What are we to do respecting the Ten Commandments?

[timothyu]

I am sure that Jesus taught about worshipping God and not about paying rent or going grocery shopping.

You missed my point. Its how they behaved when doing so that mattered. He taught to put the Father's will first which was tp treat God and each other with servitude. Any religious institution would have to serve God and people likewise, not be served.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You missed my point. Its how they behaved when doing so that mattered. He taught to put the Father's will first which was tp treat God and each other with servitude. Any religious institution would have to serve God and people likewise, not be served.

I believe that pretty well every religion teaches people to think and pray to their god (or gods) at all times.

 

[timothyu]

I believe that pretty well every religion teaches people to think and pray to their god (or gods) at all times.

But Jesus gave us 2 simple commandments on how to live.. We do that, we do God's will and that is a start at making him happier with us.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

But Jesus gave us 2 simple commandments on how to live.. We do that, we do God's will and that is a start at making him happier with us.

Many religions have one or two chief precepts that their faithful adherents are intended to follow.

 

[timothyu]

Many religions have one or two chief precepts that their faithful adherents are intended to follow.

Yes I know but aren't we to follow God first? Following the rules of membership in a religion focuses on the particular sect, like allegiance to a nation or the sort.

 

[KevinT]

... what the Church teaches has the advantage of many prayerful minds examining the matter and prayerfully reaching a conclusion about it. I think I trust a well-considered and documented view that has stood the test of time above my fleeting opinions. Which do you trust?

You make good points here. In a perfect world, having a large organization would seem the perfect vehicle to deliver high-quality, well-considered wisdom on complicated points.

The problem is that we live in a world filled with ungodly people who love to put themselves into positions of power. I'm thinking of the high priest Caiaphas at the time of Christ. There he was, the pinnacle of the priesthood, the very system that God himself set up for education of His people. Who better should have been aware of the prophecies that taught of the birth of the Messiah during his term? He certainly must have heard about the 3 Magi following a star and the subsequent massacre of babies in Bethlehem And wouldn't he have been told about the prophetess Anna who spoke of Jesus at the time of His dedication? So why did the Jewish bureaucracy of religious intelligentsia fail to recognize the messiah? The system should have worked. But it didn't.

I think it is because we have a powerful adversary who was doing everything possible to spoil Christ's mission. If I was in Satan's position (God forbid!), I would have worked hard to position one of my operatives in just such a position as Caiaphas held. Recall also how Satan manipulated Peter himself, one of Christ's closest disciples, to tempt Jesus. Satan was working among Jesus's closest friends!

Matthew 16:22-23 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!” Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Satan constantly works to counter the work of God. There are numerous stories I could reference, such as when Ananias and his wife Sapphira infiltrated the believers, committed a fraudulent donation and were put to death after the words of Peter. I am not one to be looking for a boogieman or devil behind every misadventure, but we are warned to be aware and to understand who we are battling against.

Ephesians 6:12 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Paul warned that soon after his death, "wolves" would come in to tear down the flock

Acts 20-29 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

So you asked, "Which do you trust?" And I'll tell you frankly, I don't trust large organizations. I live in the USA, a country with a democratically-elected government. Their job is supposed to be to work for the people. But I know that every one of the politicians is just thinking about his next reelection campaign. Do I trust that he has my best interest in mind? No. Likewise, my church (SDA) has a fairly large bureaucracy of people I don't know. Do I trust them to do everything properly, to not waste money, to be 100% accurate in their activities? No. I hope they do, but I know that all mankind is typically corrupt. If they produce guidance, I will read and consider it. If it is truthful, great! I learned something new. But if it doesn't make sense, I set it aside.

How do I trust then, myself? You made a very good point about hearing various arguments that sound good, but then one might later realize are not so great after all. It reminds me of this proverb:

Proverbs 18:17 He who states his case first seems right, until his rival comes and cross-examines him.

I don't know about your age, but I'm 56 yrs. I have been jerked around enough that I finally feel fairly stable on my own two feet. When I did my professional training, we would spend a few months with a trainer who would insist that things were just a certain way and that we all had to do things exactly as they did. Then we would move on to another trainer who would emphasize a different and sometimes conflicting way. Frustrating! One quickly learns that the conflict can be resolved by looking up the information ones-self from reliable sources, following written guidelines, and when questioned, be ready to stand your ground and defend one's decisions based on logic and data.

Do I think I know always better than others, when a question comes up? No. But I know how to look for answers, to weigh their relative merits, and to make a decision. Do I make mistakes this way? Yes, but this is the process of learning. We act with the best information we have, and be ready to change when better information is found.

So in conclusion, I don't trust organizations because I feel ungodly people work their ways into positions of power, or are more vulnerable to attack by our foes. I don't TRUST my own decisions, but I trust them more than some decision from some committee. And ultimately, I daily pray that God will bring wisdom to my mind, or bring me into contact with others that can help me understand the right way to act.

I don't know if that will help you or not.

Best wishes,

Kevin

 

[KevinT]

If you had been born in a Jewish community, you would likely be loyal to that camp.

Stop right there! If what you wrote were true then no one would change, ever!

Ahh, but change is hard. And I find that adults (myself included) are stuck in their ways and often won't change.

KT

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The problem is that we live in a world filled with ungodly people who love to put themselves into positions of power.

Among those ungodly power seekers is us. After all, why do we want to be right? Isn't it so that we can tell everybody how we discovered this new and unique truth that they need to believe so that they will be in the group that knows the plan! Or if not exactly that then something like it. We shouldn't focus on all the external threats that drive us to become lone theologians who think that we have a monopoly on truth. We should learn to trust because trust and belief combine to become faith, and it is faith that makes a person's religion become real enough to meet Jesus. We need a community otherwise we'll never learn to trust.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Ahh, but change is hard. And I find that adults (myself included) are stuck in their ways and often won't change.

KT

Trust forces change, when I trust the wisdom of the community and willingly submit to the community's deliberations and their wisdom above my own private opinions and my own best guesses about what is right, I start to change. Without trust change isn't really possible unless the charge arises out of our own mind from our own reasoning.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Wrong again, Tim. He did not come to "add to it". He came to fulfill it. What happens to a contract when all the requirements of both parties are completely fulfilled? It becomes void, because it no longer has any power; there is nothing for it to cause anyone to do. Jesus completely fulfilled the OT, and in doing so He made it void. Then He established a New Covenant, not a renewal of the Old, in His own blood. As Heb 8:13 says, when God talked about a New Covenant in Jeremiah 31, He made the OC obsolete, and what He had made obsolete was ready to disappear.

Doug , all you have said in this thread is wrong, Jesus never abolished the commandments, in fact he took them to a higher level, he magnified them by explaining that the commandments are not only applied and visible externally but they also must be internal, he gave us examples.

In the New King James Version (NKJV), there are a couple of key passages where Jesus emphasizes the importance of the internal, heart-oriented aspects of the law over mere external compliance. Here are a couple of verses that illustrate this concept:

Matthew 5:17-20 (Jesus fulfills the Law)​

In this passage, Jesus speaks about the relationship between His coming and the law:

Matthew 5:17-20 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus affirms the enduring validity of the law, but He also calls for a deeper righteousness that surpasses the external, legalistic righteousness of the Pharisees. The Pharisees were known for their strict observance of the law in outward form, but Jesus' message points to the inner transformation that the law was always intended to promote. Below you will find a few examples;

Matthew 5:21-22 (On Anger)​

Jesus magnifies the law regarding murder by emphasizing the internal attitude of anger:

Matthew 5:21-22 (NKJV)
21 "You have heard that it was said of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire."

Jesus shows here that the commandment "You shall not murder" goes beyond just the physical act of killing; it includes the inner attitudes like anger and contempt that lead to violence. This highlights that God is concerned with the heart, not just outward behavior.

Matthew 5:27-28 (On Adultery)​

Jesus explains that the command against adultery is not merely about the external act but about lustful thoughts:

Matthew 5:27-28 (NKJV)
27 "You have heard that it was said of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

In this teaching, Jesus emphasizes that sin starts in the heart. Lustful thoughts are equivalent to the external sin of adultery in God's eyes, magnifying the law by focusing on the internal motivations.

Matthew 23:25-28 (Jesus Denounces the Pharisees)​

In the verses below, Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for focusing on external appearances while neglecting the internal condition of the heart, this is just a sample of jesus rebuke of the pharisees;

Matthew 23:25-28 (NKJV)
25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."

Jesus, by these verses condemns the Pharisees for their focus on outward ritual and appearance while neglecting the more important matter of inner purity and righteousness. The heart is where true righteousness begins. It is why it is important to remember that Love is the basis for the 10 Commandments also called the Moral law also called in the bible, the Covenant.

Peace

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Who on earth is this "saint" Paul person. Every person who is in Christ is a saint. So why would you feel the need to give him a title or moniker that Scripture gives to ALL who are in Christ?

All of the OT points to Jesus as the fulfillment of the many predictions and prophecies found there. It is not the moral code, or the commandments, or the theocratic structure in the OT that points to salvation, but the person of Jesus Christ. It is not the OT Scriptures that point to salvation, but the wisdom we find there that brings us to Christ who is the salvation of the world.

do you think you are a saint going against Jesus words about the Commandments?

 

[timothyu]

"He came to fulfill it."

What was the "it"? The will of God.
How did He fulfill it? He was/is it. He brought about the Kingdom which is it.
Nothing changed other than form. The will of God was, and still is, the basis of the scriptures old and new. It has existed and been rejected since the Garden.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug , all you have said in this thread is wrong,

That is a pretty bold statement that is absolutely wrong. I have made many statements in this thread that are undeniably true. So for you to claim that "ALL" that I have said in this thread is wrong is a lie for no other purpose than sensationalism.

Jesus never abolished the commandments, in fact he took them to a higher level, he magnified them by explaining that the commandments are not only applied and visible externally but they also must be internal, he gave us examples.

In the New King James Version (NKJV), there are a couple of key passages where Jesus emphasizes the importance of the internal, heart-oriented aspects of the law over mere external compliance. Here are a couple of verses that illustrate this concept:

Matthew 5:17-20 (Jesus fulfills the Law)​

In this passage, Jesus speaks about the relationship between His coming and the law:


Jesus affirms the enduring validity of the law, but He also calls for a deeper righteousness that surpasses the external, legalistic righteousness of the Pharisees. The Pharisees were known for their strict observance of the law in outward form, but Jesus' message points to the inner transformation that the law was always intended to promote. Below you will find a few examples;

Matthew 5:21-22 (On Anger)​

Jesus magnifies the law regarding murder by emphasizing the internal attitude of anger:

Jesus shows here that the commandment "You shall not murder" goes beyond just the physical act of killing; it includes the inner attitudes like anger and contempt that lead to violence. This highlights that God is concerned with the heart, not just outward behavior.

Matthew 5:27-28 (On Adultery)​

Jesus explains that the command against adultery is not merely about the external act but about lustful thoughts:

In this teaching, Jesus emphasizes that sin starts in the heart. Lustful thoughts are equivalent to the external sin of adultery in God's eyes, magnifying the law by focusing on the internal motivations.

Matthew 23:25-28 (Jesus Denounces the Pharisees)​

In the verses below, Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for focusing on external appearances while neglecting the internal condition of the heart, this is just a sample of jesus rebuke of the pharisees;

Jesus, by these verses condemns the Pharisees for their focus on outward ritual and appearance while neglecting the more important matter of inner purity and righteousness. The heart is where true righteousness begins. It is why it is important to remember that Love is the basis for the 10 Commandments also called the Moral law also called in the bible, the Covenant.

Peace

Yes, Jesus took many of the individual laws from the Old Covenant and expounded on them, making them a part of the New Covenant, and emphasizing their inner, spiritual nature over the physical nature the Jews (especially the Pharisees) had focused on. But any of the laws that He did not emphasize, or restate into the New Covenant were not included in the New Covenant.

Your last phrase there is key. The ten commandments are called "the covenant", and this Old Covenant (which was given at Mt Sinai) was removed and to be cast out like Hagar (according to Gal 4:21-31). All of the Old Covenant, from the ten commandments, to the sacrificial system laws, to the priesthood laws, to the dietary laws, all of it is encompassed in the phrases "the Law" and " the Covenant", and ALL of it was removed by Christ when He fulfilled it.

 

[timothyu]

and ALL of it was removed by Christ when He fulfilled it.

Jesus gave us two commandments that were a condensed version of the ten. He did indeed fulfil them but He also commanded us to live by them.

 

[Doug Brents]

do you think you are a saint going against Jesus words about the Commandments?

I do not go "against Jesus' words about the commandments". And yes, I am a saint.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

That is a pretty bold statement that is absolutely wrong. I have made many statements in this thread that are undeniably true. So for you to claim that "ALL" that I have said in this thread is wrong is a lie for no other purpose than sensationalism.

Yes, Jesus took many of the individual laws from the Old Covenant and expounded on them, making them a part of the New Covenant, and emphasizing their inner, spiritual nature over the physical nature the Jews (especially the Pharisees) had focused on. But any of the laws that He did not emphasize, or restate into the New Covenant were not included in the New Covenant.

Your last phrase there is key. The ten commandments are called "the covenant", and this Old Covenant (which was given at Mt Sinai) was removed and to be cast out like Hagar (according to Gal 4:21-31). All of the Old Covenant, from the ten commandments, to the sacrificial system laws, to the priesthood laws, to the dietary laws, all of it is encompassed in the phrases "the Law" and " the Covenant", and ALL of it was removed by Christ when He fulfilled it.

Doug, the New Covenant is deeply connected to the Old Covenant, through the Ten Commandments, which are the heart of God’s moral law. It brings God’s law into the hearts of believers, empowering them to live according to His will.

The Old Covenant, established on Mount Sinai, was defined by the Ten Commandments. In Deuteronomy 4:13, it is written:

“So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.” (NKJV)

The Ten Commandments were the very terms of the covenant between God and His people, marking them as His own.

In Jeremiah 31:31-33, (Paul quoted from this) God promises a new covenant:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant... not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers... But this is the covenant that I will make: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts.” (NKJV)

God reveals that the New Covenant will internalize His law. Unlike the Old Covenant, where the law was external, the New Covenant places it directly in the hearts and minds of believers. This transformation enables God's people to live according to His commandments, not out of obligation, but out of an inner change brought about by the Holy Spirit.

The New Covenant is not just for Israel; it extends to all people. Jeremiah 31:34 speaks to this universal promise:

“No more shall every man teach his neighbor... for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest... For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (NKJV)

The New Covenant offers forgiveness and the intimate knowledge of God to everyone, Jew and Gentile alike. It’s a covenant of grace, where God's law is no longer just an external command but is internalized by those who trust in Him.

The New Covenant internalizes God’s moral Law the10 Commandments and empowers believers to live according to His commandments, which are now written on their hearts. And this promise of grace, forgiveness, and transformation is available to all, Jew and Gentile, who trust in God's work through Christ.

What I wrote is from scripture and NOT an interpretation, the words of the bible here quoted are clear and true.

Blessings

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, the New Covenant is deeply connected to the Old Covenant, through the Ten Commandments, which are the heart of God’s moral law. It brings God’s law into the hearts of believers, empowering them to live according to His will.

The Old Covenant, established on Mount Sinai, was defined by the Ten Commandments. In Deuteronomy 4:13, it is written:

“So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.” (NKJV)

The Ten Commandments were the very terms of the covenant between God and His people, marking them as His own.

Yes, and they were given at Mt. Sinai. And Gal 4:24 & 30 says specifically that the covenant that was given at Mt Sinai was to be cast out.

In Jeremiah 31:31-33, (Paul quoted from this) God promises a new covenant:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant... not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers... But this is the covenant that I will make: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts.” (NKJV)

God reveals that the New Covenant will internalize His law. Unlike the Old Covenant, where the law was external, the New Covenant places it directly in the hearts and minds of believers. This transformation enables God's people to live according to His commandments, not out of obligation, but out of an inner change brought about by the Holy Spirit.

The New Covenant is not just for Israel; it extends to all people. Jeremiah 31:34 speaks to this universal promise:

“No more shall every man teach his neighbor... for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest... For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (NKJV)

The New Covenant offers forgiveness and the intimate knowledge of God to everyone, Jew and Gentile alike. It’s a covenant of grace, where God's law is no longer just an external command but is internalized by those who trust in Him.

The New Covenant internalizes God’s moral Law the10 Commandments and empowers believers to live according to His commandments, which are now written on their hearts. And this promise of grace, forgiveness, and transformation is available to all, Jew and Gentile, who trust in God's work through Christ.

What I wrote is from scripture and NOT an interpretation, the words of the bible here quoted are clear and true.

Blessings

Yes, the laws of God are internalized by the Spirit who lives within us. But it is not the OT that He brings. That law was cast out like Hagar. The Holy Spirit brings God's pure and perfect law within us, and it does not include things like dietary restrictions, sabbath worship, animal sacrifices, etc.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Doug, I assure you you that the words of the O.T. and Jesus are clear, the new covenant is the 10 commandments but put in our hearts like it is written. Many confuse some of Paul verses, they are difficult to understand and need absolutely full context. I will post about the new covenant a text I have been researching for awhile now, hopefully today so we all can discuss further. I know I repeat myself but there is only one truth.

about the Hagar and Sarah allegory Paul mentioned , there may be to my understanding a problem with this, I will analyze and explain elsewhere.

Please believe Christ above all else in case of doubt, you will never fail if you do this.

Blessings brother.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Doug, I have posted a text in a new thread about the new and old covenant, please see link;

The New Covenant Is The same as the Old Covenant but Internalized in our hearts

The concept of the New Covenant has often been misunderstood. Many believe it represents a departure from the laws of the Old Covenant, claiming that God’s commandments were abolished or replaced. However, this interpretation conflicts with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the foundational...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, I assure you you

I appreciate your assurance, but your contradict Scripture, so please forgive me if I don't rely on your assurance.

that the words of the O.T. and Jesus are clear, the new covenant is the 10 commandments but put in our hearts like it is written. Many confuse some of Paul verses, they are difficult to understand and need absolutely full context. I will post about the new covenant a text I have been researching for awhile now, hopefully today so we all can discuss further. I know I repeat myself but there is only one truth.

about the Hagar and Sarah allegory Paul mentioned , there may be to my understanding a problem with this, I will analyze and explain elsewhere.

Please believe Christ above all else in case of doubt, you will never fail if you do this.

Blessings brother.

There is no doubt in Scripture that the Old Covenant was completely, wholly, and in all ways fulfilled and made obsolete. In the passage to which you refer (Heb 8) that says that God will write His laws within our hearts, verse 13 is very clear that in Jeremiah God says that a New Covenant is coming, and when He says New, He makes the Old obsolete. And the obsolete was then getting ready to disappear (as it did when Jesus fulfilled it).