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You will find this quite amusing. I am reading Charles Finney's "Experiencing the Presence of God". He talks about what happens when a person comes under conviction of sin, and he relates Paul's experience in Romans 7 as him coming under conviction of sin and then reaches out to Christ and become converted. Then Paul goes on to say that the Spirit of life in Christ has set him free from law of sin and death.
Because I take Finney's teaching very seriously, I had to have a discussion with the Lord about it, and asked the Lord whether my view of Roman's 7 is incorrect! I thought of you!So, you might be right!!!
It is interesting that when I read Finney's teaching, I feel that I am not the Christian I should be and makes me pray very honestly with God about what I have done, am doing, and what I should do. He makes me think that I have wasted most of the 50 years I have been a Christian.Any man that says I might be right is okay in my book! LOL
You will begin to appreciate the enormous power of the Holy Spirit to kill the old nature and give you a soft heart that loves the eternal law of God.
You're talking about the law and keeping it as an obligation for salvation. No one can attain salvation by the law.
You can't obligated God. The wages you'll get for keeping the law are wages you really don't want. When it come to heaven you really value vanity?
It is interesting that when I read Finney's teaching, I feel that I am not the Christian I should be and makes me pray very honestly with God about what I have done, am doing, and what I should do. He makes me think that I have wasted most of the 50 years I have been a Christian.
But when I read his chapter on what is true and false conversion, I felt encouraged, because there is more about his description of a truly converted Christian that describes me, but there are a couple of points where I wasn't sure. The thing about Finney, he never lets you off his hook until you are totally right with God in every respect!
But I am also reading Spurgeon's "Grace and Power" and he points me to Jesus in a way that I assured of my faith in Him.
I am also reading J C Ryle's "Practical Religion", and he gives another perspective that shows the vast difference between a mere religious person and a real Christian.
I am watching Roberts Liardon on Youtube at the moment and he is giving another view of the Christian life and experience.
I think the merger of all the teaching gives a good balance of things, but the effect of all these men is to drive me in prayer to Christ to discuss with Him what I am reading.
That has to be good for me, I think.
I don't label people like that. The men I referred to are recognised soul-winners who, in their ministry, won thousands to Christ.You may feel better reading this mixture of beliefs, but Finney is whole truth and was about to purge you from your past. Pray for discernment as you read these other men, especially Calvinists - your feel good place. It made me think of leavening. Here is what I found. You may be going back to what is comfortable, but that may just be itching ears.
1 Corinthians 5:6-7
Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
I think there is a difference between following God's moral law in our hearts because we love God and His Law and would want to do everything for His glory and for the good of others; and following the Law because we want to keep ourselves out of hell, or just to receive blessings for ourselves.No, I am not. The law was never meant to save anyone, you have read me wrong.
The law says to honor your parents, am I doing wrong by obeying this? The law says to not steal, so should I steal instead? What are you getting at? We are to obey God, and what he requires from us is found in his commandments and laws.
If you don't believe in following the law, you're likely still in your sins and will be judged on the last day.
Hello Jonaitis.No, I am not. The law was never meant to save anyone, you have read me wrong.
The law says to honor your parents, am I doing wrong by obeying this? The law says to not steal, so should I steal instead? What are you getting at? We are to obey God, and what he requires from us is found in his commandments and laws.
If you don't believe in following the law, you're likely still in your sins and will be judged on the last day.
Sorry but I don't see a connection to Jesus here. You provide no passage where Jesus re-commanded the famous 10." And Moses came and told the people all the words of YHWH, and all the ordinances: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which YHWH hath spoken will we do."
Exodus 24:3
"What commandments is Jesus talking about?"
What Yahuah commanded, Moses commanded, and what Moses commanded, Yahshua re-commanded in the renewed covenant.
Sorry but I don't see a connection to Jesus here.
There is no doubt that Jesus fully supported the Law as good and holy and showed God's standards in no uncertain terms. We see that right throughout the gospels in His teaching to the "lost sheep of Israel".Well, if you don't see the family connection between Father and Son, here's a passage that may help:
"Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"
Who's Law?
It's true that - "Faith is when we solely rely on the WORD of GOD alone to do what it says it will do."Thanks brother, I enjoyed reading your post responses. In this post I will add your replies for reference and also add my answers underneath. The answers provided to the questions below are a response to your earlier post in post #285 linked (added for reference and ease of referral)
1, What makes a Christian a Christian?
I like this answer brother as it discribes the process of becoming a Christian and the role that God's LAW (10 Commandments) has in Grace. I will only add a simplified version of your answer and that is FAITH makes a Christian *JOHN 3:16-21. Faith is when we solely rely on the WORD of GOD alone to do what it says it will do. A Christian therefore is someone that BELIEVES and FOLLOWS God's WORD *ROMANS 3:4.
IOW there's no reason for your condemnation of what people in other churches believe. You can't make this statement and say these Christians of other churches have no salvation meaning they won't have the right to eat from the tree of life. You did say God's people. Given your posting history you say God's people instead of Christian for some reason. Christians are born again people who follow Jesus and generally some other quasi-christian (religious) stuff promoted from the pulpit for the most part. Generally speaking this quasi-christian stuff won't interfere with their salvation.............
2, God's people are in EVERY Church living up to all the light that God has revealed to them. JESUS says many sheep I have from other folds and he must bring them and that the hour is coming and now is that all those who wish to worship God must worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 10:16; JOHN 4:23. JESUS also says that all those why follow the teachings and traditions of men are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Where is God calling His people back to?
None of these passages are calling anyone (Christians) to be governed by the law.I am answering this section here with these scriptures in mind *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11; ECCLESIASTES 1:9; MATTHEW 4:4; 2 TIMOTHY 3:16; JOHN 10:16; JOHN 4:23.*MATTHEW 15:3-9 in relation to the question where is God calling his people where ever they may be back to? This questions follows on from the earlier question on what makes a Christian which we answered FAITH alone in God's WORD. A Christian being all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.
Here you reveal your true agenda - religion. Your focus is religion opposed to a relationship with Jesus Christ the Righteous and our Father. True Christianity isn't a religion, It's a relationship with God (the Father) and Jesus Christ the Righteous.It is interesting if you look at the days of JESUS the religeous teachers of the day were also many. The same and more so today within Christianity. There are so many different Christian religions today all proclaiming they have the truth and everyone else is wrong. In the days of JESUS and the Apostles there was also different religous groups professing different things within the JEWISH teachings of the OLD Covenant. We read that the main JEWISH sects making up ISRAEL at the time of JESUS included; the Chief Priests and Levites, the Pharisees, the Saducees, the Samaritans, the Essenes, the Herodians, the Zealots and the Nazarenes and other miscelaeous splinter groups. *MATTHEW 2:4; MATTHEW 5:20; MATTHEW 7:29; MATTHEW 9:3; MATTHEW 15:1; MATTHEW 3:7; MATTHEW 16:1; MATTHEW 16:11; ACTS 4:1; ACTS 5:17; JOHN 8:48; LUKE 17:16; MATTEW 22:16; MARK 3:6; MARK 12:13; MATTHEW 10:4; MARK 3:18; LUKE 6:15; ACT 1:13; ACT 24:5. (other sources; 1; 2; 3)
We have a translation problem creating our problem. The Greek word "Christos" means Messiah as in deliverer. It doesn't mean Jesus. Jn 1:17 and Gal 3:19 back this up. John because the law came by Moses and something much different came by Jesus complying with Jer 331:31-33. Gal 3:19 because it states the law was until Jesus thereby excluding Jesus as the giver. When it comes to understanding the OT, no one in the day of Paul knew better what the Scripture (OT) says and means.The point here is that all the different sects and teachings within the JEWISH religion in the time of JESUS as parrallel to Christianity today. Just like it was in the days of JESUS so it is today. ALL these things are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world have come *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11.
Thank you for emphasizing "this fold" of JN 10:16. You take that to mean the same as the one fold. Jesus doesn't say He was bring these other sheep to "this fold." I understand some here will say it doesn't matter. I beg their pardon. Rom 11:17 says -"grafted in among them..." It doesn't grafted into them.JESUS says Go first to the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL *MATTHEW 10:6; MATTHEW 15:24; JESUS says; Many sheep have I that are not of this fold (referring to the disciples of Jesus), them I must also bring (where?) so there will be one shepard and one fold * JOHN 10:16. WHY? *JOHN 4:23-24 For the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
IOW all those you expose to the 4th commandment lose their salvation. Really should make you feel great. Christians are governed by the words of Jesus and thru the Holy Spirit - not the law. JN 15:10, Gal 5:18The parallel today is that God's people are in EVERY CHURCH. As long we we are living up to all the KNOWLEDGE of God's WORD that he has revealed to us then we are a part of God's Church. God's Church are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.
God isn't calling His people to the law given to Israel. 1 JN 3:23God is calling his people out from following the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of GOD to whorship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH according to his WORD. The one Shepard is JESUS (the WORD of GOD) and he is calling his Sheep back to the WORD of GOD to worship God according to his WORD in SPIRIT and in truth *MATTHEW 15:3-9; REVELATION 18:1-5.
This isn't Christians who don't follow the law given only to Israel in the desert after departure from Egypt. Your statement is contrary to the passage you reference.............
3, Who are the lost and why are they lost?
This is just a simplified answer to the question who are the lost. The lost are the opposite of those who are Christians and that is all those who do not know or BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD *JOHN 3:16-21.
Yes you can merely attend church without being a Christian, contrary to what many people believe.This raises an interesting question. Can we be in God's Church wherever that may be and be lost? Listen to the words of JESUS;
None of this has anything with Christians becoming Israel (God's People as you apply the phrase).MATTHEW 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
MATTHEW 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
These scriptures tie in with the earlier discussion in questions 1-3. If we are given a KNOWLEDGE of the truth of God's WORD and we reject it or choose not to follow it, are we in a saved state before God or an unsaved state before God *JAMES 4:17; ACT 17:30-31? Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it *ROMANS 3:4 over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. JESUS says that all those who KNOWINGLY follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. The hour is coming and now is when those who worship God must worship him in Spirit and in truth. God is calling his Sheep wherever they may be back to the WORD of GOD to the true Shepards calling *JOHN 10:16 JOHN 4:23.
Thanks for sparing us. It's still an error.............
4, Who is God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT?
Correct brother I will not add more to this one accept to add that everything we are talking about now is applicable to God's Church today (all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD) where ever they may be.
Israel isn't the Church. Such a teaching is the false replacement theology taught these days.............
5, Who are the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL and does God want us to save them through his Word *MATTHEW 10:6?
Remember God' ISRAEL today are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. A JEW is not one outwardly but he is a JEW which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God *ROMANS 2:28-29.
As shown through the scriptures above already the LOST SHEEP are all those who JESUS is seeking to save also within ISRAEL (His Church). All these things are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world have come. Please do not misunderstand this post brother. It means we should be seeking the to save the lost where ever they may be both inside and outside the Church to all those who do not KNOW God's WORD and to those who have rejected it.
You by passed your question. I can understand why.............
6, What part of God's WORD is not important and what is it that we need to be converted to *MATTHEW 13:13-16?
As stated correctly in the beginning of your post ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of GOD and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness *2 TIMOTHY 3:16, just as ALL THESE THINGS in are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the WORLD have come 1 CORINTHIANS 10:11 and we are to live by EVERY WORD of it *MATTHEW 4:4. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. JESUS says that all those who KNOWINGLY follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth according to his WORD. This is where God is calling his people where ever they may be.
We do not please God making an effort to keep the law. It won't redeem anyone giving them the righteousness required by God.............
7, If we knowingly follow the teachings and traditions of men that lead others to break the commandments of God are we in a saved state before God or an unsaved state before God?
Absolutely good reply! We cannot follow God by following the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. God is calling his people where ever they may be to worship him in Spirit and in truth according to the Word of God.
Amen!God's Sheep hear his Voice (the WORD)
You're very welcome.Thanks for sharing and the discussion.
My friend it is hard to have a discussion with you when you do not respond to the posts, questions and the scriptures in them that disagree with you. So I think it may be time to wish you all the best and pray that I might see you in God's KINGDOM.If you respond to everything line by line in my posts I'll be more than happy to return the favor except for repeated posts. IOW I'll respond once.
Obviously you don't hear God's voice. Maybe you're not the lamb you claim to be. Lamb is one of the sheep - singular vs plural.A PARABLE FOR ALL (Myself included from God's WORD).
Some were told by the one who knows all things;
Hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and not perceive: this was because or a waxed heart that had no feelings that effected the eyes and the ears which confused the understanding.
In the path of the narrow way, these same people that did not see or hear God's WORD fell into the ditch of delusion that all fall into that kick against the pricks and have lost their mirror that can be used as a phone to call the doctor.
Their lamp was a guide to them but they did not have enough oil. Their lamp went out and now they sit in darkness and have fallen into a dtich and cannot find their way out.
Some travellers in the way walked by and saw those that did not see or hear, sitting in the ditch of darkeness who lost their way and offered them some oil for their lamps but they being proud would not accept the gift and did not want to receive any help choosing instead to make their home in the ditch of delusion which the Lord of the way gave them over to because they loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil.
Tick tock goes the watch the time for grace is running out. Who will hear the call to go out and meet the brifegroom? Only those that have their lamps trimmed and full of oil.
God's Sheep hear his Voice (the Word of God)
You're not saying anything I don't understand. Yes I understand the parables of Jesus.MATTHEW 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
MATTHEW 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
MATTHEW 13:53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed there.
Hello Jonaitis.
If the Christian walk in the Spirit was as simple as not stealing and honoring your parents. Then the Christian instruction would take five minutes, you've been told what to do now go and do it, the apostles would have said.
I'm afraid that this approach to understanding the revelation of the Christ is deeply handicapped. Christ taught not the letter of the law but the letter of the Spirit, much deeper than simply don't do that and avoid this.
Jesus taught us to love others which covers not stealing and not committing adultery. You can't steal from someone if you truly love them.
Love is broad and comprehensive; it deals with anger, gossip, rivalry, judging others, everything that is sin in essence.
The golden rule is to treat everyone the way you want to be treated. Yet divine love is greater than that because you love the way Christ loved you. That is agape love and is far above the elementary legal rules, it meets the law fully and extends far above the law, even into the heavenly realms.
God is love, God is not defined by not stealing, to be Christ like is to love others deeply.
Bearing fruit is not honoring your parents, bearing fruit is kindness, gentleness, patience, love, e.t.c.
I think there is a difference between following God's moral law in our hearts because we love God and His Law and would want to do everything for His glory and for the good of others; and following the Law because we want to keep ourselves out of hell, or just to receive blessings for ourselves.
The former is the right way to approach the Law, and the latter has no value to God whatsoever because it is keeping the Law just to benefit self and for self-improvement, which leads to self-righteousness, which leads to hell.
Thanks for your post I read it completely prior to responding.
I understand what you're trying to say here. John was writing to Christians about errant theology.This is written in one of the styles of Semitic writing. It is a contrast. In this case a contrast of light vs. darkness. The blue is darkness, and the red is of God. The blue is the false doctrine of the Gnostics. (wrote more after the verses).
Who is the we in verse 6 and 7? For me they're both the same group. Isn't John including himself with that word? What does "walking in" mean to you? Have you ever heard the expression - if you talk the walk, walk the talk? To me walk in means actually actively practicing/doing what one does - a way of life. So I think the word "practice" in the quote implies what I said. The evidence in some early churches indicates Christians were actually practicing sin. You did mention Gnosticism. See Corinthians for example if you need something real clear.5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
This is why I'm not apart of organized religion at this time. If you speak about these things in church, you become tolerated and disfellowshiped but allowed to attend and be ostracized for not financially supporting Gnostic and Nicolaitian theology.
This is to Christians on how to recognize antichrists, what they called Gnostics. The Nicolaitans were a sect of Gnostics. Their doctrine was very appealing. 1 John 4:1-3 shows us they did not believe Jesus came in the flesh. They taught that only sins of the spirit were sins, but any actions of the flesh were not sins, and made grace abound all the more. Thus they said they were without sin.
Ah the problems of religion. I disagree about who you claim never repented. Haven't you read about Demas, who Paul once loved turning his back on the Gospel.Notice verse 9 is next to 8. 8 is a sinner from birth, and has twisted the meaning of the gospel to be their fulfilling the lust of the flesh are not sins at all, but a means to produce grace. 9 is how to become a Christian. Notice all their past sin is cleansed. They are no longer a sinner, but a son John 8:34-35. 10 is more of the same believing they have never sinned since birth. Neither 6, 8 or 10 have ever repented. They are lost in their sins with the weird doctrine of 1 John 4:1-3.
Nice quote1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 1 John 4:1-3
Also a nice quote.1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
To me verse 6 means practices sin. That would be in line with 1:6-7 which say "walk in" (KJV).Here John uses the same contrasting style
1 John 3:3-10
3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
Yes a person that walks in (practices) darkness (sin) is a child of the devil. 1:9 isn't talking about as habitual life style. Neither is James in chap 1 of his letter.7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
I think reading is great! It stimulates the mind, well most minds. I do puzzles. It causes me to focus on details.You will find this quite amusing. I am reading Charles Finney's "Experiencing the Presence of God". He talks about what happens when a person comes under conviction of sin, and he relates Paul's experience in Romans 7 as him coming under conviction of sin and then reaches out to Christ and become converted. Then Paul goes on to say that the Spirit of life in Christ has set him free from law of sin and death.
Because I take Finney's teaching very seriously, I had to have a discussion with the Lord about it, and asked the Lord whether my view of Roman's 7 is incorrect! I thought of you!So, you might be right!!!
So I noticed.Any man that says I might be right is okay in my book! LOL
AgreedYou will begin to appreciate the enormous power of the Holy Spirit to kill the old nature and give you a soft heart that loves the eternal law of God.
SorryNo, I am not. The law was never meant to save anyone, you have read me wrong.
So do you thing the person who will tell you what to do with your religion would also be keeping the law? IOW simply not doing those things isn't necessarily following the law.The law says to honor your parents, am I doing wrong by obeying this? The law says to not steal, so should I steal instead? What are you getting at? We are to obey God, and what he requires from us is found in his commandments and laws.
Yes sir not following the law means you most likely don't have salvation. That's the way I read your previous post.If you don't believe in following the law, you're likely still in your sins and will be judged on the last day.
What commandments is Jesus talking about in -
Jn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
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