What are the wages of sin?

[LutheranMafia]

I don't believe in limbo. I believe that is a Catholic Belief, not that it matters to me.

I am not using the term limbo in the Catholic sense of Limbo, an actual place, but in the vernacular sense of the word limbo:

a : a place or state of restraint or confinement
b : a place or state of neglect or oblivion <proposals kept in limbo>
c : an intermediate or transitional place or state

Thus, I am saying that you believe that when we die, until the resurrection, we are are in a state of nonexistent limbo. The Catholic sense of Limbo is not a state of nonexistent. But you believe that we go to a state of nonexistent limbo when we die.

I believe the bible is true.

As do we all.

My faith has been strengthen a lot since I discarded the false idea that God is sadistic ogre who tortures his enemies in fiery hell for all eternity.

But how has your faith been strengthened by believing that we go to a state of nonexistent limbo until the resurrection? That is the crucial issue here, and it is not about torture, it is about bliss. You deny the bliss for the saved too, as well as the torture for the damned. You deny the whole lot, until resurrection.

On the other hand, why does it matter to you? If the eternal torment side doesn't have an answer for something, they just shrug and say "God's ways are mysterious and unknowable."

I have never once said that. Please don't confuse my arguments with the arguments of others.

If I give you an answer you don't like you say "Aha! Gotcha". Why come to me for answers? Why don't you read the bible for answers?

I don't come to you for answers anymore than you come to me for answers.

In fact, I think you read the bible a lot. You probably read the bible through each year. This year when you read through the bible, ask yourself (or better yet, ask God) whether what you are reading supports eternal torment or the truth.

That is not the issue, you keep turning things to your pet peeve of torture, but the issue that I have been putting forward is the bliss of Heaven that the righteous experience at death.

Belief in the resurrection certainly strengthens my faith. Why wouldn't it.

Once again, that is not the issue. It is manifestly obvious why belief in the resurrection would strengthen faith. But why does disbelief in Heaven strengthen faith? That is my question.

Just last night as I was driving to a church meeting I was reflecting on how great it is that I will receive true life from God in the resurrection, and not a half-life that some people put their faith in.

Here at least, you have drawn up the lines of battle in a more honest manner, instead of evading the issue and changing the topic. Yes it is a half-life, existence in Heaven as a spirit as opposed to a physical existence in the resurrection, but this "half-life" as you put it, in a state of perfect bliss, is far far better than your doctrine of nonexistent limbo while waiting for the resurrection.

 

[Timothew]

I don't come to you for answers anymore than you come to me for answers.

Then don't ask me any questions.

Here at least, you have drawn up the lines of battle in a more honest manner, instead of evading the issue and changing the topic. Yes it is a half-life, existence in Heaven as a spirit as opposed to a physical existence in the resurrection, but this "half-life" as you put it, in a state of perfect bliss, is far far better than your doctrine of nonexistent limbo while waiting for the resurrection.

I just believe what the bible says. We live, we die, we are resurrected to eernal life or eternal death.

What you believe is your own business. You can believe we all go to Narnia when we die if it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. You already said that you don't ask me questions in order to get answers, so Goodbye. This is my last response to you. You don't want truth, you just want to argue and attempt to change my mind.

 

[Blackmarch]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please vote in the poll. Are the wages of sin death or something other than death?

This is a public poll.

The wages of sin are seperation from God and that is death.

 

[mathetes123]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please vote in the poll. Are the wages of sin death or something other than death?

This is a public poll.

You seem to be implying by your poll that since the wages of sin is death, there is no hell. How do you reconcile that with the story of Lazarus.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

[19] &#8220;There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.[20] &#8220;But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,[21] &#8220;desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell* from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.[22] &#8220;So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.[23] &#8220;And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.[24] &#8220;Then he cried and said, &#8216;Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.&#8217;[25] &#8220;But Abraham said, &#8216;Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.[26] &#8216;And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.&#8217;[27] &#8220;Then he said, &#8216;I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,[28] &#8216;for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.&#8217;[29] &#8220;Abraham said to him, &#8216;They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.&#8217;[30] &#8220;And he said, &#8216;No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.&#8217;[31] &#8220;But he said to him, &#8216;If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.&#8217;&#8221;

 

[Timothew]

You seem to be implying by your poll that since the wages of sin is death, there is no hell. How do you reconcile that with the story of Lazarus.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

[19] &#8220;There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.[20] &#8220;But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,[21] &#8220;desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell* from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.[22] &#8220;So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.[23] &#8220;And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.[24] &#8220;Then he cried and said, &#8216;Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.&#8217;[25] &#8220;But Abraham said, &#8216;Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.[26] &#8216;And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.&#8217;[27] &#8220;Then he said, &#8216;I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,[28] &#8216;for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.&#8217;[29] &#8220;Abraham said to him, &#8216;They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.&#8217;[30] &#8220;And he said, &#8216;No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.&#8217;[31] &#8220;But he said to him, &#8216;If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.&#8217;&#8221;

There is no hell in the parable of Lazarus. And It's not about hell.

 

[LutheranMafia]

“And being in torments in Hades

What is that, if not Hell?

 

[Timothew]

What is that, if not Hell?

Hades.

 

[old weatherd cross]

Hey T

What happened to Lazarus, man?
Nobody really knows.

 

[WillieH]

Its been a while since I have commented on this discussion, but thought I would retrace those which addressed me...

WillieH, your last message was unusually short and so I was able to wade through it, which I can't do when you go on and on and on like a blowhard windbag.

(1) Have you ever been able to ...READ A BOOK, LM? I'm thinkin' probably NOT... ...as you complain of posts made upon this board (which are FAR short of ANY BOOK),

The TRUTH is, ...that the LENGTH of ANY post I have made on this forum (or in this discussion) fall FAR SHORT of the LENGTH, of ANY BOOK...

(2) That you resort to name calling, only shows the weakness of your "theology" (if you can TRUTHFULLY call it that! )

So my question to you from your previous message is, are you a Universalists?

First, ...I am a believer in theGOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- which comes forth from the GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20

Whiich btw ,cannot include (the totally ILLOGICAL and UNREASONABLE) place called, "HELL"... and you are more than WELCOME to ATTEMPT to explain the ASPECTS of PEACE which are MUST be contained in the message of HELL... ...and,

Your "explanation" MUST DISPLAY that HELL is an example of a MESSAGE of PEACE, and how it can be part of the author as it comes forth from a GOD which ...IS PEACE ITSELF..

I am sure that "attempt" (should you try) will be FULL of DOUBLE TALK, and come forth from a BRUISED and DECIEVED ego...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[Blackmarch]

Hey T

What happened to Lazarus, man?
Nobody really knows.

Unless he was changed to not die till the resurrection and then be changed in a "twinkling of an eye" most likely he would have died of natural causes later in life. Unfortunately its not recorded, as per you say.

What elijah did, and christ did for those who died but were brought back to couldnt have been the type of resurrection that Christ had, and is talked about at the endtimes (else christ could not have been the first).
So i prefer to think of those instances as restorations- where their spirits were merely returned to their bodies and the body was healed, rather than combined with a new glorified or immortal body.

 

[WillieH]

Willie, Ed has been yelling around here on several threads in UT with enourmously long winded posts and refuses to address scripture that clearly contradicts his point of view. It is so intense that Timothew and I who have enormous differences in our beliefs are driven together as strange bedfellows to argue against Ed's much more egregious errors and distortions of the Bible.

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The "long winded" comment is a STRAWMAN... which you use to avoid addressing points made to you, due to them having more than one sentence.

You are constantly NAME CALLING others...

That some men and women actually STUDY and IN THAT PROCESS, come up with SUBSTANCIATED points, and then IN DETAIL note them, is not "long winded", it is just reading LAZINESS on your part.

Get a Bible and study it... even though you probably will not do so as it is MUCH MORE "long winded", than ANYTHING Ed or anyone here can offer...

Nevertheless I wish you PEACE... ...which will actually come your way via a PERSONAL EFFORT by you to research, instead of hiding in the STRAWMAN ("long winded") whining you do often trying to avoid.


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

More "catching up"

The poll is a false dichotomy. The wages of sin is soul death and eternal torment of the spirit. It is not one or the other.

Where does the Scripture appear that says: "ETERNAL TORMENT of the SPIRIT"?

The wages of SIN is DEATH -- pretty straightforward... No EMBELLISHMENTS are necessary to it... and any kind of death that happens to occur in this realm, falls under the category of ...the "wage of sin"...

The SOUL "dies" in the DAY one breaches the COMMAND of GOD -- Gen 2:17 -- Ez 18:20

Nothing is mentioned about the SOUL, SPIRIT or PHYSICAL dieing" in -- Rom 6:23 -- Just that DEATH is the "wage of SIN" (any variation of "DEATH")

But We KNOW that CHRIST noted LIVING MEN, as being "DEAD" -- Matt 8:22 -- and those (physically) LIVING Men that were "DEAD", also eventually died PHYSICALLY.

So whatever was "DEAD" ... concerning them, was NOT PHYSICAL. As CHRIST noted these (the "DEAD") as "burying" the "DEAD"(a physical act)

PHYSICALLY DEAD men cannot do ANYTHING PHYSICAL -- Ecc 4-5

Study to show thyself approved LM... Instead of believing a church doctrine which has been HANDED to you.



PEACE...

...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Do you wish to LEARN, LM? I certainly hope so, ...but WE (everyone who reads this answer) shall see...

There are four references to the second death in Revelation, only one of which corresponds to what you are saying. What you are saying completely ignores the other three verses:

So say you... I shall display below that your CONSTRUCT of the WORD is nothing but a PERVERSION of it:

Revelation 2:11

&#8220;He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.&#8221;&#8217;

Revelation 20:6


Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:8


But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.&#8221;

Answering your above references:


(1) -- Rev 2:11

The 2nd Death is PHYSICAL... and any "overcomer" only "overcame" because CHRIST ...AUTHORED and FINISHED Faith IN them -- Heb 12:2 -- Gal 2:20 -- The Apostle Paul "overcame" because He submitted to CHRIST and HIS FAITH, by DIEING to His own --...the life I NOW LIVE in the flesh I LIVE by the faith OF ...the Son of GOD -- which was WITHIN, and thereby provided the "overcoming" FOR HIM.

Those who submit unto CHRIST, and DIE unto themselves -- Gal 2:20 -- are not "hurt" by dieing in the NAKEDNESS of their FLESH as they have "bought the GOLD of CHRIST, ...TRIED in (the Lake of) FIRE -- Rev 3:18

It is the "SHAME of NAKEDNESS" that IS the "hurt" which is avoided by those COVERED/CLOTHED in the "WHITE RAIMENT", of CHRIST -- Rev 3:18 -- 1 Pet 4:8



(2) -- Rev 20:6

The DEATH in the PHYSICAL (2nd death, which follows the death of the 1st death which was manifest by the SOUL in breach of the command of GOD) has NO POWER over the FAITH which is AUTHORED and FINISHED by CHRIST... It aint that hard, LM...



(3) -- Rev 21:8

No man can escape the qualifications listed in Rev 21:8 -- the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which IS [not "will be"] ...the second death

THIS life is the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE in which the "GOLD of CHRIST" was tried... and IN which ALL things are JUDGED... which is NOW! -- John 12:31 -- Rev 3:18 -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

The (Lake of) FIRE and BRIMSTONE is actually a SAVING and CORRECTING "fire" -- 1 Cor 3:15 -- Psalm 90:9

Just a FEW (qualifications that make the 2nd death inescapable) that NO MAN can avoid:

(1) ALL men are LIARS (which qualifies YOU LM, even if you are able to decieve yourself by wriggling out of the others ) -- Rom 3:4

(2) ALL men are CONCLUDED by GOD in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- so you have 2 qualifiying achievements!

(3) If you even have ONE picture or favorite musical or entertainment artist... you are an IDOLATOR...

There you are LM... this gives you 3 qualifying achievements by YOU which serve to include you in the LAKE of FIRE & BRIMSTONE = 2nd Death!

That's enough, don't want you to feel "too bad"...

Btw --- the word "FIRE" in all these verses as well as -- Rev 3:18 -- IS the FIRE that TRIED CHRIST, and is -- PUR #G4442 -- Which is a PERFECTING "FIRE", as the FIRE (of suffering) which tried CHRIST was a part of His PERFECTING -- Heb 2:10 -- and IS the "trying" of each of us as we are being "perfected" -- James 5:3 -- 1 Pet 1:7 -- in THIS ...the "LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE"...

Now how is it that the second death has not power to hurt the overcomers if the second death is just Death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire??

Read what I just said... ...if "your" works, cease to exist, and become HIS WORKS within you, then the "2nd death" (of the flesh), will not result in SHAME, rather... the "you" that has DIED and been CRUCIFIED with CHRIST -- Gal 2:20 -- is what the Father sees -- -- instead of your DESERVED SHAME of NAKEDNESS...

IOW... YOU living the repetition of ADAM & EVE before YHVH -- Gen 3:7, 11 -- which is SHAMEFULLY HIDING from RIGHTEOUSNESS instead of LIVING it...

The RIGHTEOUSNESS of DIEING to SELF, is the "HIDING" of your deeds IN CHRIST -- which do not APPEAR before YHVH -- Matt 10:26 -- Rom 4:7 -- -- but are covered (clothed) with His RIGHTEOUSNESS -- Rev 3:18

You are taking into account only one context for the second death when there are clearly two contexts. The second death in Rev 21:8 is the soul death of the wicked.

There you go, making excuses again!

GOD says there are NONE "RIGHTEOUS", (and I shall believe Him and what HE WROTE over what YOU write, any day!) btw, "NONE" means ah, ...NONE!

...no ...not ...one (not even YOU, ...LM!) -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- Rom 3:10-12 -- YOU have already experienced the SOUL DEATH" for IN THE DAY that YOU sinned, ...you DIED -- Gen 2:17

ADAM sinned, -- Gen 3:6 -- yet continued to LIVE a PHYSICAL lifetime that was 930 years in length -- Gen 5:5

The righteous (overcomers) are not hurt by this. There is no possibility that throwing Death and Hades would hurt anyone, so your context completely ignores these three verses.

Nah... YOU ignore what they say, as well as what I say... you're quite good at ignoring!

As I said above, according to YHVH GOD, there are NONE "RIGHTEOUS" -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- Rom 3:10-12 -- and I hate to tellya, but... "NONE" happens to INCLUDE even YOU, LM!

DEATH and HADES (which means GRAVE) are pretty common elements in this life. One must be BLIND, ...not to see this. ...better go "SEE" the DIVINE "OPTOMETRIST"!

Rev 21:8 matches up with Matthew 10:28. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus assures us that God can destroy the soul in Gehenna, which is (or contains) the lake of fire. So the death of the soul is the second death in Gehenna.

Trying to make the SCRIPTURES say what YOU wish them to say!


(1) -- There is not ONE VERSE that notes that "Gehenna" and the LAKE of FIRE are one and the same thing. That is YOUR interp...

The LAKE of FIRE also contains BRIMSTONE=Sulfur (which you IGNORE)... BRIMSTONE is a PURIFYING agent...

The word "BRIMSTONE" is #G2303 -- THEION -- which means sulfur and is derived from -- #2304 -- THEIOS -- which means DIVINE.

We are (now) IN the midst of GOD -- Acts 17:28 -- who IS (UNCHANGINGLY/NOW) a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29 -- which is CORRECTIVE (removing unholiness/sinfulness from us) and a PRESERVATIVE... and a CREATOR

Certainly NOT a DESTROYER! Nor is HE (like you), a perpetrator of FEAR -- 1 John 4:18

YOU are the (misled) messenger of (your churches tainted version of) BAD NEWS (HELL, destruction, vengence, for anyone but YOU)... misrepresenting Him -- Matt 7:22-23 -- When He SPECIFICALLY told you to bring GOOD NEWS -- Mark 16:15 -- and you have been, and are, ...FAILING that commission... Lotsa luck widdat!


(2) More of you trying to make SCRIPTURE say what YOU want it to say... within the EMPTY and EVIL vengence within your heart for others -- Matt 10:28 -- notes that GOD, ...is ABLE... to destroy. It does NOT SAY that He will EVER do so...

GOD LOVES the WORLD and DOES NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- and CHRIST died for ALL -- 1 Tim 2:6

If ALL are not saved, then the MAJORITY of His sacrifice is therefore, IN VAIN -- Isaiah 55:11 -- which is a blatant and VAIN MISREPORTING of the ability of the WORD of GOD to accomplish ALL that it is SENT to DO -- John 3:16-17 -- John 1:29

Btw... Just because you own a GUN (which makes you ABLE to kill me), ...does not mean that you WILL kill me! And only means that the GUN enABLES you the power to do so...



PEACE...


...willieH

 

[timbo3]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please vote in the poll. Are the wages of sin death or something other than death?

This is a public poll.

The apostle Paul used the Greek word opsonion at Romans 6:23, meaning "rations for a soldier, i. e. (by extention) his stipend or pay".(G3800) Thus, the "wages (opsonion, "stipend or allowance") sin pays is death. But the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." It is to be seen here at Romans 6:23, there are two opposites mentioned, death and life.

If a person were to have "wages" other than death because of sin, then that person would have been granted "everlasting life", which could not be, for "everlasting life" is given by God to those who have unswervingly obeyed his commands.

In "eternal torment", such could not be the case, for that would mean that a person is still alive and forever at that and God would be the one giving that person "everlasting life" though "in torments".

Hence, either a person is given "everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord", because of exercising faith in his perfect shed blood, or a person who wishes to continue in a practice of sin, dies and remains dead unless Jehovah God deems that person worthy of a resurrection. ("resurrection",Greek a·na´sta·sis, meaning "raising up; standing up") However, if this one has "sinned against the holy spirit"(Matt 12:31, 32), then they are left permanently dead, not worthy of a resurrection or a "standing up to life again".

In order for a person to have "eternal torment", there has to be "something" that lives on after death. The teaching of "eternal torment" is a false religious doctrine that originated in ancient Babylon. The Egyptians also believed in the "afterlife", in the immortality of the soul and that is why pharaohs were embalmed. It was believed that the human body must be preserved so that the soul might return and use it on occasion.

The tomb in which the mummified body was placed was considered the deceased&#8217;s &#8220;home.&#8221; The pyramids were colossal residences for the royal dead. The necessities and luxuries of life, including jewelry, clothing, furniture, and supplies of food, were stored away in the tombs for future use by the deceased, along with written spells and charms (such as the &#8220;Book of the Dead&#8221 to provide the departed with protection from evil spirits.

This belief was passed onto other nations, such as the Greeks. The churches absorbed both the immortality of the soul and eternal torment into their teachings and doctrines. Through Greek philosophy, the churches interwove these into their religious teachings. When the apostle Paul was in Athens, he preached the good news to a crowd that included some Greek philosophers. They listened to his discussion about the one true God and his call to repentance. But what happened next?

Paul concluded his speech, saying: &#8220;[God] has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.&#8221; Those words caused a stir. &#8220;When they heard of a resurrection of the dead, some began to mock.&#8221; (Acts 17:22-32)

Theologian Oscar Cullmann observes: &#8220;For the Greeks who believed in the immortality of the soul it may have been harder to accept the Christian preaching of the resurrection than it was for others. . . . The teaching of the great philosophers Socrates and Plato (who taught that the soul was immortal) can in no way be brought into consonance [agreement] with that of the New Testament.&#8221;

Explains The New Encyclopædia Britannica: &#8220;From the middle of the 2nd century AD Christians who had some training in Greek philosophy began to feel the need to express their faith in its terms, both for their own intellectual satisfaction and in order to convert educated pagans.&#8221; Once philosophically minded persons became Christians, it did not take long for Greek philosophy and &#8220;Christianity&#8221; to become inseparably linked.

The soul being mortal is well attested to in the Bible. For example, at Genesis 17:14, concerning the "covenant of circumcision" with Abraham in 1919 B.C.E, Jehovah God told him: "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."(King James Bible)

Over 400 years later, in 1513 B.C.E., the Israelites were told before leaving Egypt: "Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel."(Ex 12:15, King James Bible)

If the soul is immortal (and this is required for "eternal torment" to be true), how can it be "cut off" or put to death ? Furthermore, at Jeremiah 2:34, concerning the wickedness of the Israelites, it says that "in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents." (King James Bible)

Thus, according to the Bible, the soul has blood and therefore it is not immortal and helps put to rest that there is an "eternal torment". Thence, the "wages sin pays is death", not eternal torment. Only by Jehovah God resurrecting a person, can he hope to live again.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The Egyptians also believed in the "afterlife"

What about 2 Corinthians 5 which clearly speaks of an afterlife in Heaven.

in the immortality of the soul

The soul can be destroyed (Mat 10:28) but nowhere does the Bible speak of spirit being destroyed. It is spirit that is indestrucible, not soul.

 

[WillieH]

What about 2 Corinthians 5 which clearly speaks of an afterlife in Heaven.


The soul can be destroyed (Mat 10:28) but nowhere does the Bible speak of spirit being destroyed. It is spirit that is indestrucible, not soul.

This whole post is RELIGIOUS hearsay...

(1) -- The word "AFTERLIFE" is UNBIBLICAL -- 2 Cor 5 -- does NOT MENTION anything called "AFTERLIFE"... tell us the GREEK word which is translated into the ENGLISH word: "AFTERLIFE"...


About the Soul and the Spirit:

(2) -- Nowhere in the Scripture does it SAY that ANY "SOUL WILL be destroyed"...


(3) -- Nowhere in the Scripture does it SAY that "the SPIRIT is INDESTRUCTIBLE" either.


GOD can do ANYTHING He so chooses...


Why not STUDY to show yourself approved LM, instead parroting FALSE and UNBIBLICAL, ...HEARSAY?

PEACE...


...willieH

 

[In Spirit and Truth]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please vote in the poll. Are the wages of sin death or something other than death?

This is a public poll.

Jesus paid the wages for our sin at the cross. However, we still die physically. How can we as Christians die, if the wages of sin are death and yet those wages have been paid for us?

There is a physical life and a physical death, and there is an eternal life and an eternal death. To call both kinds of life the same would be wrong, and likewise to call both kinds of death the same would be equally wrong.

 

[WillieH]

Jesus paid the wages for our sin at the cross. However, we still die physically. How can we as Christians die, if the wages of sin are death and yet those wages have been paid for us?

There is a physical life and a physical death, and there is an eternal life and an eternal death. To call both kinds of life the same would be wrong, and likewise to call both kinds of death the same would be equally wrong.

Yeah right! ...if indeed you are "In Spirt and Truth", then you shall be able to answer these things:

JESUS' VICTORY was over ANY and ALL forms of DEATH... for if ANY DEATH (of any kind) remains, then VICTORY was not achieved OVER IT.

JESUS died for ALL -- John 1:29 -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Rom 5:6

1 Cor 15:54-55

54 So when this corruptible [which encases all] shall have put on incorruption, and this motral shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought the saying WHICH IS WRITTEN -- DEATH [all forms, as no particular form of "death" is noted] IS ...SWALLOWED UP, in VICTORY...
55 O DEATH [all forms of "death"] WHERE it thy STING? O GRAVE [which imprisons those which are "DEAD"]... WHERE is THY VICTORY?


This Scripture CLEARLY defines that DEATH (and its "partner" the GRAVE/"hell/hades") is that over which VICTORY has been gained -- 1 Cor 15:54 -- having fallen to the ALMIGHTY STRENGTH of the CROSS which has VICTORIOUSLY reconciled ALL THINGS unto GOD -- Col 1:20

Concerning your attempted application of the word, ..."ETERNAL"

Actually, You (nor anyone else) have no right (as FINITES with both a beginning/birth and end/death) ...to use the word ETERNAL or indeed APPLY it to ANYONE, unless you can COMPLETELY DEFINE the word ETERNAL... as the definition of the word ETERNAL (or "everlasting, or for ever") does not just include NEVER-ENDING, but as well, ...includes BEGINNING-LESS...

Until YOU can explain how GOD (or any other being or thing), can BE, WITHOUT a BEGINNING, then your (unintentional, but EVIL) proposal of "ETERNAL DEATH" falls prey to that empty and totally profound IGNORANCE.

I look forward to you explaining how ANYTHING (including GOD), has NO BEGINNING. ...as well, as to how "DEATH" might be "BEGINNINGLESS and ENDLESS" in the case of ANYONE!


CHRIST was SENT to DIE, ...to REDEEM ALL -- John 1:29 -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Rom 5:6 -- and His mission is CLEARLY stated in the WORD --- which was "to SEEK and to SAVE that which was LOST" (which includes ALL men/women) -- Luke 19:10

Furthermore, ...the WORD DECREES -- Isaiah 55:11 -- to whatever conclusion, that the WORD has been SENT, -- 1 John 4:14 -- John 3:16-17 -- ALL within that mission, ...shall BE ACCOMPLISHED -- (which "mission" was to SEEK and to SAVE ...the LOST --- which includes the entirety of the Human race)

Your "belief" and statement above, TAINT these HOLY DECREES of God... ...and remain UNHOLY products of YOUR OWN (presently) limited vision... which selfishly includes YOUR salvation, while DISINCLUDING the salvation of others which LIKE YOU are in a LOST condition, and LIKE YOU, are LOST without it.

It is CLEARLY, ...NOT that which is noted in the WORD... and it is CLEARLY NOT, ...GOOD NEWS... (except for "YOU" within your present blindness)


More study and prayer, is needed within your experience... which needs the INCLUSION of the abandonment of SELF (which is the needed change in ANY LOST SON -- Luke 15:11-32)


PEACE...

...willieH

 

[In Spirit and Truth]

You should be careful not to allow your selfish spiritual pride to get the better of you. Your post indicates to me that your heart is full of selfish pride and vainglory, otherwise you would not be seeking to prove others wrong or debate with them for your own enjoyment. God hates pride. God especially hates spiritual pride. I hope that someday (obviously, you have not done so yet) you will realize the damage that your pride does to your spirit, and how truly disfigured your relationship with God will be until you allow Him to banish it from you by embracing the Cross. Everything that you do or say or think that appeals to your ego and causes you to be satisfied with yourSELF is not from God, but from the flesh.

 

[Timothew]

You should be careful not to allow your selfish spiritual pride to get the better of you. Your post indicates to me that your heart is full of selfish pride and vainglory, otherwise you would not be seeking to prove others wrong or debate with them for your own enjoyment. God hates pride. God especially hates spiritual pride. I hope that someday (obviously, you have not done so yet) you will realize the damage that your pride does to your spirit, and how truly disfigured your relationship with God will be until you allow Him to banish it from you by embracing the Cross. Everything that you do or say or think that appeals to your ego and causes you to be satisfied with yourSELF is not from God, but from the flesh.

meh,
I know Willie and he doesn't have any selfish spiritual pride.