What Convinced you God Exists?

[Tinker Grey]

but your heart knows better.

There is no "heart"; there is "only" mind. Heart is just a metaphor for the seat of emotions.

 

[Bradskii]

I am not saying that you think it or believe it. I'm saying you know it. Your mind says otherwise --that I don't doubt at all-- but your heart knows better. Your will says, 'nope'.

Your 'evidence' is evidence that you are not the atheist that at least others claim to be --simply failing to believe. If you have evidence that there is no God, then you reject God.

If I wrote that post but reversed the sentiments, so it implied that you knew there was no God, then I might expect to get banned. I'm new here but that would seem a reasonable response from the mods. I mean, what on earth could give me the right to tell you that I know exactly what you believe, what your mind is telling you, what your heart knows, despite your reasonable explanations of just the opposite? What insolence would I be exhibiting in telling you that I know better than you do in regard to what you personally believe?

I think I'd be acting in a shameful manner.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Yeah, this is my biggest pet-peeve. "You don't know what you think. Let me tell you..." Bah.
A. "How dare you?" "
B. "Well, scripture says..."
A. "Just more evidence it's wrong."

That is something that they do not understand. I know I do not believe so that scripture they keep citing (Romans 1:21) is demonstrably false.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I am not saying that you think it or believe it. I'm saying you know it. Your mind says otherwise --that I don't doubt at all-- but your heart knows better. Your will says, 'nope'.

Your 'evidence' is evidence that you are not the atheist that at least others claim to be --simply failing to believe. If you have evidence that there is no God, then you reject God.

You are wrong.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If I wrote that post but reversed the sentiments, so it implied that you knew there was no God, then I might expect to get banned. I'm new here but that would seem a reasonable response from the mods. I mean, what on earth could give me the right to tell you that I know exactly what you believe, what your mind is telling you, what your heart knows, despite your reasonable explanations of just the opposite? What insolence would I be exhibiting in telling you that I know better than you do in regard to what you personally believe?

I think I'd be acting in a shameful manner.

Since you asked:

"20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him" (Romans 1)

 

[Mark Quayle]

There is no "heart"; there is "only" mind. Heart is just a metaphor for the seat of emotions.

As you wish.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yeah, this is my biggest pet-peeve. "You don't know what you think. Let me tell you..." Bah.
A. "How dare you?" "
B. "Well, scripture says..."
A. "Just more evidence it's wrong."

But in the end, this is what it comes down to.

I have a very good atheist friend; we call each other brothers. We get to shouting sometimes, but in the end, we always have to shut up. Yet we love each other.

I can tell you this: I am pretty sure, that if I was to decide God did not exist, or that I don't have enough evidence to believe he does exist, it would not be for intellectual reasons. I'm also pretty sure that I would convince myself it WAS for intellectual reasons. --Projection then? Ok.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If you're unwilling to assume honesty on the part of interlocutors is bad faith, and I see no reason to spend further time replying to you.

I thought I made it plain that we ALL are somewhat dishonest, and that some of it was not even conscious --but apparently not. I'm not saying anyone is not taking anyone else to be expressing what they don't believe, but to be fooling themselves. And again, we all do that.

Allow me to quote something CS Lewis wrote, that helps show how bad it is --I have to repeatedly tell Christians that our limited and self-important minds, and our worldview as humans, has us asking dishonest questions of God.

“I saw well why the gods do not speak to us openly, nor let us answer. Till that word can be dug out of us, why should they hear the babble that we think we mean? How can they meet us face to face till we have faces?”
― C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces: A Myth Retold

 

[dlamberth]

There is no "heart"; there is "only" mind. Heart is just a metaphor for the seat of emotions.

Still, metaphor or not, it's interesting how working from Heart can completely change a persons perspective on life.

 

[Bradskii]

Since you asked:

"20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him" (Romans 1)

I guess you think that a scripture verse and some forum anonymity gives you the right. Fair enough.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I guess you think that a scripture verse and some forum anonymity gives you the right. Fair enough.

Just answering the question. I have from the beginning been saying what I believe --poorly enough, no doubt-- and did not mean to antagonize. I do poke fun sometimes, and maybe I get a bit mean. For that I am sorry.

 

[Paulomycin]

Fine? Okay, prove "nor can there be" any additional options presented. And don't weasel out of it!

Well, first you need to learn how deductive elimination works.

 

[Paulomycin]

Second request -- (from the bottom of post #94).

Great! Now maybe you can address post #85? According to your own methodology(s), how does a deist go from a generic deist, all the way to a Christian?

After atheism is falsified, it doesn't really matter, but. . .

1.) The God of Romans 1:18-20 is the Deist model without the additional assumptions the Enlightenment Deists added on in the 18th century. The God of Nature (Grand Architect of the Universe, etc.) found in Romans 1:18-20 is literally the "on-ramp" to Christianity.

2.) Once omnipotence is established, it becomes a litmus test for all religious claims (all of them). It's easily testable. Most religious claims are non-omnipotent to one extent or the other, including many of the "big three" monotheistic religions. To be fair, it even cuts through many Christian denominations. If God is not 100% sovereign over the entire universe, then you were raised in the wrong church.

 

[Tinker Grey]

But in the end, this is what it comes down to.

I have a very good atheist friend; we call each other brothers. We get to shouting sometimes, but in the end, we always have to shut up. Yet we love each other.

I can tell you this: I am pretty sure, that if I was to decide God did not exist, or that I don't have enough evidence to believe he does exist, it would not be for intellectual reasons. I'm also pretty sure that I would convince myself it WAS for intellectual reasons. --Projection then? Ok.

Based on your posts, I'd have to guess that ceasing to believe in God's existence would not, in fact, be for intellectual reasons.






Sorry.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Still, metaphor or not, it's interesting how working from Heart can completely change a persons perspective on life.

I'd say emotions don't change a person's perspective on life, but rather life changes one's emotions.

I've told my daughter who suffers from various mental diagnoses that emotions are valid, but they are but a barometer of the human system. She should not let emotions rule her decision making process.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Based on your posts, I'd have to guess that ceasing to believe in God's existence would not, in fact, be for intellectual reasons.






Sorry.

No insult taken. I said as much myself. It made me chuckle to hear you say it.

 

[Bradskii]

Just answering the question. I have from the beginning been saying what I believe --poorly enough, no doubt-- and did not mean to antagonize. I do poke fun sometimes, and maybe I get a bit mean. For that I am sorry.

It's not for me to accept your apology. Your comments were directed elsewhere. But I can certainly thank you for the integrity of that post.

 

[dlamberth]

I'd say emotions don't change a person's perspective on life, but rather life changes one's emotions.

I've told my daughter who suffers from various mental diagnoses that emotions are valid, but they are but a barometer of the human system. She should not let emotions rule her decision making process.

Compassion, Empathy and Love, are things of the Heart. It's interesting what you told your daughter because I've suggested to my daughter to be very aware of Heart in her decision making process. She knows that she will be a better Human Being if she did that. Living from the Heart is very much a spiritual practice in the world I live in.

 

[Bradskii]

Compassion, Empathy and Love, are things of the Heart. It's interesting what you told your daughter because I've suggested to my daughter to be very aware of Heart in her decision making process. She knows that she will be a better Human Being if she did that. Living from the Heart is very much a spiritual practice in the world I live in.

I think that we need to be careful with our emotions. It can be good to go with the heart in preference to the head. But we need to be aware that if we go with the heart first, we often try to justify to ourselves that it's the right answer. We make up post hoc arguments that back up our position. I catch myself doing it sometimes, so I'm pretty sure there are times when I don't realise what I'm doing.

 

[dlamberth]

I think that we need to be careful with our emotions. It can be good to go with the heart in preference to the head. But we need to be aware that if we go with the heart first, we often try to justify to ourselves that it's the right answer. We make up post hoc arguments that back up our position. I catch myself doing it sometimes, so I'm pretty sure there are times when I don't realise what I'm doing.

Agreed. But in the same breath, I don't have to jump far to believe that the world would be a much better place if things like Empathy and Compassion (Heart) were brought to the forefront in our everyday lives.