What creationists need to do to win against evolution.

[Al Touthentop]

So you're okay with biological evolution not being in violation of thermodynamics then?

It is utterly and totally in violation. Evolution proposes that life sprang from basic elements and then became more complex over time.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You just said that photosynthesis decreases entropy. The two are not even related. Oh but I get it now. You think that this is a valid statement:

No, I noted that was only locally. That is not the same at all as saying that it decreases entropy. That is what happens when you only read part of a reply. You get it wrong.

Complexity is not increased by photosynthesis. That would mean that entropy is itself repudiated by photosynthesis. The complexity of a plant is determined by its DNA, and that complexity does not increase through photosynthesis. That would be like saying that a baby becomes more complex because he eats. He doesn't. He's born with all the complexity he'll ever have which is determined by his innate characteristics.

His whole life he fights decay - entropy - until he finally dies and then he turns to dust (though entropy!).

No, again, locally entropy can decrease. Photosynthesis does that. A plant stores the Sun's energy. By your argument logs should not burn since entropy always increases. You do not understand the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The total entropy in photosynthesis always increases. Low entropy sunlight is changed into high entropy waste heat and low entropy stored energy. As long as the total entropy of the stored energy and the waste heat is higher than the incoming sunlight entropy has been increased and is fine with the Second Law.

As I said, creationists always get the Second Law of Thermodynamics wrong. We can discuss this topic too. You cannot look at just part of the energy flow, one must consider all of it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is utterly and totally in violation. Evolution proposes that life sprang from basic elements and then became more complex over time.

How doe that violate the Second Law?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not at all.

So confused.

 

[HitchSlap]

Yeah, a sphere is flat. Every Hebrew knew that.

How flat are spheres?

 

[Al Touthentop]

How flat are spheres?

You tell me. I personally think not flat at all which is why the sarcasm.

 

[pitabread]

It is utterly and totally in violation. Evolution proposes that life sprang from basic elements and then became more complex over time.

So? You said yourself that an energy source can decrease entropy.

Earth has such an energy source*: the Sun. What is preventing such energy sources from decreasing local entropy in relation to the evolution of life on Earth?

(* Geothermal activity would be another.)

 

[HitchSlap]

Not at all.

"Photosynthesis is therefore the process that by capturing solar energy and decreasing the entropy of the planet, paved the way for evolution. Photosynthesis is the green talisman of life, Maxwell's devil that decreases the entropy of the biosphere. ... This input of solar energy is what fuels the carbon cycle.Oct 9, 2019"

Entropy and Biology Photosynthesis - Population Dynamics
www.ecologycenter.us › Population Dynamics

 

[Al Touthentop]

So confused.

That pretty much describes most of your responses.

 

[Al Touthentop]

So? You said yourself that an energy source can decrease entropy.

Nope. Entropy cannot be decreased unless there is no leakage of the supplied energy. The energy input is always leaked out in some way, usually damage to the internal parts thus, requiring some repair and more energy than was originally supplied.

Earth has such an energy source: the Sun. What is preventing the Sun from decreasing local entropy in relation to the evolution of life on Earth?

Ask the scientific community. It's settled fact that the sun does not decrease entropy. Ever.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That pretty much describes most of your responses.

Backwards as usual. I offered to discuss the Second Law of Thermodynamics with you, and yet you ran away again.

 

[pitabread]

Nope. Entropy cannot be decreased unless there is no leakage of the supplied energy.

This calls for a [citation needed].

Got a source for this?

Ask the scientific community. It's settled fact that the sun does not decrease entropy. Ever.

The scientific community isn't making this claim: you are.

 

[HitchSlap]

That pretty much describes most of your responses.

I think he means you.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I think he means you.

Oooh....burn...

 

[Al Touthentop]

This calls for a [citation needed].

Got a source for this?



The scientific community isn't making this claim: you are.

LOL. Prove me wrong then. You can read about entropy anywhere. Show me where entropy can be decreased by the sun as proposed by some scientist somewhere.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nope. Entropy cannot be decreased unless there is no leakage of the supplied energy. The energy input is always leaked out in some way, usually damage to the internal parts thus ,requiring some repair (using more energy than was supplied in the first place.



Ask the scientific community. It's settled fact that the sun does not decrease entropy. Ever.

So much wrong. The total entropy of a system always increases. That does not mean it cannot decrease locally. To store energy, as in photosynthesis there is a local decrease in entropy, but remember it is the total entropy of the system that must increase.

In the same way there is no problem with increasing complexity. Yes, that is a local decrease in entropy, but one needs to look at the total entropy of the system and that needs to increase.

 

[pitabread]

LOL. Prove me wrong then. You can read about entropy anywhere. Show me where entropy can be decreased by the sun as proposed by some scientist somewhere.

Not how the burden of proof works. You're making the claims, you need to support them.

If you can't support them, I think we all know why.

 

[Subduction Zone]

LOL. Prove me wrong then. You can read about entropy anywhere. Show me where entropy can be decreased by the sun as proposed by some scientist somewhere.

Whoo boy!

I seriously do not think that you understand what entropy is. You are treating as a mystical magical icon. You do realize that entropy can go down locally, don't you?

 

[HitchSlap]

LOL. Prove me wrong then. You can read about entropy anywhere. Show me where entropy can be decreased by the sun as proposed by some scientist somewhere.

Photosynthesis is therefore the process that by capturing solar energy and decreasing the entropy of the planet, paved the way for evolution. Photosynthesis is the green talisman of life, Maxwell's devil that decreases the entropy of the biosphere. ... This input of solar energy is what fuels the carbon cycle.Oct 9, 2019

Entropy and Biology Photosynthesis - Population Dynamics
www.ecologycenter.us › Population Dynamics



Feedback

 

[Al Touthentop]

Photosynthesis is therefore the process that by capturing solar energy and decreasing the entropy of the planet, paved the way for evolution. Photosynthesis is the green talisman of life, Maxwell's devil that decreases the entropy of the biosphere. ... This input of solar energy is what fuels the carbon cycle.Oct 9, 2019

Entropy and Biology Photosynthesis - Population Dynamics
www.ecologycenter.us › Population Dynamics



Feedback

LOL..... A blog post by some crank selling solar panels is not scientific.

Entropy cannot be decreased by anything that anyone has been able to demonstrate.

"The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases over time. Isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium, the state with maximum entropy. Non-isolated systems, like organisms, may lose entropy, provided their environment's entropy increases by at least that amount so that the total entropy either increases or remains constant. Therefore, the entropy in a specific system can decrease as long as the total entropy of the Universe does not. Entropy is a function of the state of the system, so the change in entropy of a system is determined by its initial and final states. In the idealization that a process is reversible, the entropy does not change, while irreversible processes always increase the total entropy."

Like I said, you can read about entropy anywhere:
Entropy - Wikipedia

Including the bible which fairly well describes it:

Genesis 3
"19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

There's a reason that the only plants that make it out of your compost pile are from the seeds deposited there.