What are the wages of sin?

[RETS]

Timothew -

It's taken from the fact that Christ said "and the smoke from their torment will rise forever."

Now, I am aware that there are people out there that dispute the meaning of "forever" as well as eternity- Just as there are people who put a sense of time on or within eternity. Regardless, I do not agree with this.

Nor do I really agree with the idea that "death" is going to basically be the end of existence for those who see the second death. It's very simple- death is separation. The first death was separation from earth and the physical realm. The second is separation from God.

There is no end to our existence; just a transference or a transition. As such, people who suffer the second death will still very much exist- But they will be separated from God. This, in and of itself, is torment enough.


Basically, there is no right or wrong answer when asking if it's going to be death or torment, because both are correct.

 

[Timothew]

Timothew -
It's taken from the fact that Christ said "and the smoke from their torment will rise forever."

Perhaps you need to check your facts? When did Christ say that?

The statement you quote is used in the bible 3 times.
By John in Revelation 14 and is spoken by an angel, not Christ.
By John in Rev 19 and is spoken by the multitude, not Christ.

John's usage of this phrase comes from Isaiah 34. All of John's Revelation is driven by images from the old testament. So if you se how the image was used in the old testament, you can see what John meant.
Here is Isaiah 34, with "the smoke of their torment will rise forever used in context.
1Come near, you nations, and listen;
pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
the world, and all that comes out of it!
2The Lord is angry with all nations;
his wrath is upon all their armies.
He will totally destroy them,
he will give them over to slaughter.
3Their slain will be thrown out,
their dead bodies will send up a stench;
the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
5My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
the people I have totally destroyed.
6The sword of the Lord is bathed in blood,
it is covered with fat—
the blood of lambs and goats,
fat from the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
and a great slaughter in Edom.
7And the wild oxen will fall with them,
the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
and the dust will be soaked with fat.
8For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.

You can see from this that the smoke rising forever signifies that the object is totally destroyed. So these passages agree with Paul, that the wages of sin is death. Also notice that this passage is referring to Edom. Smoke is not rising from Edom today, so you know that this language is symbolic of total destruction. Edom is totally destroyed.

Now, I am aware that there are people out there that dispute the meaning of "forever" as well as eternity- Just as there are people who put a sense of time on or within eternity. Regardless, I do not agree with this.

You don't need to agree that aion means "an age", or that aionian means "pertaining to an age" to agree that death is forever unless a person is resurrected from death. The meaning of forever was never a part of this thread. So whether you agree the meaning of forever or not, the wages of sin are still death.

Nor do I really agree with the idea that "death" is going to basically be the end of existence for those who see the second death. It's very simple- death is separation. The first death was separation from earth and the physical realm. The second is separation from God.

You can believe this if you want to. I perfer to get my beliefs from the bible. Can you show me the passage in the bible that says "death is separation"? According to the bible the first death is losing your life. This ends with the resurrection. The second death is also losing your life. There is no resurrection from the second death. The second death is not "living forever in hell", death is the opposite of "living forever".

There is no end to our existence; just a transference or a transition. As such, people who suffer the second death will still very much exist- But they will be separated from God. This, in and of itself, is torment enough.

Are you aware of the first person who said this?
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. (Genesis 3:4)
This was a lie when the serpent said it to Eve, and it is still a lie. People die, this is a proven fact. Dead people are not in torment, they are dead.

Basically, there is no right or wrong answer when asking if it's going to be death or torment, because both are correct.

According to the bible, the wages of sin is death.

 

[Timothew]

Over 90% of people responding to this poll said that the wages of sin is death and only 2 people said eternal torment in hell. It is encouraging to me that the false dogma of eternal torment is dying out of the churches.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The poll results are the result of the forum they were posted in. Only in the heretic forum (unothodox theology) could such poll results be.

 

[WillieH]

The poll results are the result of the forum they were posted in. Only in the heretic forum (unothodox theology) could such poll results be.

I think that WHO IS, and WHO IS NOT, an" HERETIC" is a matter of opinion... ...methinks YOU be the HERETIC brother LM...

As I see it, those who teach HELL, in an EVIL attempt to INSTILL FEAR in those made in the IMAGE of GOD, to which the Bible notes that GOD (who is LOVE) is about CASTING OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- are CONTRARY to GOD in that activity,

As well, THOSE (SUCH AS YOURSELF) using this TAINTED position (threatening the WORLD that GOD so ETERNALLY LOVES, ...with "HELL") also includes MANY who BELIEVE in CHRIST but ...oppose ORTHODOXY, essentially THREATENS the children of GOD, which SCRIPTURE ALSO speaks out AGAINST -- James 3:9-10 -- are indeed the "HERETICS"... being "HERETICAL" against the BIBLE itself...

The word HERETIC... is (according to Websters dictionary), to DISSENT from an "ACCEPTED" belief...

That there are MANY (including me) that do not believe there is a "HELL"... therefore makes you an HERETIC to their/my "ACCEPTED BELIEF" that HELL does not exist... capiesh?

Heretic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


So much for "heretics"... the suggestion of it (and other doctrines), is nothing but CHURCHIANITY'S RELIGIOUS version of name calling...

Just because you "believe"that a given observation of SCRIPTURE is considered by YOU to be "TRUTH"... (the existence of HELL for example), ...DOES NOT therefore mark that observation as "TRUTH" on the basis that YOU believe it ...



PEACE...


...willieH

 

[Timothew]

The poll results are the result of the forum they were posted in. Only in the heretic forum (unothodox theology) could such poll results be.

The Forum owners said that annihilationism could only be discussed in the UT Forum. That is the only reason why the poll was conducted here. If the Forum owners said that you could only say "Christ is Lord" in the UT Forum, I would make a poll that said "Is Christ the Lord?" and post it in the UT Forum. Get it?

I would love to discuss Conditional Immortality and Annihilationism in "General Theology" but that is forbidden by CF administration.

You resort to namecalling whenever you can't support your position with logic and scripture. It's further proof of the weakness of the Eternal Torment position.

 

[WillieH]

The Forum owners said that annihilationism could only be discussed in the UT Forum. That is the only reason why the poll was conducted here. If the Forum owners said that you could only say "Christ is Lord" in the UT Forum, I would make a poll that said "Is Christ the Lord?" and post it in the UT Forum. Get it?

I would love to discuss Conditional Immortality and Annihilationism in "General Theology" but that is forbidden by CF administration.

You resort to namecalling whenever you can't support your position with logic and scripture. It's further proof of the weakness of the Eternal Torment position.

...well said brother!


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Perhaps you need to check your facts? When did Christ say that?

The statement you quote is used in the bible 3 times.
By John in Revelation 14 and is spoken by an angel, not Christ.
By John in Rev 19 and is spoken by the multitude, not Christ.

John's usage of this phrase comes from Isaiah 34. All of John's Revelation is driven by images from the old testament. So if you se how the image was used in the old testament, you can see what John meant.
Here is Isaiah 34, with "the smoke of their torment will rise forever used in context.
1Come near, you nations, and listen;
pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
the world, and all that comes out of it!
2The Lord is angry with all nations;
his wrath is upon all their armies.
He will totally destroy them,
he will give them over to slaughter.
3Their slain will be thrown out,
their dead bodies will send up a stench;
the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
5My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
the people I have totally destroyed.
6The sword of the Lord is bathed in blood,
it is covered with fat—
the blood of lambs and goats,
fat from the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
and a great slaughter in Edom.
7And the wild oxen will fall with them,
the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
and the dust will be soaked with fat.
8For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.

You can see from this that the smoke rising forever signifies that the object is totally destroyed. So these passages agree with Paul, that the wages of sin is death. Also notice that this passage is referring to Edom. Smoke is not rising from Edom today, so you know that this language is symbolic of total destruction. Edom is totally destroyed.

This is GREAT brother!

Thank you so much, for posting it...

This further supports my contention that we are IN the LAKE of FIRE, now...

With each EVIL that is manifest (by each of us), ...TORMENT (of one form or another) arises (according to YHVH) ...as we REAP what we SOW -- Gal 6:8

And that EVIL is DESTROYED thereby, ...never to BE again, and the TORMENT that is experienced as noted here -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- is a witness unto itself to each of us, which "RISES" forever... as SMOKE is the by-product of the DESTRUCTION done by FIRE...

That "smoke" being the TESTIMONY of our TORMENT in this realm, which shall NEVER occur outside this realm (once it is ended and complete), ...FOREVER!

The "SMOKE" FOREVER testifying in it's witness, of our (sown & reaped) "TORMENT" is that which takes us unto DEATH, ...the resulting "WAGES" within that TORMENT, paid in the manifestation of LIFE eventually being removed from us, once that TORMENT is suffered -- Heb 2:9 -- and in our SUFFERING have we been manifest into the IMAGE of CHRIST which was MADE PERFECT through SUFFERING!

...WOW!


We "SUFFER" (are tormented), ...sowing evil/sin and the attached TORMENT that comes with it, ...which is that we have reaped ...as we travel the pathway unto death, because we deserved it, ...SUFFERING as did CHRIST, ...which also serves as the needed portion of being shapen in the IMAGE of CHRIST who also "SUFFERED"... which did not deserve it...

Saved by FIRE... which IS God -- Heb 12:29 -- 1 Cor 3:15 -- as that FIRE removes the EVIL and SIN from each of us, ...the SMOKE, the WITNESS of our TORMENT here in this realm, ...which leads us unto the LOSS (of LIFE = the WAGES of SIN) ...that accompanies the INDULGENCE of EVIL and SIN...

Each of those EVIL/SINFUL moments forever removed from us... by the FIRE of GOD which WE are AMIDST:



Heb 12:29 -- for ...OUR GOD... IS... a CONSUMING FIRE...

Acts 17:28 -- for ...IN HIM...[the CONSUMING FIRE] ...we live, and move and have our BEING...



SUFFERING is a needed part in the "formula of PERFECTION" according to SCRIPTURE -- Heb 2:9

I can't thank you enough! As I see it, ...GOD has used you mightily on this day brother! I thank HIM for leading me unto your words, and YOU for being a faithful servant which has been LED by Him, in posting this portion of Scripture!

This is SCRIPTURE (presented by you), which is revealing/interpreting the spiritual and symbolic meaning of -- Rev 14:11 -- the REVELATION [revealing] of JESUS CHRIST -- the WORD of GOD, ...which KNOWS "Good and Evil"...


Much of His PEACE be unto you, this day!


...willieH

 

[Sieben]

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The wicked are resurrected, OP.

It is appointed for men to die once, but then the judgment.

It is not die, and then nothing. There is a judgment.

 

[s8m6p]

A five-year old could read this verse, and have enough innocence and common sense to know that the wages of sin is death, without injecting any sort of pre-conceived notions into his understanding of this verse. Only when man, who is corrupt, attempts to make the Bible say what he wants it to say, does the meaning of the Bible become corrupt, and then falsehoods and confusing nonsense are propagated down through the centuries and interpreted and expounded upon by well-meaning tecahers, and believers become ensnared in a web of lies without realizing it. The only reason you will receive so many voluminous answers to your poll, which undoubtedly will appeal to concordances, commentaries, and semantics, is that everyone assumes that what he believes is THE truth, and that all others who believe something different are wrong. The only reason they need such aids to help them understand the Bible, is that they don't have the Spirit of Truth dwelling in them. Such voluminous replies will come from those who have sunk deeply into the abyss of their own spiritual pride, and who are incapable of believing something different than what they already believe, simply because they are comfortable with the knowledge they have already attained. That is why there are so many divisions among churches. Each denomination, and many individual believers as well, assumes it already has all the spiritual truth there is to discover, and so it sits and stagnates. Additionally, the fact that a certain belief has been held for a certain period of time, whether for only a generation or for centuries, appeals to the finite minds of men in their efforts to reconcile that which cannot be reconciled with the eternal word of God.

 

[Timothew]

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The wicked are resurrected, OP.

It is appointed for men to die once, but then the judgment.

It is not die, and then nothing. There is a judgment.

We're saying the first death is temporary, as people are raised from death on Judgment Day. Then the judgment and people either go to eternal life or the second death, which is final and eternal.

 

[WillieH]

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The wicked are resurrected, OP.

It is appointed for men to die once, but then the judgment.

It is not die, and then nothing. There is a judgment.

YES, and according to JESUS (who IS the "TRUTH") ...said JUDGMENT (of this WORLD) is taking place... NOW -- John 12:31

The "death" that IS appointed, ...is the DEATH of the SOUL that sinneth -- Ez 18:20 -- which takes MAN OUT of innocence, ...into the NATURAL state of DEATH -- Matt 8:22 -- 1 Cor 15:46 -- then within this DEATH, is the JUDGMENT of ALL WORKS that take place AS they ARE each manifested [NOW!]-- 1 Cor 3:11-15

Eve did not SIN when she ate of the fruit, which she was COMMANDED not to eat...

She SINNED, when she sought and THOUGHT that which the FRUIT might avail to her as is revealed by CHRIST, within this teaching -- Matt 5:28

One SINS against GOD ...NOT just in the fleshly ACT of SIN, but also in the MIND (THOUGHTFUL consideration) of disobedience... thereby the "CONSIDERING of SIN", ..is SIN...

For WHATSOEVER is NOT of FAITH (faithful believing in the WORD and COMMANDS of GOD), is ..SIN -- Rom 14:23 -- the THOUGHTS of MAN, are either RIGHTEOUS (faithful) or SINFUL (disobedient)...




PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

We're saying the first death is temporary, as people are raised from death on Judgment Day. Then the judgment and people either go to eternal life or the second death, which is final and eternal.

Sorry to take exception to this brother... but there is no such thing as "ETERNAL DEATH"...

ALL DEATH is temporary... The ETERNAL is an "ALWAYS IS" situation, without variation. DEATH only occupies this realm... and it is DEATH which CHRIST overcame... ALL DEATH in ALL THINGS.


CHRIST came to "take away the SIN of the WORLD" -- John 1:29

If indeed He DID take away the SIN of the WORLD... which is ASSERTED by this verse... then there is NOTHING left to condemn ANY of us -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- Col 1:20 -- 1 John 2:3-6



CHRIST ...IS... the SAVIOR of the WORLD -- 1 John 4:14 -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- either He accomplished this mission (which is VICTORY), or He did not... And whatever HE ...IS... He ALWAYS ...IS... without variation -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8

IOW... If He IS the SAVIOR of the WORLD -- 1 Tim 4:10 -- 1 Tim 2:4 -- then, should part or most of the WORLD at any time NOT be SAVED, then this violates His ETERNAL state of SAVIOR which "state" is unchanging.


I maintain that He indeed was COMPLETELY VICTORIOUS, ...and DID "save the WORLD"...

His MISSION was to SEEK and TO SAVE those who were LOST -- Luke 19:10 -- if He does not SAVE ALL (for ALL are LOST), then this mission is UNACCOMPLISHED and completely disagrees with this Scripture:

Isaiah 55:11 -- So shall my WORD be that goeth fourth out of My mouth; it shall NOT return unto Me ...VOID, but it shall ACCOMPLISH that which I please, and it SHALL PROSPER in the thing whereunto I SENT IT.



PEACE...


...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

WillieH, your last message was unusually short and so I was able to wade through it, which I can't do when you go on and on and on like a blowhard windbag. So my question to you from your previous message is, are you a Universalists?

 

[LutheranMafia]

This thread is not overrun with extremely lengthy messages that I never read more than a few lines from. So I would rather address you, Timothew, here.

You said that you don't know where I come up with this from in your last reply to me. The key here is hope and Heaven. Your focus is on Hell rather Heaven, even to the point of accusing me of believing in spirits in the underworld, rather than on the real source of my faith, which is an afterlife in Heaven.

My question to you is, what brings you hope? Does the resurrection after thousands of years of non-existence really bring you hope? Do you have deceased loved ones that you consider to be in the state of non-existent limbo that you believe in, and if so how does their age-long non-existence bring you any sense of hope?

But our citizenship is in Heaven.
Philippians 3:20
​

I brought this up before, along with a lot of other verses about the Kingdom of Heaven, but I want to focus on this one in particular this time. What does it means to be citizens of Heaven when, in your view, we will never ever go to Heaven, not after death and not after the resurrection? How can we be citizens of a place that we have never been to and will never go to?

 

[Timothew]

This thread is not overrun with extremely lengthy messages that I never read more than a few lines from. So I would rather address you, Timothew, here.

You said that you don't know where I come up with this from in your last reply to me. The key here is hope and Heaven. Your focus is on Hell rather Heaven, even to the point of accusing me of believing in spirits in the underworld, rather than on the real source of my faith, which is an afterlife in Heaven.

My question to you is, what brings you hope? Does the resurrection after thousands of years of non-existence really bring you hope? Do you have deceased loved ones that you consider to be in the state of non-existent limbo that you believe in, and if so how does their age-long non-existence bring you any sense of hope?

But our citizenship is in Heaven.
Philippians 3:20
​

I brought this up before, along with a lot of other verses about the Kingdom of Heaven, but I want to focus on this one in particular this time. What does it means to be citizens of Heaven when, in your view, we will never ever go to Heaven, not after death and not after the resurrection? How can we be citizens of a place that we have never been to and will never go to?

Well, thanks for asking. I want you to know about the hope that I have, and I want you to know about those who died and will die before I do.

I believe that Jesus actually died, and that he truly rose again. When he returns, he will also raise up those who have died. They will live again. If I have not already died by the time he returns, I will also be changed and have immortality and live with the Lord forever.

1 Thess 4:11-18

 

[LutheranMafia]

Well, thanks for asking. I want you to know about the hope that I have, and I want you to know about those who died and will die before I do.

I believe that Jesus actually died, and that he truly rose again. When he returns, he will also raise up those who have died. They will live again. If I have not already died by the time he returns, I will also be changed and have immortality and live with the Lord forever.

1 Thess 4:11-18

But that doesn't answer my question about what it means to be a citizen of Heaven. If you have never been to Heaven and will never go to Heaven, then how can you be a citizen of Heaven?

I understand that your hope is in the resurrection, but you also did not answer my question about if you have deceased loved ones. What is your hope for them, in the immediate future, not in the distant future, if you believe that they are in a state of non-existent limbo? What is the hope in believing in a state of non-existent limbo? A thousand years in the future is no comfort to a grieving wife who has lost her husband in the present.

 

[Timothew]

But that doesn't answer my question about what it means to be a citizen of Heaven. If you have never been to Heaven and will never go to Heaven, then how can you be a citizen of Heaven?

I understand that your hope is in the resurrection, but you also did not answer my question about if you have deceased loved ones. What is your hope for them, in the immediate future, not in the distant future, if you believe that they are in a state of non-existent limbo? What is the hope in believing in a state of non-existent limbo? A thousand years in the future is no comfort to a grieving wife who has lost her husband in the present.

After I posted this, I realized that I didn't fully answer your questiion. Then after that I was feeling ill and couldn't answer until now.

So now you understand my faith and hope in Christ for eternal life?
I hope that is settled so that you and I can move forward and discuss these other things. As I understand it, you have two remaining questions.

1. How can I believe that I have a citizenship in heaven, having never been to heaven and trusting Christ for a physical resurrection?
2. What about those who have died? How is it any comfort that they have to wait for resurrection?

First, my answer to these questions does not negate the truth of the scriptures, does it? If I don't fully understand all of the details of the bible, does that mean we won't be resurrected on the last day?

As I understand it, God is in heaven. Christ ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, the father. I don't uinderstand how this works, but this is what the bible says, so I accept it.
In Christ, I have an inheritance from God. I am adopted as a son of God.
God is in heaven so as his son, I am a citizen of heaven.

2nd question. It is a comfort to know that those I love who have died will live again. How can that not be a comfort? They are dead, but it is as if they are asleep. They will "awake" and live again. In the meantime we just have to be patient. Patience is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

If your mom is really tired and she goes to bed before you do, do you grieve? Probably not, because you know that she will wake up in the morning and you will see her again.

So should we, as Christians, grieve when someone dies as if we had no hope at all that they will live again? We are sad, because we won't see them for a long time. But under that, there is joy because we know that we will eventually be with them again.

 

[Timothew]

LutheranMafia,
Can I ask you why you believe the wages of sin is not death when the bible says that the wages of sin is death?

 

[LutheranMafia]

LutheranMafia,
Can I ask you why you believe the wages of sin is not death when the bible says that the wages of sin is death?

I do believe that the wages of sin is death, you just don't like my definition of death. Death is not an absolute end, it is a transition to another state of existence.