What came first?

[elman]

Consciousness, or existence?

What is most fundamental?

I see it is, or it is?

If you claim God created the universe, it would be consciousness, as God is a conscious Being thus it has the capacity for volition (free will) and the ability to create.

If you go on this premise, it creates big problems.

In order for something for be conscious, it must exist.

Claiming "God exists" for a basic premise is illogical because you would need to differentiate between God as consciousness and God as existence.

Consciousness is based on relating to an already existing world, a mind cannot exist in a vacuum.

However, if you take the premise that existence is first, your work is largely done for you.

You simply build up from the fact that something (the universe) exists. You can see it and see its power over you. No faith required of you.

Existence must come first. Consciousness only follows existence.

Based on that, how can God exist?

God has always existed and always been conscious. Neither came first.

 

[redmartian89]

Consciousness can only exist with the preceding of existence in-itself. But consciousness itself exists as a being of non-being, a no-thing, the only reason why physical existence(as it is usually defined)must compose itself before consciousness is because consciousness can only propel itself through existing with the use of the objects that exist prior. This makes existence an ontology, which is then observed through the consciousness of phenomenology(using Sartrean terms, of course).

What is the non-being? Is it the mind?

 

[TeddyKGB]

I suppose it could be a different form of it, but we can't even define what the conscious observer is to begin with, and there's really no way to know what happened to your consciousness while you were out.

Your lapses into contextual dualism are confounding. As far as I can tell, "I" don't exist without "my" consciousness. They are, effectively, identical.

If you think that awareness is not existence for a conscious being, then at what point do you think a sentient being ceases to exist?

A sentient being ceases to exist when it becomes non-sentient.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

What is the non-being? Is it the mind?

It's the consciousness as it is.

 

[NavyGuy7]

Consciousness, or existence?

What is most fundamental?

I see it is, or it is?

If you claim God created the universe, it would be consciousness, as God is a conscious Being thus it has the capacity for volition (free will) and the ability to create.

If you go on this premise, it creates big problems.

In order for something for be conscious, it must exist.

Claiming "God exists" for a basic premise is illogical because you would need to differentiate between God as consciousness and God as existence.

Consciousness is based on relating to an already existing world, a mind cannot exist in a vacuum.

However, if you take the premise that existence is first, your work is largely done for you.

You simply build up from the fact that something (the universe) exists. You can see it and see its power over you. No faith required of you.

Existence must come first. Consciousness only follows existence.

Based on that, how can God exist?

As far as I see it..... Consciousness CAN come first, if it is God's consciousness. And do you have proof that there is a vacuum in God?

 

[elcapitan]

As far as I see it..... Consciousness CAN come first, if it is God's consciousness.

This is absurd. God can be conscious, even if He doesn't exist? It doesn't make sense, but this is what you are arguing if conciousness can come before existence.

And do you have proof that there is a vacuum in God?

I don't think you understood the OP.

 

[Maranatha27]

Wow your to complicted. Try to comprehend the first verse in John and get back to me. lol

 

[elman]

Why does a physical universe have to exist before a spiritual creator of that universe can exist? Answer: it doesn't.

 

[elcapitan]

Why does a physical universe have to exist before a spiritual creator of that universe can exist? Answer: it doesn't.

To paraphrase the OP, consciousness is based on relating to an extenal world/universe. Thus, (God's) conciousness could not exist before a universe existed.

If you disagree with this definition of consciousness, give a reason instead of just stating that it's wrong.

 

[elman]

To paraphrase the OP, consciousness is based on relating to an extenal world/universe. Thus, (God's) conciousness could not exist before a universe existed.

If you disagree with this definition of consciousness, give a reason instead of just stating that it's wrong.

Why would consciousness have to relate to a universe? Consciousness would relate to existence of whatever being is conscious. It seems we are arranging to get to the desired result by changing the meaning of the word or creating a rule like "consciousness is based on relating to an existing universe". Who created that rule?

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

As far as I see it..... Consciousness CAN come first, if it is God's consciousness. And do you have proof that there is a vacuum in God?

God cannot have a consciousness.

 

[elman]

God cannot have a consciousness.

Do you have other limits on God as well?

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

Do you have other limits on God as well?

Nope, but definitions do.

If god was consciousness then he couldn't exactly be as he is in the world, could he?

 

[elman]

Nope, but definitions do.

If god was consciousness then he couldn't exactly be as he is in the world, could he?

Why not? Are we talking about a conscious entity or something else?

 

[elcapitan]

Why would consciousness have to relate to a universe? Consciousness would relate to existence of whatever being is conscious. It seems we are arranging to get to the desired result by changing the meaning of the word or creating a rule like "consciousness is based on relating to an existing universe". Who created that rule?

Fair enough.
I would say that the OP's definition goes along with the common use of that word (e.g. "he was rendered unconscious").

In any case, you still can't say that consciousness comes before existence because if a being is conscious, it must exist.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

Why not? Are we talking about a conscious entity or something else?

Consciousness of god cannot be an existent. For consciousness of a thing would mean that it would have incomplete knowledge of the future and past of the thing.

 

[elman]

Fair enough.
I would say that the OP's definition goes along with the common use of that word (e.g. "he was rendered unconscious").

In any case, you still can't say that consciousness comes before existence because if a being is conscious, it must exist.

This would be logical but it is inapplicable to a being that has always been both conscious and existing.

 

[elman]

Consciousness of god cannot be an existent. For consciousness of a thing would mean that it would have incomplete knowledge of the future and past of the thing.

Why? If God has always existed and always been conscious, why would God who created time have incomplete knoweldge of anything.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

Why? If God has always existed and always been conscious, why would God who created time have incomplete knoweldge of anything.

Then he would no longer be the definition of consciousness. He would be, in more superficial definitions, a unification of consciousness and being-just-as-it-is. That makes no sense.

 

[elman]

Then he would no longer be the definition of consciousness. He would be, in more superficial definitions, a unification of consciousness and being-just-as-it-is. That makes no sense.

What makes no sense is your defintion of consciousness.