What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

[Butch5]

But you said before that all means all. Obviously you are changing your tune now.



Your projecting false conclusions. I believe the Bible just fine.
Why don't you believe 1 John 5:7 (KJB)?
Oh, I know why? It does not align with your beliefs.
Yes, I am aware of people who reject the KJB as the pure Word of God, but that does not change the truth of 1 John 5:7.



Well, I believe 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 just fine. Verse 3 is referring to the triune God (When we take into account the whole counsel of God's Word). Verse 6 is saying there is only one unique person of the triune Godhead who is God the Father. But you must understand that Jesus said He and the Father are one (John 10:30), just as three bear record in Heaven and are one (1 John 5:7). Jesus also said to be the true God, too (See again: 1 John 5:20). The Word is Jesus who was made flesh (John 1:14). The Word (Jesus) is said to be God and the Word was said to be with God (the Father) (See: John 1:1). Both are God. So unless you believe in worshiping two gods, I choose to believe in worshiping God who is one (who is triune) as Scripture plainly teaches (1 John 5:7).

Unitarians and or Binitarians make the error that God is only one person when they read passages like 1 Corinthians 8:4-6. However, the true Trinitarian has no problem reading verses like 1 Corinthians 8:6 because they realize that there are three distinct persons in the triune Godhead and sometimes Scripture focuses on that one person within the Trinity.

Side Note:


I didn't change anything, all means all. It never means less than all. Even when it's used figuratively. Think critically.

The passage is clear.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:4-6 KJV)

Paul said there is one God, the Father. Why don't you believe him.

I already told you why I don't accept 1 John 5:7. It's not original. If you researched it you'd see that. However, I understand you can't do that because if you did that and saw the it isn't original that would mean that your KJV translation isn't perfect. You're caught in a catch 22

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul said there is one God, the Father. Why don't you believe him.

I do believe him. There is only one unique person of the Godhead or the Trinity that is God the Father. Jesus is not God the Father, etc.; But that does not mean Jesus also not said to be the true God, too (1 John 5:20). So why don't you believe 1 John 5:20?

Also, Jesus is referenced as Lord (i.e. Lord Jesus Christ) in 1 Corinthians 8.
The Lord is referenced as God in the Old Testament and New Testament.

I already told you why I don't accept 1 John 5:7. It's not original. If you researched it you'd see that. However, I understand you can't do that because if you did that and saw the it isn't original that would mean that your KJV translation isn't perfect. You're caught in a catch 22

I don't follow the corrupt Critical Text where most Modern Translations come from that removes 1 John 5:7. Also, any supposed contradictions you see in the KJB is only in your own mind. For do you have a truth detector machine that detects errors in the Bible? What makes you trust one word in the Bible and not the rest? Logic and reason? Christians believe that a man raised from the dead. That's not normal under every day circumstances and that cannot be explained by logical means. It's a miracle and a mystery of God. We ultimately take God's Word by faith. For without faith, it is impossible to please God.

 

[Butch5]

I do believe him. There is only one unique person of the Godhead or the Trinity that is God the Father. Jesus is not God the Father, etc.; But that does not mean Jesus also not said to be the true God, too (1 John 5:20). So why don't you believe 1 John 5:20?



I don't follow the corrupt Critical Text where most Modern Translations come from. Also, any supposed contradictions you see in the KJB is only in your own mind. For do you have a truth detector machine that detects errors in the Bible? What makes you trust one word in the Bible and not the rest? Logic and reason? Christians believe that a man raised from the dead. That's not normal under every day circumstances and can be explained by logical means. It's a miracle and a mystery of God. We ultimately take God's Word by faith. For without faith, it is impossible to please God.

You keep sidestepping the passage. Paul said there is one God and that is the Father.

No, they're not in my head.

KJV Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Heb. 1:6 KJV)

Here Paul is quoting Deuteronomy 32:43. Here's the passage in the KJV.

Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. (Deut. 32:43 KJV)

Where's Paul's quote? He said, "let all the angels of God worship him." Where is it? The quote is Paul's whole point. Where is it? It's not there because Paul wasn't quoting the Masoretic text.

LXE Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; <1> rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. (Deut. 32:43 LXE)

This is the Greek Old Testament. So, we see that Paul was quoting the Greek OT. So, why doesn't the KJV have this passage. It's obviously God's word because Paul is quoting it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You keep sidestepping the passage. Paul said there is one God and that is the Father.

No, I explained the passage to you from the understanding of the whole counsel of God’s Word that includes 1 John 5:7 and not your removal of it because you prefer to side with OAO (Original Autograph Only) Proponents doubting a perfect Word for today (So the individual becomes the arbiter of truth and not the Word). Again, 1 Corinthians 8:6 is referring to one unique person of the Godhead or the Trinity. This unique person just so happens to be God the Father. It’s true there is only one God the Father (who is uniquely God the Father). But if you believe there is only one God, and it is God the Father (in rejection of the traditional Trinitarian point of view), then do you not believe Jesus is God? This simply shows the error in your own thinking. So if God the Father is the only God (as Binitarians may suggest) then they are denying that Jesus is God even though they believe Jesus is God. It’s a circular self defeating argument. 1 Corinthians 8:6 only works for you if you are an Anti-Trinitarian who denies that Jesus is God. Do you deny Jesus is God?

No, they're not in my head.

Of course the supposed KJB errors are in your head. I have explained some rather difficult supposed contradictions, and I am not the only KJB apologetic Christian out there, either. I also shown you a trail of evidence for 1 John 5:7 but you rejected it because I believe you simply do not understand the Trinity from our past conversations. You said some nonsense about how God was 4 (Which only shows that you don’t at least grasp the concept of the Trinity). I suppose God blessed me to understand the Trinity easily. I know others are not so fortunate.

KJV Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Heb. 1:6 KJV)

Here Paul is quoting Deuteronomy 32:43. Here's the passage in the KJV.

Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. (Deut. 32:43 KJV)

Where's Paul's quote? He said, "let all the angels of God worship him." Where is it? The quote is Paul's whole point. Where is it? It's not there because Paul wasn't quoting the Masoretic text.

LXE Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; <1> rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. (Deut. 32:43 LXE)

This is the Greek Old Testament. So, we see that Paul was quoting the Greek OT. So, why doesn't the KJV have this passage. It's obviously God's word because Paul is quoting it.

Here is one apologetic on this one.

Another King James Bible Believer

 

[Butch5]

No, I explained the passage to you from the understanding of the whole counsel of God’s Word that includes 1 John 5:7 and not your removal of it because you prefer to side with OAO (Original Autograph Only) Proponents doubting a perfect Word for today (So the individual becomes the arbiter of truth and not the Word). Again, 1 Corinthians 8:6 is referring to one unique person of the Godhead or the Trinity. This unique person just so happens to be God the Father. It’s true there is only one God the Father (who is uniquely God the Father). But if you believe there is only one God, and it is God the Father, then do you not believe Jesus is God? This simply shows the error in your own thinking. So if God the Father is the only God (as Binitarians may suggest) then they are denying that Jesus is God even though they believe Jesus is God. 1 Corinthians 8:6 only works for you if you are an Anti-Trinitarian who denies that Jesus is God.

It doesn't matter what you explained. Paul said,

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:4-6 KJV)

You don't believe that

Of course the supposed KJB errors are in your head. For I have not found a KJB contradiction that I was not able to explain, and I am not the only KJB apologetic Christian out there, either. I also shown you a trail of evidence for 1 John 5:7 but you rejected because I believe you simply do not understand the Trinity from our past conversations. You said some nonsense about how God was 4 (Which only shows that you don’t at least grasp the concept of the Trinity). I suppose God blessed me to understand the Trinity easily. I know others are not so fortunate.

So, you admit there are contradictions in the KJV? Are you aware that a contradiction cannot be explained? If could be explained it wouldn't be a contradiction.

Here is one apologetic on this one.

Another King James Bible Believer

This doesn't matter. The point is that Paul quotes the OT and your KJV OT doesn't have it. It has something different. If Paul is quoting the word of God and it's not in your KJV it has an error. It omits a passage of the word of God.

Mathew quotes the OT

21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. (Matt. 12:21 KJV)

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. (Isa. 42:4 KJV)

I guess Mathew wasn't quoting the Masoretic text either. It's not in your KJV

LXE Isaiah 42:4 He shall shine out, and shall not be <1> discouraged, until he have set judgement on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
(Isa. 42:4 LXE)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It doesn't matter what you explained. Paul said,

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:4-6 KJV)

You don't believe that






So, you admit there are contradictions in the KJV? Are you aware that a contradiction cannot be explained? If could be explained it wouldn't be a contradiction.




This doesn't matter. The point is that Paul quotes the OT and your KJV OT doesn't have it. It has something different. If Paul is quoting the word of God and it's not in your KJV it has an error. It omits a passage of the word of God.

Mathew quotes the OT

21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. (Matt. 12:21 KJV)

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. (Isa. 42:4 KJV)

I guess Mathew wasn't quoting the Masoretic text either. It's not in your KJV

LXE Isaiah 42:4 He shall shine out, and shall not be <1> discouraged, until he have set judgement on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
(Isa. 42:4 LXE)

I am not going to argue endlessly with you.
You are close minded to the truth of the Trinity and a perfect Word of God according to the Word.
Besides, the thread OP is about the reasons why people reject the Trinity (whereby I am asking traditional Trinitarian Christians this question). You don’t qualify to be able to contribute to the thread OP because you are stated to me by email a belief about God that is Binitarian. Binitarianism is Non-Trinitarianism and so your attack against the Trinity is not allowed to be discussed in this section of the forums. So please find another thread to talk in. You are only disrupting this one, and in violation of forum rules.

I am moving on from talking to you.
May God’s love shine upon you (even if we disagree on Scripture).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here is a good article in defense of 1 John 5:7.

A Defense of 1 John 5:7
(Please take note that while I may agree with this article, it does not mean I believe everything this author or website believes, says, or does).

 

[Clare73]

The only is three? You're statement is illogical

It's not about logic, it's about a reality you do not understand.

Nor is God governed by human logic, rather we are governed by God's revelation,
which reveals three equal and personal (acting as persons) divine agents acting in unison in salvation; i.e., three persons in the one God (see post #208, above).

 

[Clare73]

No interpretation needed. Jesus told you who it is.

Which explains your misunderstanding. . .

All meaning requires interpretation according to the rules of grammar.

 

[Clare73]

All does mean all.

Nope. . .depends on what "all."

Are you familiar with general statements and figures of speech? Obviously it's hyperbole. Since when do we change the meanings of words based on how they're used?

I think that was right before the invention of papyrus.

And who are you, O sir, to tell Paul--who received his revelation from Jesus Christ personally
in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-9),
who used words not taught by human wisdom, but words taught by the Holy Spirit
(1 Corinthians 2:13 )--who are you, O "sir," to tell Paul how he must use words?

Go and learn what this means (Matthew 9:13): you are in error because you do not know the Scriptures (Mark 12:24).

 

[Clare73]

You keep sidestepping the passage. Paul said there is one God and that is the Father.

It doesn't matter what you explained. Paul said,
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:4-6 KJV)

Precisely. . .

There is one God and that is the Father. . .which did not necessarioly exclude: and that is the Son... and that is the Holy Spirit, the three personal (acting as persons) divine agents in the one and only God, acting in unison in the work of salvation (see post #208, above).

 

[The Liturgist]

I know one Christian who said that the description of God is also found in 1 John 5:8 in addition to 1 John 5:7. So he basically was implying at the time that there were six members and not three. I was like… “What in the world?” But why? Why would he think this way? What makes people to reject the standard Christian view of the Trinity? What are there reasons in doing so?

Well, in that case, he is evidently unaware that the Comma Johanneum is viewed as being, at best, a gloss, by most people, and some consider it entirely spurious.

 

[Ligurian]

What are the motivations or reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity?

I am always fascinated behind the motivations behind why people believe they do. I can understand why some people might hold to various beliefs that I think are unbiblical, but when folks reject the Trinity as revealed in Scripture, I am just puzzled. Why do they do this? For there are believers who do not understand the Trinity and yet they accept it by faith it is true (even when they don’t understand it). I admire them for that. For me: I guess I was blessed by the Lord to be able to understand the Trinity right away.

I heard someone use Hebrews 1:9, and asked, Who are those companions?
(shrug) She forgot about Matthew 28:19.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I heard someone use Hebrews 1:9, and asked, Who are those companions?
(shrug) She forgot about Matthew 28:19.

The Messiah is above all other kings, priests, rulers, dignitaries, all. None is more highly exalted among men than this One.

The Son of Man came into His kingdom, taken up before the Ancient Days, and given all power, authority, and everlasting kingdom. God has highly exalted Him, at His right hand, and His name is above every other name. So that at the name of Jesus Christ every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord, to the glory of the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bangmegafan]

What are the motivations or reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity?

I am always fascinated behind the motivations behind why people believe they do. I can understand why some people might hold to various beliefs that I think are unbiblical, but when folks reject the Trinity as revealed in Scripture, I am just puzzled. Why do they do this? For there are believers who do not understand the Trinity and yet they accept it by faith it is true (even when they don’t understand it). I admire them for that. For me: I guess I was blessed by the Lord to be able to understand the Trinity right away.

Trinity is one in 3 forms. It means sovereign God is one and only one. However He manifests himself into three; Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit

Remember when Lord made Adam He thought “Let us make man in OUR own image” but He didn’t say “Let us make man in my image”

Nothing more to prove

 

[ViaCrucis]

Trinity is one in 3 forms. It means sovereign God is one and only one. However He manifests himself into three; Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit

Remember when Lord made Adam He thought “Let us make man in OUR own image” but He didn’t say “Let us make man in my image”

Nothing more to prove

Not three "forms". Three Divine Hypostases, or Persons.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ligurian]

The Messiah is above all other kings, priests, rulers, dignitaries, all. None is more highly exalted among men than this One.

The Son of Man came into His kingdom, taken up before the Ancient Days, and given all power, authority, and everlasting kingdom. God has highly exalted Him, at His right hand, and His name is above every other name. So that at the name of Jesus Christ every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord, to the glory of the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

Yep.

'El 'Elyon, most high God.
John 10:33-36 = Psalms 82:1-8
Revelation 3:7 = Isaiah 22:22 = Revelation 22:16

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yep.

'El 'Elyon, most high God.
John 10:33-36 = Psalms 82:1-8
Revelation 3:7 = Isaiah 22:22 = Revelation 22:16

Yes, Jesus, the Eternal, Almighty, and Most High God--begotten of the Father before all ages--became man. God the Son became man, and the Father exalted Him as King Messiah.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, in that case, he is evidently unaware that the Comma Johanneum is viewed as being, at best, a gloss, by most people, and some consider it entirely spurious.

Yes, that appears that may be the case for this particular person but I really don’t know because I have not talked to him about how most Christians reject the authenticity of 1 John 5:7 and how most Modern Bibles wrongfully remove that verse (Which is based upon the Alexandrian corrupt Critical text). He is gifted greatly in teaching Sanctification, but drops the ball big time on something so simple like the Trinity mentioned in 1 John 5:7. It surely is a puzzle to me.

 

[Butch5]

It's not about logic, it's about a reality you do not understand.

Nor is God governed by human logic, rather we are governed by God's revelation,
which reveals three equal and personal (acting as persons) divine agents acting in unison in salvation; i.e., three persons in the one God (see post #208, above).