What are the wages of sin?

[Timothew]

Where does the bible teach the spirit is tormented apart from the body or soul?

It doesn't. LM has built up a theory about this.

 

[Ed Bana]

This is the way it works. God's Word speaks and tell us something. It is suppose to mean something and we should respond to what it says. In your case you have God all figured out in your religous man made box and everything must fit to your bias.

God wants you have spiritual ears to hear. Not religious ears to reject.

I'm not trying to hide anything. You brought up the original greek. I posted the original greek. I was completely transparent in my word for word translation, because not everyone here can read greek.

I did address your claim that the bible says there are three different deaths. I asked you for proof that the bible says that, and you couldn't. That should have been the end of the three deaths nonsense, but you are unable to admit that the bible doesn't ever say "there are three different kinds of death."

 

[Ed Bana]

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death
　
Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually. A dead man cannot hear, see, touch, feel, etc. That is especially true of a spiritual dead man.


1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 7:　24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

 

[Timothew]

This is the way it works. God's Word speaks and tell us something. It is suppose to mean something and we should respond to what it says. In your case you have God all figured out in your religous man made box and everything must fit to your bias.

God wants you have spiritual ears to hear. Not religious ears to reject.

So I should just accept whatever it is you have to say. What will the world do after you die? Where will we go to for truth then? God is God and you are his prophet. Teach me, oh knower of all knowledge! My ears are open, give me your holy truth. Let me clean my dirty ears first so I am fit to hear the blessed truth from your holy lips!


There, I cleaned the nasty gunk out, my ears are open and ready to hear God's Holy Prophet Ed.

Shut up everyone, Ed Speaks God's Words! Holy Holy Holy is Ed!

 

[Timothew]

My last post was meant in a sacastic tone, in case that didn't come through.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Where does the bible teach the spirit is tormented apart from the body or soul?

...uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:12-13
​

Twice dead refers to the second death--the death of the soul. Yet still they live and wander in eternal darkness as soulless spirits.

 

[LutheranMafia]

So I should just accept whatever it is you have to say. What will the world do after you die? Where will we go to for truth then? God is God and you are his prophet. Teach me, oh knower of all knowledge! My ears are open, give me your holy truth. Let me clean my dirty ears first so I am fit to hear the blessed truth from your holy lips!


There, I cleaned the nasty gunk out, my ears are open and ready to hear God's Holy Prophet Ed.

Shut up everyone, Ed Speaks God's Words! Holy Holy Holy is Ed!

Starting to have you fill of Crazy Ed, aye?

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi LH...

To be an eternal being you have to 'be'. If we literally existed always, (and were not just known by God before we were born because He knows all), then why was I born and how am I responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve? It would imply that everyone who exists ever was around during Eden and that we weren't human then. Their sins should have remained their sins.

Well... the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is the actual LIVING PURPOSE being manifest in this realm...

Salvation for sin, is just a part of that purpose. And YES we were not "human" then... we were YET to be made into the IMAGE of GOD which is MAN, and which KNOWS (COMPLETELY as does GOD and HIS WORD) -- Good and Evil...

If MEN were made "men" by GOD, and were made in the IMAGE of God, which is JESUS CHRIST -- Heb 1:3 -- then GOD is a DIVINE "MAN"... Which indeed, JESUS CHRIST, who NEVER CHANGES -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 -- in fact WAS, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE.


Are you, or do you, ...consider yourself a "son" of God?

If you do... then these verses apply to YOU:

Job 38:4-7 --

4...where was thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? DECLARE IF THOU HAST UNDERSTANDING
5...who had laid the measures thereof, IF THOU KNOWEST, or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6...whereupon the foundation thereof fastened? or who laid the cornerstone thereof? 7...when the morning stars sang together and ---> ALL the ...SONS [#1121 - BEN = son/sons] of GOD... shouted for joy?

We have no recollection of our previous existence to this realm. But if indeed we are EVER a SON (#H1121 -- BEN) of god... then we were PRESENT at the creation of this realm (earth & universe).

Luke 15:11-13 --

11...and He said, a certain man had TWO sons
12...and the YOUNGER of them said to his father, FATHER, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And He divided unto them His LIVING 13...and not many days after the YOUNGER son gathered all together, and took his JOURNEY into a FAR COUNTRY, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.


Okay...

FIRST -- The Father had TWO sons -- 1 Cor 15:45-49 -- ADAM (which became LOST/destroyed = #G622 Apollumi) ...and JESUS -- (which was ALWAYS with the Father - Luke 15:31)

SECOND -- the SON (which became LOST/destroyed), was first, WITH the FATHER (life in the ETERNAL realm of the father), before he became LOST... by JOURNEYING into a FAR COUNTRY (life in this temporal realm)

THIRD -- the SON eventually (after losing ALL/Death -- Luke 15:14) returned to the place HE had LEFT -- Luke 15:18-22


FOURTH -- that which was LOST (son) was FOUND -- Luke 15:32 -- which is the final result of ALL which was IN that "SON"

ALL men are found both ...IN ADAM (in DEATH), and IN CHRIST (in LIFE) -- 1 Cor 15:22


btw... It is my opinion that the book of JOB is a parable which engages each of the SONS of God (which are both -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- IN ADAM/Death -- and IN CHRIST/Life -- John 14:6)...


Of which NONE have ANY recall of the place we occupied in the Eternal realm, because SIN has separated us and our memory of the GARDEN, as we ALL being ...IN ADAM... with HIM, are found ejected from that SPIRIT existence, unto the EARTHY existence -- Gen 3:23-24

--- The OT (to my knowledge) does not ever mention that ADAM in any way, ever recalled being in the GARDEN -- after he was ejected from it.





Peace...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi LM...

...uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:12-13
​

Twice dead refers to the second death--the death of the soul. Yet still they live and wander in eternal darkness as soulless spirits.

FIRST -- I "sort of" disagree... ...our soul does DIE because the WORD says it shall die in those who SIN (which includes everyone) -- Ez 18:20

ADAM was told that he would DIE in the DAY he ate -- Gen 2:17 -- so, believing God's WORD to be TRUTH, we must accept that DEATH occured in the very DAY he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil...

However, ADAM (even though he had "died" by eating) continued to LIVE on and then AGAIN died (a SECOND DEATH) -- Gen 5:5 -- after 930 years had elapsed.

SECOND -- I believe you may have misunderstood the concept of -- Jude 12-13 -- which actually is speaking of the Natural unconverted experience of man... not an ETERNAL destiny of "zombie-ism"... ...that some will "travel"...

There is no basis in the WORD, for this statement: "Yet still they live and wander in eternal darkness as soulless spirits" which is self contradictory. Proposing a kind of "zombie" trip (the "living dead") or something with no Scriptural basis.

There is absolutely NO vision of GRACE (which ABOUNDS MUCH MORE than SIN -- Rom 5:20) within this statement which proposes this horrid and illogical "Stephen King - like" imagination.

The LIVING manifestations of EVIL which are emergent of EVERY HUMAN BEING, are to CEASE, even though they will FOREVER be known... as GOD who does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- shall be (like it or not) ALL in ALL -- 1 Cor 15:22, 28 -- not "all in some"...

ALL (not some) things are reconciled to GOD -- Col 1:20
ALL (not some) men are SAVED by Him -- 1 Tim 2:3-6
ALL (not some) DEATH is destroyed -- 1 Cor 15:26
ALL (not some) SIN is taken away from the WORLD -- John 1:29
ALL (not some) shall BLESS GOD and the Lamb -- Rev 5:13
ALL (not some) are reconciled -- 1 Cor 5:19

ALL (not some)... is the PERFECT number...



Peace...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi brother T...

So I should just accept whatever it is you have to say. What will the world do after you die? Where will we go to for truth then? God is God and you are his prophet. Teach me, oh knower of all knowledge! My ears are open, give me your holy truth. Let me clean my dirty ears first so I am fit to hear the blessed truth from your holy lips!


There, I cleaned the nasty gunk out, my ears are open and ready to hear God's Holy Prophet Ed.

Shut up everyone, Ed Speaks God's Words! Holy Holy Holy is Ed!

Wow! Do you greet new people at church with such mockery? Where did Ed say he KNEW EVERYTHING? I must've missed that...

Is this not the way CHRIST was treated, by the proponents of religion in His day?

I don't get that Ed asked you to "accept" anything, did he? ...seems to me he made firm suggestions to you, but did not make any demands.

Do you not realize that ED could say the very same things to YOU, that YOU just said to him?

What if it turns out, that "ed" is right, brother T?

Guess we ALL are destined to find out! ????


...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

Willie, Ed has been yelling around here on several threads in UT with enourmously long winded posts and refuses to address scripture that clearly contradicts his point of view. It is so intense that Timothew and I who have enormous differences in our beliefs are driven together as strange bedfellows to argue against Ed's much more egregious errors and distortions of the Bible.

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi Ed...

You know there are three deaths in the Bible but you refuse to address these thee deaths. You somehow think by ignore these facts they will go away.

Physical death which all men understand.

Dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1 ) which I call spiritual death or first death.

Second death. Which is first death killed by the second death.

Here is how I see it... (and you are welcome to disagree! )

FIRST DEATH = Sin of ADAM, which removed ALL which is EVERYONE (IN Him -- 1 Cor 15:22) from the Garden and is the DEATH of the SOUL -- Gen 2:17 --Ez 20:18 -- in ALL, ...in the DAY he "ate"


SECOND DEATH = The DEATH of the FLESH which has sinned -- Gen 5:5 --Rev 20:14 -- THIS life is the Lake of FIRE (pur) in which we are tried, as was CHRIST -- Rev 3:18


THIRD DEATH = The final, DEATH of DEATH, which was removed as the LAST ENEMY destroyed -- 1 Cor 15:26 -- from ALL that DIE IN ADAM -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- by the RESURRECTED LIFE of JESUS... He died ONCE for ALL (which died IN ADAM) -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Rom 5:12, 18-20

pEACe...


...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

willieH: Hi Ed...



Here is how I see it... (and you are welcome to disagree! )

FIRST DEATH = Sin of ADAM, which removed ALL which is EVERYONE (IN Him -- 1 Cor 15:22) from the Garden and is the DEATH of the SOUL -- Gen 2:17 --Ez 20:18 -- in ALL, ...in the DAY he "ate"


SECOND DEATH = The DEATH of the FLESH which has sinned -- Gen 5:5 --Rev 20:14 -- THIS life is the Lake of FIRE (pur) in which we are tried, as was CHRIST -- Rev 3:18

I think you have it backwards, the first death is physical death and the second death is soul death. But basically we are in agreement here, except that I don't think Adam died a soul death, he continued to be a "living soul" after the Fall. I see soul death, the second death in the lake of fire, as being turned into a soulless spirit, with neither body nor soul. (Jude 1:12-13)

THIRD DEATH = The final, DEATH of DEATH, which was removed as the LAST ENEMY destroyed -- 1 Cor 15:26 -- from ALL that DIE IN ADAM -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- by the RESURRECTED LIFE of JESUS... He died ONCE for ALL (which died IN ADAM) -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Rom 5:12, 18-20

This I can mostly agree with, although I don't think it should be labeled the third death because it is not something personal. A person does not die this death, so it is not part of a sequence (1,2,3). The first two deaths are personal experiences, what you call the third death is not.

 

[Ed Bana]

​

I have posted this a number of times but this is how I see it. I agree with Lutheran Mafia about not including a third death. Physical death is but an example for us to understand the true meaning how dead dead can be,
The second death is death killed by death
There are three deaths in the Bible.
Physical death which all men understand.
Dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1 ) which I call spiritual death or first death.
Second death. Which is first death killed by the second death.
The fourth horse, the Pale Horse. "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and lo a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6:7-8).

There is a special significance to be attached to the description of the fourth horseman -- he whose name is Death -- and Hell followed with him. Death and Hell are specially linked in the Revelation. And since Christ came and abolished death (II Tim. 1:10) and destroyed him that had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb. 2:14), He now boldly proclaims: "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH" (Rev. 1:18). And since the Christ now possesses both hell and death neither of them ride anywhere except by His authority!

Now let us UNDERSTAND! This horse is given power over the fourth part of the earth-realm, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Sword is God's Word
Hunger is because of all the ketter that killeth preached by Babylon
Beas being or carnal beastly nature.

This "fourth part of the earth" is clearly that portion of earthiness not already dealt with by the three preceding horses. It bespeaks of the conclusion, consummation and termination of the process. It means the final subjugation and destruction of everything within us that is contrary to HIS life and kingdom. And all the instruments necessary to accomplish this are in His hands and at His command.
　
To kill with DEATH

There is an amazing and significant statement in the passage that we do not want to miss. "And power was given unto Him to kill...with death."!

How does one kill with death?

What can this cryptic statement mean?

To kill with death means a death by death. Later on in the book of Revelation the same truth is presented thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of Fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:14). Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire!

"Our God is a consuming fire.

" This fact is extremely IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. Nor is the second death men being tortured forever in the lake of fire.

The Holy Spirit has made it very simple and plain. The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.
That is the Holy Spirit's definition, not mine.

Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, i.e. those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire.

That is the end of death and hell and sin and sinners, for God shall destroy the whole realm of death in the lake of fire.

He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, He shall destroy death in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin in the lake of fire.

How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! God's Kingdom shall rule over all and God Himself shall be All-in-all. There shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell

It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death?

How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape?

Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire -- it is sin and death and hell that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). "And there shall be no more death: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH! "And power was given unto them to kill...with death. " 0, the wonder of it!

　

willieH: Hi Ed...



Here is how I see it... (and you are welcome to disagree! )

FIRST DEATH = Sin of ADAM, which removed ALL which is EVERYONE (IN Him -- 1 Cor 15:22) from the Garden and is the DEATH of the SOUL -- Gen 2:17 --Ez 20:18 -- in ALL, ...in the DAY he "ate"


SECOND DEATH = The DEATH of the FLESH which has sinned -- Gen 5:5 --Rev 20:14 -- THIS life is the Lake of FIRE (pur) in which we are tried, as was CHRIST -- Rev 3:18


THIRD DEATH = The final, DEATH of DEATH, which was removed as the LAST ENEMY destroyed -- 1 Cor 15:26 -- from ALL that DIE IN ADAM -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- by the RESURRECTED LIFE of JESUS... He died ONCE for ALL (which died IN ADAM) -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Rom 5:12, 18-20

pEACe...


...willieH

 

[Ed Bana]

Luthernmafia you have been trying to refute what I say. When I told you the rider on the horse was called death your carnal reply was: "SO".

Then you insulted me with one of the worst personally attack I have ever seen on a forum so un-christian in could only be called total carnal.

You have not refuted a thing I say and then you take some verse in Matthew and try to act like it has some context to the Book of Revelation which there is no connecting.

Willie, Ed has been yelling around here on several threads in UT with enourmously long winded posts and refuses to address scripture that clearly contradicts his point of view. It is so intense that Timothew and I who have enormous differences in our beliefs are driven together as strange bedfellows to argue against Ed's much more egregious errors and distortions of the Bible.

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi LM...


Thanks for your answer... Please know that I do not mean to offend your position within this answer, rather ...to give food for thought unto you to consider.

I think you have it backwards, the first death is physical death and the second death is soul death. But basically we are in agreement here, except that I don't think Adam died a soul death, he continued to be a "living soul" after the Fall.

The most operative words which you use to support your statement above, are "I think" ...as well as "I don't think"...


FIRST --- The best evidence that (physically) LIVING men are dead is found coming from the lips of our Savior, HERE --> Matt 8:22 -- Luke 9:60


SECOND --- Also Scripture is quite firm in stating that the "SOUL that SINNETH" shall DIE -- Ez 18:20 -- How can a "SINNING SOUL", therefore, (as you claim) remain in a LIVING state? -- "I don't think Adam died a soul death, he continued to be a "living soul" after the Fall".


THIRD --- The Scripture is VERY plain and straightforward, that DEATH happens IN the moment of SIN -- Gen 2:17 -- And in this answer, you have not provided the TYPE of Death, which ADAM or any/every other man, experiences IN the moment of SIN.

If it is NOT the "soul" (which is actually that which "SINNED") that DIES, then what pray tell is it that, ..."DIES", in the man ...LM?

As well, ...you have no evidence to support your thought that "Adam... continued to be a LIVING soul"... other than this is what "you think"...

On the contrary... As I have noted... that CHRIST clearly pointed to PHYCIALLY LIVING men, naming them as DEAD... ...what was "DEAD" about these men, LM?

Can't be the SPIRIT, for the SPIRIT of man is the breath of LIFE which made him a "LIVING SOUL"... These men were STILL "breathing"... but in some way (which you have yet to explain), ARE in a STATE OF DEATH.

What makes more REASONABLE -- Isaiah 1:18 -- sense is that, once a MAN "sins", he is no longer a "LIVING" SOUL, rather he is a "SOUL" which is IN the state of "DEATH"... which still has the BREATH of LIFE in his flesh... yet is a "SOUL" which is in need of REGENERATION by LIFE = JESUS CHRIST -- John 14:6

I see soul death, the second death in the lake of fire, as being turned into a soulless spirit, with neither body nor soul. (Jude 1:12-13)

This is strictly your CONJECTURE (that it is the destiny of some to become "soul-less, body-less" spirits)...

The 2nd Death is that "death and hell" (hades which means grave -- 1 Cor 15:55)

And that "2nd death" is in fact the casting of these 2 "partnering things" (death and the grave) into the Lake of FIRE -- Rev 20:14 (PUR = fire as noted in Rev 3:18 -- btw, ...the trials of CHRIST took place HERE in this realm)...

That these 2 "partnering things" (death and the grave) are obviously VERY PRESENT, and active within THIS REALM cannot be refuted!

Orthodoxy, projects the book of "Revelation" as being a prophetic and mostly writing of futuristic events (instead of what the book itself SAYS of itself)... the REVELATION [revealing] of JESUS CHRIST

The word REVELATION means - the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST... which is applicable from the BEGINNING unto (including the processing in between) the END, for it notes that Him to be BOTH, TWICE! In its Beginning chapter -- Rev 1:8 -- and in its Ending chapter -- Rev 22:13

CHRIST is REVEALED throughout the history of mankind... for He IS the Beginning of all things -- John 1:1-3 -- the (ongoing) Consistent state of all things -- Col 1:17 -- and the End -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- of all things...

This I can mostly agree with, although I don't think it should be labeled the third death because it is not something personal.

You are grabbing at straws... by insisting a "personal" experience be attached to all of these, but not in your observance. In the end, a "personal experience" does occur in all of these.

I would ask you, ...where is the SECOND DEATH, referred to in Scripture as "personal"? (ev

DEATH in any sort of revelation of it, remains DEATH. Whether it be the,

DEATH of the SOUL (1st)...
DEATH of the FLESH (2nd) or the...
DEATH of DEATH (3rd)

and ALL these are PERTINTENT ("personal" if you must) to not only man, but to the entire CREATION -- Rom 8:19-21

A person does not die this death, so it is not part of a sequence (1,2,3).

ALL 3 deaths are VERY pertinent to MEN... for man DIES the 1st and 2nd deaths, ...and in the end, ...is PERSONALLY RELEASED from BOTH by the DEATH of the 3rd... which is LIFE RESTORED, in RESURRECTION.

The first two deaths are personal experiences, what you call the third death is not.

I disagree...

The 3rd death is even MORE "PERSONAL" than the 1st two... for DEATH, in it's ..."dying", ...results in LIFE being manifest on an ETERNAL basis, ...which is "personnally" RESTORED to the ALL THINGS (= the CREATION, not just men) which became IMPRISONED by the 1st two...

IMO, that is extremely "PERSONAL" to each one of us!


pEAce...


...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

The 3rd death is even MORE "PERSONAL" than the 1st two... for DEATH, in it's ..."dying", ...results in LIFE being manifest on an ETERNAL basis, ...which is "personnally" RESTORED to the ALL THINGS (= the CREATION, not just men) which became IMPRISONED by the 1st two...

IMO, that is extremely "PERSONAL" to each one of us!

I don't have enough time to comment on most of your post, but this struck me at the end. If it is for all of us, then it is not personal. The whole idea of a personal death is that only one person experiences it, not all people.

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi LM...

I don't have enough time to comment on most of your post, but this struck me at the end. If it is for all of us, then it is not personal. The whole idea of a personal death as that only one person experiences it, not all people.

This is your opinion... ...and you are welcome to it... ...however,

CHRIST is the SAVIOR for ALL of us and within that, AFFECTS us ALL accordingly, ...this does not remove HIM from being "PERSONAL" (in THAT capacity) to each of us...


...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

This is strictly your CONJECTURE (that it is the destiny of some to become "soul-less, body-less" spirits)...

The 2nd Death is that "death and hell" (hades which means grave -- 1 Cor 15:55)

And that "2nd death" is in fact the casting of these 2 "partnering things" (death and the grave) into the Lake of FIRE -- Rev 20:14 (PUR = fire as noted in Rev 3:18 -- btw, ...the trials of CHRIST took place HERE in this realm)...

That these 2 "partnering things" (death and the grave) are obviously VERY PRESENT, and active within THIS REALM cannot be refuted!

There are four references to the second death in Revelation, only one of which corresponds to what you are saying. What you are saying completely ignores the other three verses:

1. Revelation 2:11
   “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’
2. Revelation 20:6
   Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
3. Revelation 21:8
   But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Now how is it that the second death has not power to hurt the overcomers if the second death is just Death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire??

You are taking into account only one context for the second death when there are clearly two contexts. The second death in Rev 21:8 is the soul death of the wicked. The righteous (overcomers) are not hurt by this. There is no possibility that throwing Death and Hades would hurt anyone, so your context completely ignores these three verses.

Rev 21:8 matches up with Matthew 10:28. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus assures us that God can destroy the soul in Gehenna, which is (or contains) the lake of fire. So the death of the soul is the second death in Gehenna.

 

[Timothew]

This seems like an easy poll question. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. So why do so many people claim that people will be eternally tormented in hell for their sins?