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What "Believers" Refuse to Believe (Part 1)

BNR32FAN

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Now here is the question of the day..

What is that fruit?

Are you qualified to judge the fruit of another?

What is your fruit?

Fruit is good works. I think repentance could also fall into that category. Now what is the biblical definition of the word abide? It does not mean to act in accordance with it means to remain in or remain with.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Fruit is good works. I think repentance could also fall into that category. Now what is the biblical definition of the word abide? It does not mean to act in accordance with it means to remain in or remain with.

Fruit is good works?

No... not necessarily. Galatians 5:22-23

Good works can come out of the fruits of the Spirit in an able body, but in general fruit is a heart thing..

That heart thing can produce other things, but in each person "fruit" manifests itself according to the ability of the individual..
 
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BNR32FAN

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Fruits of the Spirit would be anything the spirit produces.
 
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bling

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It's not a deed ... it's a familial relationship. We have been adopted into God's family.

I think that it may be possible to disavow such a relationship, ... but anything short of that ending the relationship is iffy, I think ...
We are slaves of who we obey.
The Hebrew writer in 12 warns Christians of doing what Esau did (giving our birthright away), this might be the way we leave the family.
 
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fat wee robin

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[QUOTE="" to receive. Is that a work on our part too? The preceding verse says we must also "heed" the good news...a "work" as you define it?

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

If you do not "heed" the word, engage it, embrace it, claim it and make it yours through faith (not just hearing the "sound" of the good news words as it is spoken) it is not "believed" as Isaiah sees it...

Heeding the word is a response to what has been heard, not a work to "earn" what has been offered for free.[/QUOTE]
Excellent
 
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Mountainmike

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Ignatius to smyrneans is certainly not believed to be a forgery, and in any event, that is irrelevant,because that IS what the early church did, and none contest it, which considering the earliest fathers - take iraneus were hot on heresy, they are silent in contesting the Eucharist of " real flesh" . Other fathers quote iraneus. Why so if it was forged?

ALmost all the earliest fathers speak of the bishops as central to true doctrine, because they were how the faith was passed. Iraneus gives a good account of how doctrine was passed you tradition, and that Rome had primacy, indeed - without iraneus you would not know who authored the gospels.

What you mean is... you dislike episcopal succession, so you will ignore all who say it. Despite the fact that all the way from iraneus to Augustine, they list the bishops of Rome. Why?



 
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fat wee robin

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So you are 'passively reading the bible , passively writing posts ,pâssively thinking about this thread etc. ?
 
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fat wee robin

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I hope it is still bad to wish the death of your father , in order to recieve an inheritance ?
 
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BNR32FAN

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The Epistle to the Smyrnaeans is believed to be lengthened so it’s not clear what Ignatius originally said. I was only asking because I was wondering if there were any other mention of the Eucharist only being valid that I was unaware of. To my knowledge Iranaeus didn’t address the topic. Also Iranaeus never said Rome had primacy. Succession doesn’t have any relevance to a person being led by the Holy Spirit. I will refrain from further commenting on that subject to avoid an unpleasant conversation. It’s not easily discussed without offending someone. That is not my intention and not the topic in this discussion.
 
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TogetherInHim

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Now here is the question of the day..

What is that fruit?

Are you qualified to judge the fruit of another?

What is your fruit?

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’


41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The "fruit" of one's life will leave a trail of deeds that demonstrates that the one we call "Lord" has been heeded according to his expectations. Then we "inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world".

We can know them by their fruits, yes. But we are not the "Judge" of anyone... But there is a Judge...

16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
 
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TogetherInHim

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We live by "every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". Warnings to His children that seem harsh, is also love...

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:


6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.


7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.​
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Jesus Says unbelievers will be able , Yahweh Willing,

to see and know the difference between the TRUE believers they see and know

and the false counterfeit believers they see and know .......

This pans out (it happens). It is truth.


Now here is the question of the day..
What is that fruit?
Are you qualified to judge the fruit of another?
What is your fruit?
 
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A_Thinker

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TogetherInHim

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You are so close to seeing this! You have "rightly divided the word of truth"...

None of these examples give any indication of excluding believers. They all apply to everyone believers included.

This is exactly correct!

Now, if you go through the very verses that you cited, you will see that they all have to do with "entrance to the kingdom of heaven" and not "salvation".

This one word, "salvation" (saved) we wrongly apply to both the curse that Adam brought upon the world, death...and also the consequences of failure to enter into our "inheritance" (the kingdom of heaven).

Take this one from above...


Paul is speaking to the church! "Among you". "God's People".

What is Paul saying is at risk of them losing? Their "inheritance of the Kingdom of Christ and of God"! He is not warning unbelievers. Unbelievers are dead under the curse of death that Jesus has "saved" believers from. There is no point in telling unbelievers about specific sins that will exclude them from the kingdom of heaven. They are excluded because they have not been "saved" from their death sentence of mortality.

Paul is warning those who have received "salvation". They have been "saved" from the curse of "death" and given an "inheritance", the kingdom of heaven. "Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people." If we go on sinning willfully after receiving...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. Hebrews 10​
 
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TogetherInHim

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Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is a Christ-follower.

If we could just see that there are those who in a sincere, heart-felt time during their life, have heard the gospel, recognized their need, believed in their heart that Jesus died for them to give them eternal life, and accepted his free covenant offer of "salvation" from the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world, been given the spirit of truth, the powerful Helper of the Holy Spirit and later in that same life...

Fall away to this...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

They will hear the "terrifying" words... "Depart from Me..."

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine.

This cannot be Jesus speaking about "salvation", other wise salvation is by works. In the first verse Jesus tells us exactly what he is speaking about, "entrance to the kingdom of heaven"!

The title of this post is astonishingly correct...

What "Believers" Refuse to Believe"...​

Please try to bring yourself to distinguish between the verses and teaching that apply to "salvation" as separate and distinctly different from those that apply to our "inheritance", entrance to the kingdom of heaven. Until we do, we will never understand the parables, and "the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" will not be revealed...

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?


11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.


13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:


15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.


17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Jesus actually revealed a mystery in the next verse after saying that there are hidden mysteries...

"12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

The question is, can you see it?
 
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friend of

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This cannot be Jesus speaking about "salvation"

The biggest issue here is that you're taking "Salvation" to mean Saving faith, but with the connotation of eternal damnation without saving works. Which doesn't sound very salvific.
 
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