What commandments is Jesus talking about?

[ace of hearts]

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[mkgal1]

You may say I just want to argue.

Clearly.

 

[ace of hearts]

Clearly.

OK, I take this as instruction to keep my mouth shut and my fingers off the keyboard and go along with anything and everything. After all it's love to say yes and hate to say no. I'm sorry but I love the truth and you seem to love the IC in its various flavors. I don hate the IC, I just can't accept what is going on and being taught. So God bless your religious heart and I'll take Jesus.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

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Your best post!!!!!!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So are you warning us through a third party (the Scripture)? If so what are you or the Scripture warning us about in your quote?

See, this is why you really should read what you write before you post it...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

For example....

Can't you read?

 

[BABerean2]

It’s draining dealing with these people who promote their lawless Messiah along with their lawless Apostles.

Nobody here who is speaking the truth about the New Covenant is advocating lawlessness.
The New Covenant is actually a higher standard, not for our salvation, but for our conduct.


Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


In Matthew chapter 5 Christ contrasts the two covenants below with the words “But I say…”


Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
Mat 5:26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Mat 5:31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
Mat 5:32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.


Mat 5:33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
Mat 5:34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Mat 5:40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
Mat 5:41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
Mat 5:42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.


Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
Mat 5:45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
Mat 5:47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
Mat 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

How can anyone claim the commandments of Christ found above are lawlessness, unless they are trying to hang onto the Sinai Covenant of "bondage", found in Galatians 4:24-31?

.

 

[Dkh587]

Nobody here who is speaking the truth about the New Covenant is advocating lawlessness.
The New Covenant is actually a higher standard, not for our salvation, but for our conduct.


Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


In Matthew chapter 5 Christ contrasts the two covenants below with the words “But I say…”


Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
Mat 5:26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Mat 5:31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
Mat 5:32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.


Mat 5:33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
Mat 5:34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Mat 5:40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
Mat 5:41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
Mat 5:42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.


Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
Mat 5:45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
Mat 5:47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
Mat 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

How can anyone claim the commandments of Christ found above are lawlessness, unless they are trying to hang onto the Sinai Covenant of "bondage", found in Galatians 4:24-31?

.

Anybody here or anywhere else teaching people to disobey God’s commandments is advocating LAW-lessness.

Christ was teaching the commandments with the correct understanding. He wasn’t doing away with them - he already told us he didn’t come to do away/destroy/cancel/void the law in Matthew 5:17.

The commandments of Christ aren’t lawlessness, because he wasn’t teaching us to disobey God’s law. It’s people on this board that are promoting and encouraging lawlessness/disobedience to God’s law.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Nobody here who is speaking the truth about the New Covenant is advocating lawlessness.
The New Covenant is actually a higher standard, not for our salvation, but for our conduct.

How can anyone claim the commandments of Christ found above are lawlessness, unless they are trying to hang onto the Sinai Covenant of "bondage", found in Galatians 4:24-31?

.

On the one hand you say the NC is a higher standard (I agree) but on the other hand you say Sinai is bondage and gone. ALL of those you say are now stricter are based on Sinai...you imply they are mutually exclusive which makes no sense at all...

 

[BABerean2]

but on the other hand you say Sinai is bondage and gone.

What does the Bible say?


Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
(See Hebrews 12:18-24, and Hebrews 11:15-16.)
Gal 4:27 For it is written: "REJOICE, O BARREN, YOU WHO DO NOT BEAR! BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR! FOR THE DESOLATE HAS MANY MORE CHILDREN THAN SHE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

What does the Bible say?


Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
(See Hebrews 12:18-24, and Hebrews 11:15-16.)
Gal 4:27 For it is written: "REJOICE, O BARREN, YOU WHO DO NOT BEAR! BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR! FOR THE DESOLATE HAS MANY MORE CHILDREN THAN SHE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

.

I know what it says...do you? You seem to keep needing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You want to separate what is the same and put together that which is separate! Physical vs spiritual.

"But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now."

 

[mkgal1]

Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—

What things are symbolic? You should have quoted the text that described what was going on.....

Galatians 4:9-18 ~
But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that my efforts for you may have been in vain. 12I beg you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong.

13You know that it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14And although my illness was a trial to you, you did not despise me or reject me. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What then has become of your blessing? For I can testify that, if it were possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

17Those people are zealous for you, but not in a good way. Instead, they want to isolate you from us, so that you will be zealous for them. 18Nevertheless, it is good to be zealous if it serves a noble purpose—at any time, and not only when I am with you.
************************
It wasn't just that the Gentiles were observing special days, months, and seasons (there's no bondage in that) - it's that the Judaizers were convincing them that they HAD TO (along with becoming circumcised). Wasn't it in the Dr. Michael Brown video about the "shadows" that pointed to the reality? That truth of what was symbolic and pointing to Christ and how He'd fulfilled all that was being confused by the Judaizers.

Quoting Ligonier Ministries ~
“It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ” (v. 12)

- Galatians 6:11–12

These concluding comments in Galatians 6:11–18 summarize the epistle’s major themes and explicitly identify the Judaizers’ fear of persecution as what motivated them to insist on circumcising Gentile Christians (v. 12). As we saw weeks ago, first-century Jewish nationalists were apt to persecute any Jews who were seen as overly friendly to Gentiles. Jewish persecution of Christianity in those days often had more to do with the fact that ethnically Jewish Christians would not circumcise Gentiles than with the proclamation of Jesus as the Messiah. Forcing Gentile Christians to take on circumcision could be a good way for Jewish believers to prove their loyalty to Judaism and escape suffering. But to do this, Paul reminds his readers, was to deny the sufficiency of the cross, which levels the field for Jew and Gentile alike before God (3:28).​

 

[BABerean2]

What things are symbolic? You should have quoted the text that described what was going on.....

Galatians 4:9-18 ~
But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that my efforts for you may have been in vain. 12I beg you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong.

13You know that it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14And although my illness was a trial to you, you did not despise me or reject me. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What then has become of your blessing? For I can testify that, if it were possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

17Those people are zealous for you, but not in a good way. Instead, they want to isolate you from us, so that you will be zealous for them. 18Nevertheless, it is good to be zealous if it serves a noble purpose—at any time, and not only when I am with you.
************************
It wasn't just that the Gentiles were observing special days, months, and seasons (there's no bondage in that) - it's that the Judaizers were convincing them that they HAD TO (along with becoming circumcised). Wasn't it in the Dr. Michael Brown video about the "shadows" that pointed to the reality? That truth of what was symbolic and pointing to Christ and how He'd fulfilled all that was being confused by the Judaizers.

Ligonier Ministries ~
“It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ” (v. 12)

- Galatians 6:11–12

These concluding comments in Galatians 6:11–18 summarize the epistle’s major themes and explicitly identify the Judaizers’ fear of persecution as what motivated them to insist on circumcising Gentile Christians (v. 12). As we saw weeks ago, first-century Jewish nationalists were apt to persecute any Jews who were seen as overly friendly to Gentiles. Jewish persecution of Christianity in those days often had more to do with the fact that ethnically Jewish Christians would not circumcise Gentiles than with the proclamation of Jesus as the Messiah. Forcing Gentile Christians to take on circumcision could be a good way for Jewish believers to prove their loyalty to Judaism and escape suffering. But to do this, Paul reminds his readers, was to deny the sufficiency of the cross, which levels the field for Jew and Gentile alike before God (3:28).​

Are you saying Galatians 4:24-31 is only about circumcision?

.

 

[mkgal1]

Are you saying Galatians 4:24-31 is only about circumcision?

Was that your only take-away from what I posted?

I'm saying that Paul is addressing something specific that was happening at that time. It wasn't just circumcision - look back at v 8-10. Circumcision, on its own, isn't bondage (I'm willing to guess that you are circumcised and most likely don't feel oppressed because of it). It was the teaching that it was necessary to follow all these physical and symbolic outward practices that was oppressive (and demeaning to the work Jesus had accomplished).

These (festivals) are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. —Colossians 2:17

Also - the text in Galatians states that the Judaizers were trying to isolate the Gentiles. That's what abusers do - they isolate their victims from the supportive community. That, to me, seems to be the greater issue that Paul is writing about (who they can trust/not trust). The Judaizers were undermining all that had been revealed to the Gentile Galatians. They were pulling them back (or attempting to) into a ritualistic outward religion as mentioned in Galatians 4:3:

Galatians 4:3 ~So also, when we were children, we were enslaved under the basic principles of the world.​

 

[mkgal1]

I can't believe you're posting this way being an Anglican.

Maybe you should learn more about Anglicans as well, then, if my posts surprise you (coupled with my identity as an Anglican).

Here's a great place to do that, if ever you're interested: About Us | Official Site for N.T. Wright Courses Online

Or by reading this book:

 

[klutedavid]

Anybody here or anywhere else teaching people to disobey God’s commandments is advocating LAW-lessness.

Christ was teaching the commandments with the correct understanding. He wasn’t doing away with them - he already told us he didn’t come to do away/destroy/cancel/void the law in Matthew 5:17.

The commandments of Christ aren’t lawlessness, because he wasn’t teaching us to disobey God’s law. It’s people on this board that are promoting and encouraging lawlessness/disobedience to God’s law.

I don't think anyone is promoting killing people on this forum.

 

[BABerean2]

Was that your only take-away from what I posted?

I did not see you explaining why Paul compared the Sinai Covenant to "bondage" in the post.

I did not see where you acknowledged the fact that Paul said there are "two covenants", in Galatians 4:24-31.

Did I miss it?

.

 

[mkgal1]

On the one hand you say the NC is a higher standard (I agree) but on the other hand you say Sinai is bondage and gone. ALL of those you say are now stricter are based on Sinai...you imply they are mutually exclusive which makes no sense at all...

I'm just keeping these two quotes together - because that's an excellent point and I want to carry it forward.

What does the Bible say?


Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage

So explain to us specifically HOW the Sinai covenant brings bondage and oppression - because aren't we to be "enslaved to Christ" so we won't be "enslaved to sin" (Eph 6:6; 1 Peter 2:16; Col 3:24)?

 

[mkgal1]

I did not see you explaining why Paul compared the Sinai Covenant to "bondage" in the post.

I did not see where you acknowledged the fact that Paul said there are "two covenants".

Did I miss it?

.

I didn't see where you'd asked about that. Did I miss that?

I did bring up other issues, though - about the context of that passage that Paul was addressing. The emphasis I see is on this (v 3):

"we were enslaved under the basic principles of the world."​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I don't think anyone is promoting killing people on this forum.

Agreed. However, murder is against the law... ;-)