What creationists need to do to win against evolution.

Ophiolite

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Too many question come up with the theory of evolution.
Two points for you to reflect on:
  • In my experience most of the questions that come up have been answered, often many decades ago, but the answers are at best unknown by Creationists, or at worst persistently ignored by them.
  • Questions are the life blood of science. Without further questions science would just be a dead collection of facts, but science is not what is known, but about how we know it - the scientific method, in which questions are crucial.
I would be interested to know what you consider to be the single most telling outstanding question.
 
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Ophiolite

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Oh,,,I don't believe we are apes.
I think this idea has hindered the growth of children that have been taught this.
You will note from my signature that I describe myself as a Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape. Can you demonstrate that it was my understanding that I am an ape that led to the negative characteristics of recalcitrance or procrastination. :)

I think humanity is a special species and no other animal is like us.
There is no animal like the dung beetle. All animals are unique. My cat appears to believe she is at the apex of the evolutionary tree. I've found it best not to correct her.

We're aware of a higher power or we wouldn't be arguing about it.
No. We are arguing about it because some people mistakenly believe that if evolution is true it "disproves" God.
 
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GodsGrace101

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If we could find concrete proof that you were conceived by your parents, would that prove that God didn't make you? By the same argument, would concrete scientific evidence of the origin of the universe and of life prove that the universe wasn't created by God?

All that this concrete evidence would achieve would be to show that the creation stories in Genesis are not literally true, and most Christians, and probably most Jews, accept that already.
Most Christians can accept that Genesis is an analogy.
But think of how close it comes to reality.
Somewhere a first person appears. Adam and Eve

Somehow the universe started with a big bang. Let there be light.

Things were created as they were and would reproduce themselves. No solid proof of evolution.

If there could be concrete proof of how the universe was started...and that it came from absolutely nothing....Christianity would be in trouble,,,IMO.

Maybe this is why there's such a battle over this?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Two points for you to reflect on:
  • In my experience most of the questions that come up have been answered, often many decades ago, but the answers are at best unknown by Creationists, or at worst persistently ignored by them.
  • Questions are the life blood of science. Without further questions science would just be a dead collection of facts, but science is not what is known, but about how we know it - the scientific method, in which questions are crucial.
I would be interested to know what you consider to be the single most telling outstanding question.
Hmmm. I don't think many questions have been answered or we wouldn't still be looking for answers.

My questions would be to understand how a fish could become a mammal.

How a one cell organism could become a human being.

Why we have a conscience and rational thought and an interest in finding a God....how could we think up something that does not exist? What is the mind?
What are NDEs?

Who knows if the questions in paragraph two could ever be answered.
 
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GodsGrace101

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You will note from my signature that I describe myself as a Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape. Can you demonstrate that it was my understanding that I am an ape that led to the negative characteristics of recalcitrance or procrastination. :)
LOL Wait let me get my dictionary!
Recalcitrant AND procrastinating.
I sure hope you're not married!

You know, we're all different. And I do believe you're a rather intelligent person....Do YOU think a kid grows up better thinking he's the cousin of an ape...
or do you think he grows up better if he's told he's made in the image of a God that loves him?

As proof...I submit that kids were always mischievious and treated each other rather harshly, but I also submit that they didn't shoot each other in school. There might be other reasons too...but not having a belief in either AUTHORITY (sorry 'bout that) OR God can certainly not contribute to their well-being.

There is no animal like the dung beetle. All animals are unique. My cat appears to believe she is at the apex of the evolutionary tree. I've found it best not to correct her.
I agree on both. I also do not argue with my cat...I find that agreement causes a much more pleasant relationship.

No. We are arguing about it because some people mistakenly believe that if evolution is true it "disproves" God.
IF evolution is true it does not disprove God....
But if the universe came from nothing?
Well.....
 
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Ophiolite

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Hmmm. I don't think many questions have been answered or we wouldn't still be looking for answers..
I respectfully suggest you have not reflected properly on my remarks. The universe is a vastly complex place. We have learned a great deal about it, but we have so much more to learn - that is why there are still questions and why there will be questions for many millenia to come. To think otherwise you would have to ignore what we have already learned about the universe, disregard the complexity, fail to be inspired by those seeking to answer those questions and overlook the answers that have already been found.

My questions would be to understand how a fish could become a mammal.
That has been answered.

How a one cell organism could become a human being.
And yet, presumably, you have no difficulty in accepting that a one celled organism can become a human being in nine months? (And the larger, evolutionary question you ask has also been answered.)

Why we have a conscience and rational thought and an interest in finding a God....how could we think up something that does not exist?
We have a conscience because a sapient, sentient social species that lacked a conscience would not long survive. A conscience is essential to ensure a measure of altruistic behaviour is present.

Rational thought is rather uncommon in humans. The scientific method creates a set of railroad tracks that force thought along rational lines.

I am bemused that you would ask "how could we think up something that doesn't exist?" I presume you must believe that the Star Wars films are documentaries!

What is the mind?
That is one of the really great unanswered questions. If I were closer to the beginning of my life than its end, then I might have a chance of seeing it answered.

What are NDEs?
Behaviour of a brain in shut-down mode.

Who knows if the questions in paragraph two could ever be answered.
They have been and if you had chosen a single question to focus on, as I asked, rather than a somewhat discourteous Gish Gallop, I would have attempted to give you a fuller answer. Is that the question you want to focus on? Fish to mammal?

If there could be concrete proof of how the universe was started...and that it came from absolutely nothing....Christianity would be in trouble,,,IMO.
I don't understand why you think this is important, but for the record scientists do not believe the universe came from absolutely nothing.

No solid proof of evolution.
Science never proves anything. Science either provides an explanation for observations that are superior to any other available explanation, or disproves candidate explanations.

GodsGrace, I recognise that you might interpret my direct style as belligerent. It is not so intended. What I note in most of your observations is an extensive ignorance of scientific findings and the scientific method. There is nothing wrong with ignorance as such, given that we are all ignorant of very much more than we are knowledgeable of. However, I suggest it is foolish to express opinions about something one is ignorant about, especially when a wealth of knowledge on that topic exists. You have listed several questions you think are unanswered. They have been answered. The answers are available to you, but it will require effort on your part to acquire them. Are you ready to put in that effort, or do you wish to remain ignorant?
 
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MIDutch

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Is this an invitation to study evolution? ;)
Definitely an invitation to study the cosmos without resorting to "and then magic happened".

Further, studying evolution has definite benefits which "and then magic happened" does not. It is the study of evolution, not creationism, that is taught at Wageningen University, the leading agricultural university in the world. It is the study of evolution, not creationism, that has any hope of feeding the world's burgeoning population. Creationism has NEVER produced anything of benefit to the human species. We can't learn anything productive from "and then magic happened". We don't understand "and then magic happened". We can't solve problems with "and then magic happened". We can't put "and then magic happened" to any useful purpose. "And then magic happened" has ALWAYS been an innovation killer.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Oh,,,I don't believe we are apes.
I think this idea has hindered the growth of children that have been taught this.

I think humanity is a special species and no other animal is like us.

We know we can get sick.
We know we are going to die.
We feel empathy (not compassion, animals can feel compassion).
We think about the after life.
We have a memory of important things that have happened in our lives.
We're aware of a higher power or we wouldn't be arguing about it.

A Christian can define SPIRIT,,,it's just that atheists do not accept it.
It does not matter what one believes. It matters what one can support. I know that creationists do not like the fact that we are apes. The question is can they support that belief with valid arguments. Your questions about whether other animals can reason is a failed argument.

From your list other animals have the same abilities, only to a lesser degree.

And if Christians can define spirit why have you not done so? Circular definitions do not count.
 
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Speedwell

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Definitely an invitation to study the cosmos without resorting to "and then magic happened".

Further, studying evolution has definite benefits which "and then magic happened" does not. It is the study of evolution, not creationism, that is taught at Wageningen University, the leading agricultural university in the world. It is the study of evolution, not creationism, that has any hope of feeding the world's burgeoning population. Creationism has NEVER produced anything of benefit to the human species. We can't learn anything productive from "and then magic happened". We don't understand "and then magic happened". We can't solve problems with "and then magic happened". We can't put "and then magic happened" to any useful purpose. "And then magic happened" has ALWAYS been an innovation killer.
It is interesting to recall that when Joseph Stalin outlawed the theory of evolution, Soviet agriculture collapsed and millions starved.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It's a problem both ways.
It just seems easier to believe that God made everything.

If God is a first cause...then He always had to exist.
Both are difficult to understand...
That all this could come from nothing...
That all this was created by a being that always existed.

It is easier to believe that 223862 * 3949360 = 2. It would be wrong, but it is a lot easier than working out the correct answer.
 
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MIDutch

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Hmmm. I don't think many questions have been answered or we wouldn't still be looking for answers.
Science has plenty of answers for all sorts of "questions", but there is a certain segment of the world's population who refuse to accept the evidence in support of those answers. That's why these creationism "debate" forums exist.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It is interesting to recall that when Joseph Stalin outlawed the theory of evolution, Soviet agriculture collapsed and millions starved.
And it also demonstrated that evolution is not "atheistic" . The Soviet Union was almost officially atheistic at that time, but communism was the ruling concept and evolution somehow appeared contrary to that philosophy according to those in charge.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Looks like a great book! Will get it if I can.
I used to play a game with my brother in times past:
WHAT DID GOD CREATE FIRST?:
forks and knives (our fingers)
carpeting (grass)
and so many other things I can't even remember right now.

Eyes, as a telescope was one of them.
And I've always thought eyes disprove macroevolution.
What was happening to animals while eyes were being created? Were they totally blind? Did they begin to see in stages - a little at a time? Exactly how would that have worked?

And the same for ears....were all animals deaf at one time...

Too many question come up with the theory of evolution.
That is Ray Comfort level ignorance. Sight evolved long before people existed. To propose that as a problem only tells us that you do not even have a middle school level of understanding of the concept. One cannot debate what one does not understand. And eye evolution is well understood.

Here is a serious suggestion. If you see a "problem" in evolution that is almost certainly only a problem with your understanding. Ask questions politely. No "gotcha questions" because you really do not understand this well enough to refute it yet. If you truly show that you want to learn others will help you.refute

Remember the lesson of Galileo. He was not trying to disprove God when he claimed that the Earth moved. Those that accept the theory of evolution are not trying to disprove God either. They merely want to understand our world better.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Definitely an invitation to study the cosmos without resorting to "and then magic happened".

Further, studying evolution has definite benefits which "and then magic happened" does not. It is the study of evolution, not creationism, that is taught at Wageningen University, the leading agricultural university in the world. It is the study of evolution, not creationism, that has any hope of feeding the world's burgeoning population. Creationism has NEVER produced anything of benefit to the human species. We can't learn anything productive from "and then magic happened". We don't understand "and then magic happened". We can't solve problems with "and then magic happened". We can't put "and then magic happened" to any useful purpose. "And then magic happened" has ALWAYS been an innovation killer.

However did we survive before Darwin came on the scene? :scratch:
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Definitely an invitation to study the cosmos without resorting to "and then magic happened".

Further, studying evolution has definite benefits which "and then magic happened" does not. It is the study of evolution, not creationism, that is taught at Wageningen University, the leading agricultural university in the world. It is the study of evolution, not creationism, that has any hope of feeding the world's burgeoning population. Creationism has NEVER produced anything of benefit to the human species. We can't learn anything productive from "and then magic happened". We don't understand "and then magic happened". We can't solve problems with "and then magic happened". We can't put "and then magic happened" to any useful purpose. "And then magic happened" has ALWAYS been an innovation killer.

As an agnostic how would you know that?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Definitely an invitation to study the cosmos without resorting to "and then magic happened".

Further, studying evolution has definite benefits which "and then magic happened" does not. It is the study of evolution, not creationism, that is taught at Wageningen University, the leading agricultural university in the world. It is the study of evolution, not creationism, that has any hope of feeding the world's burgeoning population. Creationism has NEVER produced anything of benefit to the human species. We can't learn anything productive from "and then magic happened". We don't understand "and then magic happened". We can't solve problems with "and then magic happened". We can't put "and then magic happened" to any useful purpose. "And then magic happened" has ALWAYS been an innovation killer.

It's all magic...all of it. :bow:
 
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MIDutch

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As an agnostic how would you know that?
I wasn't always an agnostic. I was raised Roman Catholic, so, yeah, I know a little something about "and then magic happens". I'm agnostic about the existence of God, but I definitely know that "and then magic happens" isn't the answer to anything.
 
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