walked in unconditional Love, living for the conscience of and witness to others. The earthly results of that are up to God. I say this not to boast - or secondarily perhaps to boast of the Lord, but as an example of the principle. And each week when these people would hand out Sunday's work, and have to recall I didn't work then, they were reminded of a Living God and their failure at living their life in obedience to Him.

    Insofar as Sunday vs. Saturday, I do not see the Lord as caring. Again, it's the spirit of resting from work, and thankfully meditating upon the things of the Lord for the day, which is desired/commanded (you choose). So since the evangelical church, and the world, has evolved to observe this day on Sunday, so should we continue to do so. Again, the Law of Love dictates that we observe it according to the conscience of others. (While there are a small faction who are offended because they believe the Sabbath to be Saturday, this is far outweighed by nearly all in the world, and most in the church, who believe otherwise. And for those who are "enlightened" as to Saturday being the Sabbath, this is a good opportunity to explain the Gospel of Christ Jesus and both the Law of Liberty and the Law of Love to them.)

    We have here where I live a Subaru car dealer. He's a 7th day - or whatever they are who observe Saturday as the Sabbath - and has always kept his dealership closed on Saturdays. Now for those who don't know, Saturday is the biggest car sales day of the week (at least it was years ago when I did it). His dealership is  consistently one of the top three sales producers in the nation - many times number one I'm told. And this is not a major metropolitan area, and with two other Subaru dealers within 25 miles or less. You tell me how this is so. What a tremendous witness he must be to the thousands who come to shop for a car on Saturdays, only to later find out they're closed because the owner is a Christian.

    bro. jim
     
  8. seangoh

    seangoh Veteran

    +37
    SDA
    Single
    repentandbelieve, thanks for your dilemna. The Sabbath is a time of spiritual reflection on our Great God. Perhaps before you enter this day, you can memorize some verses so that as you chase Criminals on the Sabbath, you can recall them in your mind. The Lord has been chasing us from Adam and Eve's time to now and He will continue to chase us sinners.

    brotherjim, Thanks for your insight and testimony. I would like to share my thoughts based on a statement u made.

    You are very right in saying that it's the spirit of the law that matters. In fact, Jesus came the first time to do just that but the pharisees wouldn't take heed or learn. I love the car dealer example which you shared too. The statement above you made and the care dealer eminds me of a text.

    And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:3

    It's 9am here and this was the verse that i had in mind as i woke up in the morning. That the Sabbath, the seventh day was blessed right from the start. I start to wonder why many christians disregard the blessings on this seventh day. And the fact that it is even stated as part of the creation week is big deal indeed!

    I like to share a testimony. I'm in 2nd year university now but before i entered university, i was in a great dilemna. I didn't know whether i should study my degree from a private institution or a public one. The reason i was in this situation is because i knew that for a public universtiy in Singapore, there's alot of tests, exams and lectures on Saturday especially in the faculty i want to study in, Computing. On the other side, the private institutions were so attractive to me as since they are small and "private", i had a greater chance of not having stuff on saturday and even if i did, i could ask the administrator to help change the test date since it was small in cohort.

    I had shared this dilemna to my cell group then and they prayed for me on friday night. My mom knew about this and i believe she prayed for me too. The time was getting closer to enrolment and i had to make a decision whether i should drop my acceptance from this public university and quickly sign up for the new semester in the private institution.

    Two days later my mom had a great impression in the early hours of the morning. She woke up and wrote on paper. My dad was puzzled what she was doing at 5am on a sunday morning. I was still sleeping then but she passed me this note at around 9am or rather left it on the table since i had not woken yet. I got up and washed up and wondered what kind of note my mom left. This i read along with what she underlined:

    "Sean is to prepare his heart and mind to enter the university. Be still and know that i am God. I am the Lord of the Sabbath.
    Trust me and i'll see him through. Be still and know that i am God. Be still and know that i am God. Be still and know that i am God..."

    I had been in a dilemna, filled with despair and no hope. And it was this day that i was pointed so clearly the way to go - to enter university.

    I recall that nothing is too difficult for the Lord and made it my pledge to remember to "be still" always which i expand to be humble before the Lord and towards others. I'm not perfect but i'm living each day with this hope and longing to be more like Christ.

    3 semesters had passed, if i can recall, i had to see face to face 3 of my lecturers, email 3 others to help me keep my Sabbath and change the test dates. I had no problem with lectures and exams since they were out in advance before semester started and i could pick and choose with great meticulousness which i could do. It was only the tests which were not out in advance.

    In my 1st semester, i met with my lecturer to ask that the test not be on saturday. FOr this module, his lectures were on wednesday and saturday and he said "If you don't attend my lectures which are held on Saturday, then don't talk to me about the test". I left heartbroken. I called my pastor and he said some stuff, but whatever i did, i knew i was alone, i had to handle it myself.

    The results of my communication with my lecturer was, he set the test to a night test. It was extremely rare for a test to be set at night. It also meant that 600+ students had to stay until 630pm just to sit for the test, all because of me. The Lord had a surprise for me, i scored full marks for this test. The lecturer was shocked too as he asked me about it the next 2 weeks and told him so.

    1 other lecturer was quite stubborn and had set the test on a saturday even though i pleaded with her in email before she had set the test date. But something miraculous happened. She changed the date to lecture time after knowing that some others had tests on the same day she set. The rest of the lecturers were very understanding and it was with much humility that i went to their offices and wrote emails. I thank God for pulling me through these anxious and nervous times.

    Now i'm having my month long holiday and the new semester will start in January. I know i would have to continue the same tradition of approaching lecturers just as i had done the past 3 semesters. It's not an easy thing to do. I'm afraid some of them will be so mean and outright say "no way". But whenever i meet with them, at the back of my mind will linger the thought that Our God is the Lord of the Sabbath.

    So how does this affect the people around me? I've told my friends, roughly 20 about my Sabbath conviction. Some will exclaim with a "WOW" and wonder how i could still survive in university. Also, they knew that i had been doing very well even though to them i was deprived of one day. To non-Christians and Christians, their reaction was the same. They just couldn't grasp the fact that i was doing better than them even though i cut out 24 hours from my week from studying.

    I believe the Lord has done something in me as i faithfully kept his commandments. And i know that as I honor him, He will honor me. 1 Sam 2:30. I know i will worship him in heaven "from one sabbath to another" Isa 66:23 and i look forward to that day of our Lord.

    There is just something about the Sabbath, the day he has sanctified. I think there's a hymn like that. Whenever i go to church on the Sabbath, i pray that i will be sensitive to the blessings then and without fail i would be either blessed or been a blessing to others. There is just something about the Sabbath that i will always wonder until i get to heaven and inquire of the Lord. Perhaps if possible you would like to taste the blessings of the Sabbath and call the Sabbath a delight as i have always done.
     
  9. adam332

    adam332 Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

    699
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    Great testimony seangoh!
     
  10. adam332

    adam332 Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

    699
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    PastorNB,
    don't mean to nit-pick with a fellow Sabbatarian but.....you said;
    "all mankind with the exception of the Adventist denomination, (see 1 Peter 4:17) will be tested once again"
    Only the "Adventist denomination" that's pretty narrow and don't quote the strait gait passage either, I think you know I'm speaking at the label you have put on them. Are you telling me; you believe that those who are able to stand, those who are alive and remain, the remnant, etc.... are comprised SOLELY of Adventist? No other commandment keeping person could be in that group, eh? But, instead you are telling me that the only commandment keepers that will be translated without seeing death are those who are members of a particular denomination.

    Maybe you've mistaken the endtime movement of the SDA teaching as the people God has used to send forth His warning to call His flock back to love and obedience and recognition of their creator and His sign. This would mean as a non-denominational Sabbatian, even though I may have heeded His warning, know His sign, abound in love and obedience, and fall humbly at the knees of my creator, Christ Lord of the Sabbath. Still after all this I must be a member of a particular denomination? I thought it was true baptism/circumcision of the heart that God sanctifies us. I thought it was the heart that He looks at, to see if we will have the faith it will take.

    You still believe in righteousness through faith, correct? So are you saying that joining the Adventist denomination is like a command(baptism, spreading the gospel, etc...) which if ones faith is strong enough they will do it naturally? Your statement can be taken very elitist, or even holier than thou..... With so many readers I want to make sure this is what your claiming.

    I want to tell everyone that I do not believe this is the official position of their church at this time, and I know for a fact that many SDA churches do not teach this.

    They believe there will be a remnant people who will be faithful and strong enough to stand in His fiery presence without dying and they try to Biblically personify the traits of said people because they love God and God has told us throughout the OT and NT that those who love Him will keep His commandments. Not as some effort to earn grace but as a testimony of their love and faith. I believe that it does not matter who you are, if we use Biblical guidelines and principals, we can all personify His glorious remnant people.
     
  11. brotherjim

    brotherjim Well-Known Member

    996
    +35
    Christian
    Whomever,

    Just a few more "thoughts" along these lines.

    It’s vital that we do not miss the whole point of this teaching of the Sabbath. As someone already posted, "the Sabbath is for man." Our observances shouldn’t be as an act of sacrifice, but one of obedience, and our obedience should not be of a sacrifice. Huh?

    Mere common sense will dictate that man should have one day a week for rest and refreshing. "The cares of the world and deceitfulness of riches" are at work 6 days a week in taking our mind off of eternal things, and onto the needs and desires of our family. We are so blessed in this country to have, for the most part, an established 5 day work week: this gives us a sixth day to do our own things.

    I must admit that during the two decades I’ve been a believer, I myself have not observed the Sabbath as was intended. As a result, if someone were to look back over my Christian life, they would find it a mixture of periods of workaholicism, intermingled with periods of unemployment when I would give myself totally over to the Lord in writings and prayers and fastings and meditations. Had I learned to invest one day each week in these godly things when I was working, doubtless there would be little need for the Lord to take away jobs and drive me to the Rock the way He has.

    The Lord not only says if we Love Him we will obey His commandments, but that His commandments are not grievous to those so doing. In other words, our observances should come about as a "natural" byproduct of those miraculous changes He makes within our heart. For an example, our not loving the things of the world should not be the result of self-denial, but because God has supernaturally removed from our heart the lusts and pride of life.

    Likewise, observing the Sabbath should not be a ritualistic act of the flesh. It should come about as the result of heart changes. But in order for us to pursue these changes, and allow them to be made, we must consider those thoughts which will chip away at the veils over the heart and the idols within. So how can we apply this to the Sabbath?

    As I said above, we need to realize how, unless we withdraw ourselves from the cares of the world on the Sabbath, we will not be able to concentrate on the things of God. In our fast-paced and materialistic world today, there’s just not enough time and energy left during the week, to give ourselves to the needed two or three hours each day in a prayer "closet." We need a weekly time of deep reflection and intimacy. We need a time of cleansing our mind from the thoughts of the world. It may take a couple of hours to just do battle with these thoughts and concentrate on God to begin with.

    This is why Sabbath is for man. If we do our part, by first drawing close to God, He will do His part and then draw close to us. He will renew our strength. He will give of Himself the needed-by-us Wisdom. He will refocus the weeks thoughts on eternal things, reminding us that we do not toil at work the way the world toils, but our jobs are just one of many means to a certain end. An end of hopeful eternal rewards. He will motivate us to seek Him for divine revelations as to what yet remains in our hearts unknown to us, and yet which work to keep us from obtaining from Him the similitude of Christ. Even doing good on the Sabbath, if from mere well-intended good works of the FLESH, is of no profit and may actually work against the overall purposes of God. We must seek a leading of the Spirit instead. We must find out how to join ourselves to GOD’S work in the world and in us, and not vainly occupy our time with attemts to draw God down from Heaven and join Him to our works of self-righteousness.

    Let’s not observe the Sabbath as we have, but let us take advantage of the goodness it was intended be wrought in us. Let’s be thankful and understanding how good this day of rest is to our own benefit. For when we are benefited we are edified, and when we are edified we are better able to do the works of our Father. Everyone wins, and all purposes are served. Let us Love God from a pure heart, whereby we will "automatically" obey Him in all His commandments eventually, and such will not be at all grievous, for:

    "My yoke TRULY is easy, and My burden TRULY light."

    If we cannot say that is so very true of our own walk, then we are going about it the wrong Way.

    Copyright 2002 by brother jim - may be freely shared if this notice is included.
     
  12. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
    +0
    *************
    Hi,
    My wife has worked for K-Mart for seven years in the cash office & then for the past eleven or so years (?) she has been with Wal-mart in their cash office. She has never worked after Fri. evening sunset or during the Sabbath hours. She worked Sundays instead. (nor would she)

    It is my conviction that if I was forced to do otherwise, I would be looking for other enployment.
    Surely our Master would supply ALL of our needs, huh?

    In the Master's quickly finished work, (1 Peter 4:17)
    Pastor N.B.
     
  13. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
    +0
    Hi,
    first off, I am not in membership with the Adventist church, nor am I an independant Adventist member. Where did you understand that I said that Adventist would be translated? Try Matt. 23:3? Or Matt. 23:15, how about Rev. 3:9 for imposters? Are there good people still inside of the denomination? Surely! But as a denomination, she has gone the way of Israel of old! (again Matt. 23:3-1 Peter 4:17 says that a 'time' would come)

    About one being a Sabbath keeper? this saves no one! With that being said, let me give my conviction on this? No one will be [translated] without being a Sabbath keeper. Yet, MANY will be in the kingdom of God who have never kept the seventh day Sabbath! They had never been convicted upon the question! (just not the translated ones)

    You talk about a remnant? Do you think these can be translated being contrary to the Master's Words, and still be called a remnant?? Try John 10:16 & Eph. 4:5 & Rev. 18:4. No, God can & will require a TRUE ORGANIZED FOLD before it is all over.

    Thanks for the responce!
    In the Master's quickly finished work for the 'house of God first', (1 Peter 4:17-Lev. 16:14)
    P/N/B/

    PS:
    The Gospel of Christ has perfect ORDER. This is a Everlasting Gospel requirement.

    If you truely believe the Word of the Master, (I mean really!) there are a couple verses that are a shortcut to much study.
    ********

     
  14. brotherjim

    brotherjim Well-Known Member

    996
    +35
    Christian
    Pastor NB,

    Ummmmmm..........., some "strange" things you post here. Would you do me a favor? Please surf to christiansunite.com, and under General Theology, click on the topic "Is the Church the True Israel?" by thread starter "joel-something," and kindly see my (same username, brotherjim) posts there. Are we in any way speaking of the same, or even similar, things? Your posts here leave much to the imagination, and it's difficult to discern your point - at least for me. Thanks.

    bro. jim
     
  15. adam332

    adam332 Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

    699
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    PastorNB,
    you said;
    "Where did you understand that I said that Adventist would be translated?"

    Well, you said they would be the only ones who weren't "tested" and then you quoted from this passage....

    1Pet. 4:12-17  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    I believe it is clear from the context that the "end of them that obey not the gospel of God" is "concerning the fiery trial", that will occur "when his glory shall be revealed".

    Doesn't this passage warn us of the fate of the ungodly who do not obey the gospel of God at the second coming, and the glorification of them that do "obey"? Aren't they the "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God,"?

    The context says "trial" and you say "tested", this coupled with the context of the events surrounding second coming found in this chapter. Plus, the fact that I know of quite a few older(sorry for the implication) SDA's that make the same claim about the "Adventist denomination". Also your profile reads.... that your a retired pastor, and that your denomination is "7th day Philadelphia". All this can easily construe my aforementioned impression.

    ___________

    You said;

    "Try Matt. 23:3? Or Matt. 23:15, how about Rev. 3:9 for imposters"

    Imposters for what? Those first two verses you refer to, contextually are speaking of the Pharisees, their hypocrisies, and own additions to the law. The third reference of yours does not outright say that it is speaking of the Pharisees, but at the very least it is speaking of Pharisiacal like people. This is evident when taking the context and words of Christ coupled with many words of Paul(Rom. 2:28-29, Rom. 9:6, etc...). It then becomes plain that "the Jews which say they are Jews, and are not", are literal Jewish descendants who are not abiding in Christ. To which their blasphemy is....

    John 8:37-44 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Biblical Blasphemy- the claim of divine title or authority, (John 10:33, Mark 2:7, Mark 14:61-64, Mat. 9:2-3, Mat. 26:63-65, Luke 5:21, Psa. 74:10, James 2:7
    ).

    They told Christ that Abraham was their Father. They have placed Abraham in the place of God as proof of their salvation. God is the only Father and salvation only comes through the Son(1Thes. 5:9, 2Tim. 2:10, 2Tim.3:15, Heb. 5:9, Heb. 9:28).

    They gave Abraham both divine title(Father) and divine power(salvation) to a man. There is both Biblical definitions of blasphemy fulfilled by these Jews WHO ARE NOT counted as Abraham's seed.

    If that is what you meant by "imposter" then I concur, otherwise I don't know why you suddenly brought that up. I'm not sure what the Pharisee's being "imposters" is trying to imply unless your trying to compare them("house of God"~ 1Pet. 4:17) with modern day leaders of religion being, in the same sense, that are fake Christians. If so, I guess I can see your connection. but still I see no prophecy regarding the "Adventist denomination" specifically.

    __________

    You said;

    "Are there good people still inside of the denomination? Surely! But as a denomination, she has gone the way of Israel of old! (again Matt. 23:3-1 Peter 4:17 says that a 'time' would come)"

    I agree.

    __________

    You said;

    "About one being a Sabbath keeper? this saves no one!"

    I agree and I never said that it did, neither did I see anyone else make those claims. Salvation comes through faith. And, obedience to our Creator is a manifestation that witnesses to our faith.

    __________ 

    You said;

    "With that being said, let me give my conviction on this? No one will be [translated] without being a Sabbath keeper. Yet, MANY will be in the kingdom of God who have never kept the seventh day Sabbath! They had never been convicted upon the question! (just not the translated ones)"

    I agree.

    ___________ 

    You said;

    "You talk about a remnant? Do you think these can be translated being contrary to the Master's Words, and still be called a remnant?? Try John 10:16 & Eph. 4:5 & Rev. 18:4."

    I never implied, "these can be translated being contrary to the Master's Words, and still be called a remnant". Why would you ask?

    ___________

    You said;

    "No, God can & will require a TRUE ORGANIZED FOLD before it is all over."

    I will have to say yes and no. Depending on what you mean. When you say "organized fold" if you mean a specific denomination, then I would not agree. Unless you are talking about that denomination preaching truth in their message. Then yes I could agree. But if you are speaking of the remnant being a specific denomination, then I would say no. There is no denomination that can corner the market on being holy. I believe that the ones who will not taste of death and that will be alive and remain, will be not only be from one denomination. Commandment keepers? Yes every last one of them, but there are many non/other-denominational people out there who fit the same description.

    ___________ 

    You said;

    "The Gospel of Christ has perfect ORDER. This is a Everlasting Gospel requirement."

    I agree, I feel as if you are trying to make a point, are you?

    ____________ 

    You said;

    "If you truely believe the Word of the Master, (I mean really!) there are a couple verses that are a shortcut to much study."

    Hmmmm.....mighty quick to assume that you might show me something I'm not fully aware of. Ever consider that just maybe I could show you a thing or two? A wee bit hasty in evaluating what I know, I suspect... But, I will be pleased to see what you have to share.

    _________ 

    P.S.  I noticed that you said your wife works in the Cash Office at Wal-Mart, and that you live in SC. Well, intersetingly I work at a Wal-Mart in SC. Your not near Sumter, are ya'?
     
  16. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
    +0
    Hi,
    No, we are near Gaffney S.C. (my wife works in the super center there)

    The 1 Peter 4:17 verse I gave thought on (mine) was meant for the S.D.A. denomination. They have been judged first. The 666 is for the worlds testing. (and also the inmature of Adventism of course) I suspect that an ALL sleeping denomination could not see Mark 13:14 as an start of the abomination of desolation? 'Just standing there', INVITED to share the pulpit with the Master! And then also there is the second appliciation of the 70 AD (666) crisis. Or Eze. 9. Or perhaps most do not believe this to be future? (as well as past/tense)

    Whatever, use your vast amount of knowledge to do whatever your thing is? Salvation is all about the [individual] and [their Master], whom ever they decide to follow, huh? See Gen. 4:7.

    Your remark of me teaching you something was off the mark. At my age & growth I need NO such sarcarsm [on my part]. (just forget the question-Hosea 4:6) I try to keep my personal thinking about posters to myself. The message can be read, the mind mind reading is the Master's work, not ours. Besides, I know none of these many folks in person.

    The Rev. 3:9 verse was for the Laodicean denomination's claim. The Phil. church is said to .. 'kept the Word of My patience, 'I will also keep keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth'. What time might this be if not the last worlds testing. (not meant as a question)

    Just a closing thought. Do you believe in the Gospel going into all the world and then it will climax? And about the flight that we are to pray about not being in the winter or on the Sabbath day, still furture? Why? If you think so, how about giving me the scripture, to teach me something, you know?

    In the Master's quickly finished for the house of God, (first)
    P/N/B/
     
  17. adam332

    adam332 Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

    699
    +3
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Pastor NB,
    well with my "vast amount of knowledge", oops..... I forgot you need no such sarcasm.

    I never claimed I had a vast amount of knowledge, I just found that you thought you had a shortcut for me a bit presumptous. As if you interpreted my understanding as needing a shortcut. You may not mean to come across in such a manner, but you do. I do also, so no biggie....now that all planks are removed let's move on, shall we? Why is the SDA denomination judged first in your opinion? Why cannot any commandment keepers be considered?

    Sorry so brief, I will try to finish tommorrow have to be a Wal-Martian early in the AM.......zzzzzzzzz
     
  18. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi repentandbelieve,

    A police officer's duties are very important to society. It is true that criminals don't take breaks on the weekend. It is good to do good on the Sabbath.

    Mark 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

    Having said that, I would still try to get the Sabbath off. The Sabbath is a day for spiritual renewal. It is tough for this to take place in a secular environment. If this is not possible, I would at least try to keep all police functions, excluding the protection of life and the safety of others, on hold until the next work day.

    The bottom line is this, you have to ask yourself this question: Could I truly do this and keep the spirit of the Sabbath? Only you would know the answer to this question.

    I hope that this helps.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  19. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Seangoh,

    That was an excellent testimony.

    Keep strong in the faith. Remember, to always walk the "straight and narrow" because you are definately an example to others.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  20. geocajun

    geocajun Priest of the holy smackrament

    +1,610
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Democrat
    Hello all, I thought this thread could benefit from a few quotes from the Catechism regarding the Sabbath day.

    specifically CCC 2168-2188
    christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/comm2.html#THIRD
    I strongly recommend reading the entire link I provided above to get the complete context of what I am quoting.
     
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