What are the main differences between Traditional and Progressive?

[moicherie]

Fair enough. However, a careful review of my posts will reveal that I've asked several times for Scriptural support to verify not only the use of the exact phrase, but also the use of the concept that is often meant by the phrase. I've received neither. Why should I believe a concept that has no Scriptural basis?

BFA

Book of Joshua - Choose you this day whom you will serve - To chose means to make a decision - the concept of decisionmaking is freewill in operation..... Unless you telling us someone put a gun to your head and said believe in God or else......

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Please try and deal with the context. The context was free will and the ability to choose.

The ability to choose what? The context of my comments has always related to the ability to choose or not to choose the free gift of Christ's grace. Deuteronomy has no relationship to that subject.

Of course Deut. is not about the grace of Jesus Christ offered by Grace. They was no Jesus Christ incarnation at that time. You are playing games

I'm not much of a game player. You have brought forward a text that, by your own admission, has no bearing whatsoever on our discussion.

From you abundant misuse of and out of context statements.

I suppose I will have to leave you with your opinion on that.

I never equated belief with obedience either.

It is you who wrote:

"And I accept the the idea of being righteous by the exercise of free will, if not then what is the point of belief and faith."
​

If you'd like to clarify this statement, please feel free.

You have been teaching total depravity and Predestination.

Although I accept the concept of depravity, I have hardly been teaching predestination. I've already cited a number of Scriptures in this thread that provide the basis for my understanding of depravity. If you'd like to discuss any of them more specifically, I would be happy to do so.

Which points of tulip don't you accept

I agree with the concept of depravity. I am not in agreement with the other tulip points.

Again I have never said anything about grace plus works.

It is you who wrote:

Righteousness is a trusting relationship with God, that is what He asks for. To trust one must choose to trust. You are not righteous because God plays a shell game and credits you with the work of someone else.
​

If you'd like to clarify this statement, please feel free.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Pronouns relace the noun that immediately precede them. What is the noun that immediately precedes "IT" in the above text?

Oh that is right I posted an article. But apparently you could not bother to read that.

If I wanted to read articles, I would buy a magazine.

BFA

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Fair enough. However, a careful review of my posts will reveal that I've asked several times for Scriptural support to verify not only the use of the exact phrase, but also the use of the concept that is often meant by the phrase. I've received neither. Why should I believe a concept that has no Scriptural basis?

BFA

First several Biblical examples have been given of the concept of free will and the ability to choose. They don't use the word free will but then by that method you cannot say that the Bible rejects free will. In which case you rejection of the belief has no scriptural support either. There is no scriptural support for the stars being far distant suns or that there are other planets in the universe. Reality however shows us that their are planets so that we don't have to depend upon the knowledge of 2-4,000 years ago.

Many more examples could be given of people determining to do something or making choices. There are also cases where God determines the outcome or choice. But to simply assume that man has no choice is to assume that God makes all choices for them, a puppet master. And frankly a very irrational view of God as someone who is bringing about so much misery for so little good.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

First several Biblical examples have been given of the concept of free will and the ability to choose.

I have seen no Scriptural evidence to support the concept of man choosing the free gift of Christ's grace by any means other than the faith that is also a free gift. I have also acknowledged that faith includes a human component. Beyond that, I find no Scriptural basis for the concept of "free will" as it is usually understood by pelagians.

In which case you rejection of the belief has no scriptural support either.

I am saved by grace through faith and by nothing else.

Many more examples could be given of people determining to do something or making choices.

Please provide a Scriptural basis for concluding that one chooses the free gift.

But to simply assume that man has no choice is to assume that God makes all choices for them, a puppet master.

God does not make all choices for us, nor I have I suggested that He does.

BFA

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I have seen no Scriptural evidence to support the concept of man choosing the free gift of Christ's grace by any means other than the faith that is also a free gift. I have also acknowledged that faith includes a human component. Beyond that, I find no Scriptural basis for the concept of "free will" as it is usually understood by pelagians.

Salvation is the free gift not faith. (see quote below)
You have seen no evidence of the above because we have made no such claim. You constantly change the subject between free will and then grace and faith. You have not even indicated what you think the pelagians view of free will is. I supplied you with the dictionary definition and it only deals with free will, when you are backed into a corner you move from free will into accepting salvation by grace through faith. Because you can't see that faith is related to free will. So you statements have been deceptive and obscurantist.

I don't find any reason to go back and forth on this as you keep changing subjects and changing the context of my statements.

When no clear antecedent is found within a text, Greek scholar William Mounce wisely recommends that the Bible student study the context of the passage in question in order to help determine to what a relative pronoun (like “that”) is referring (1993, p. 111). The overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians is man’s salvation found in Christ.

• “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (1:7).
• The heavenly “inheritance” is found in Christ (1:11).
• After believing in the good news of salvation through Christ, the Ephesians were “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (1:13).
• Sinners are made “alive with Christ” and saved “by grace” (2:5).
• Sinners are brought near to God “by the blood of Christ” (2:13).
• Paul became a servant of Christ “according to the gift of the grace of God…by the effective working of His power” (3:7).

Not only is the theme of salvation the overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians, but the immediate context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is of salvation, not of faith. These two verses thoroughly document how a person is saved, not how a person believes.

• Salvation is by grace.
• Salvation is through faith.
• Salvation is not of yourselves.
• Salvation is the gift of God.
• Salvation is not of works.

Paul was not giving an exposition on faith in his letter to the Ephesians. Salvation was his focus. Faith is mentioned as the mode by which salvation is accepted. Salvation is through faith. Just as water is received into a house in twenty-first-century America through a pipeline, a sinner receives salvation through obedient faith. The main focus of Paul’s message in Ephesians 2:8-9 was salvation (the living “water that springs up into everlasting life”—cf. John 4:14), not the mode of salvation.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2297

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Book of Joshua - Choose you this day whom you will serve - To chose means to make a decision - the concept of decisionmaking is freewill in operation..... Unless you telling us someone put a gun to your head and said believe in God or else......

Believe or you will be destroyed in the lake of fire for ALL eternity.
Sounds like a pretty big freaking gun to Moriah.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Well said, moicherie. Trying to create theology on the basis of English words is an exercise in futility.

Trying to create a theology that leaves those lost in sin responsible for saving themselves by making "right decisions", even moreso.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Fair enough. However, a careful review of my posts will reveal that I've asked several times for Scriptural support to verify not only the use of the exact phrase, but also the use of the concept that is often meant by the phrase. I've received neither. Why should I believe a concept that has no Scriptural basis?

Exactly.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I am saved by grace through faith and by nothing else.

Please provide a Scriptural basis for concluding that one chooses the free gift.

Exactly. A gift bes given by the Giver and its giving depends entirely upon the Giver's choice to give it.

Absent a direct, unequivocal refusal to receive a gift, whether it stays wrapped on your table or gets opened and played with, either way, once the Giver has given, it bes YOURS. There bes no takebacks. God does not come to you a year later and say, "You haven't opened My gift to you yet so I'm taking it back, better luck next time sucker."

The giving of a gift depends entirely on the giver, not the receiver. The receiver plays no part in its selection, preparation or delivery. And man has screwd himself and fellow man into holes for centuries with all this "ohooo ahahhhaaaa but YOU have to RECEIVE it" little sneaky accuser-voice finger-wagging condemnation CRAP and then going on to define that "receive" as somehow suddenly becoming mysteriously able to do everything for YOURSELF what you bes supposed to need CHRIST for to do FOR you in order to "prove" that you really did "receive" the gift or that you really bes "sincere" about receiving it. It boils down ultimately to "be perfect by your own volition or you bes not sincere about God" -- which bes FALSE. and an absolute LIE crafted in the PITS OF HELL. It's all bogus crap and it bes coming DOWN. God has decreed the lies bes coming DOWN. NO MORE.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Book of Joshua - Choose you this day whom you will serve - To chose means to make a decision - the concept of decisionmaking is freewill in operation..... Unless you telling us someone put a gun to your head and said believe in God or else......

I've found nothing in the book of Joshua that suggests that we choose to recieve the free gift of grace. If you have found such a text, can you cite the chapter and verse so I can look it up for myself?

Thanks,
BFA

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

God says ALL them lies bes coming DOWN ... He bes stripping down ALL them strongholds of Satan through religion DOWN to the GROUND and dismantling them and making an open show of them and they bes running off with tails tucked.

Like that lie that one must first come under the condemnation of the law in order to be led to Christ. Christ did not operate that way. He met people where they bes at, what bes THEIR needs, what matters to THEM, and from that position He reveals Himself as THEIR PERSONAL deliverer right there on that one thing, on so profound a level that this alone opens their eyes and they SEE, not by condemnation of law but by manifestation of pure loving grace -- no holds barred no barriers no limitations to it -- that they need Him as their personal Deliverer for ALL things this life and beyond. That bes God's TRUE way of working. Once we come to Christ we don't need a freaking schoolmaster we learns direct from God. Jeremiah 31:34

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

But if man has no free will what Jesus showed us is irrelevant because the people listening to Him can't make any choices.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Salvation is the free gift not faith.

To which noun does the pronoun "it" point? Who is the author and the finisher of your faith? There are reasons you choose not to answer these questions.

You constantly change the subject between free will and then grace and faith.

A number of advocates of "free will" claim that man chooses the free gift of grace. I have consistently requested Scriptural evidence that this is true. The lack of such evidence confirms that Scripture does not teach that man chooses the free gift of grace, other than to exercise the gift of faith that He has been given by God.

You have not even indicated what you think the pelagians view of free will is.

Pelagius said, "Grace indeed freely discharges sins, but with the consent and choice of the believer." (The Letters of Pelagius and his Followers by B. R. Rees, pg 92, published by The Boydell Press)

But if man has no free will what Jesus showed us is irrelevant because the people listening to Him can't make any choices.

I have never said that man can't make any choices, nor do I believe that this is true.

I don't find any reason to go back and forth on this as you keep changing subjects and changing the context of my statements.

OK. I don't want to retain you. If this isn't a topic you'd like to explore further, feel free to visit other threads . . . . .

BFA

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

To which noun does the pronoun "it" point? Who is the author and the finisher of your faith? There are reasons you choose not to answer these questions.

I have already given you 2 articles which show that the subject is salvation not faith. The author and finisher is God who grants salvation by His grace. To accept the grace of God is an act of faith in the person of God and His word and ability to do what He says. Your own lack of discernment is frightening. That there are people in our Christian churches with such nonsensical ideas is a tragedy.

You consistently misuse the Bible such as the way you used the author and finisher above. Read the context and you would see that our faith is developed by looking at what Christ has done. Faith is based upon the evidence put forth by Jesus who lived died and lived again to reconcile us to God. As Christ conquered the sinful world He will not let us down because He is God and He can and will do what He promises.

(NASB) Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Pelagius said, "Grace indeed freely discharges sins, but with the consent and choice of the believer." (The Letters of Pelagius and his Followers by B. R. Rees, pg 92, published by The Boydell Press)

In other words it is possible to reject the gift God offers. As with any gift if it is not accepted it does not good, if it is forced to be accepted it is not a gift.

I have never said that man can't make any choices, nor do I believe that this is true.

Yes you said a person could not even choose to exercise unless God caused them to. Now you may have been carried away by rhetoric as is often the case of those who don't think about what they believe but you have to deal with what you said and I have already observed that you consistently misuse context and confuse statements.

I would still like to know which of the Calvinist Tulip points you disagree with since you said you were not Calvinistic or is that another thing you now want to disown.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

To which noun does the pronoun "it" point? Who is the author and the finisher of your faith?

Jesus Christ bes the author and finisher of Moriah's faith.
Granted, Satan wrote a few chapters of his own, but only in service to the Author and not without His permission.

A number of advocates of "free will" claim that man chooses the free gift of grace. I have consistently requested Scriptural evidence that this is true. The lack of such evidence confirms that Scripture does not teach that man chooses the free gift of grace, other than to exercise the gift of faith that He has been given by God.

Exactly as Moriah bes trying to tellsy everyone all along.
It ALL comes from God. We bes 100% dependent on God for everything in our salvation, even the faith, even the believing. He sends forth His word that we may hear; faith comes by hearing; faith comes from Him. He send forth them Holy Spirit what convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment, what leads us into all truth, what brings Jesus to us. All awareness of the issue of sin, all awareness of the righteousness of Christ, all comes from Him. He GRANTS repentance to us even; we do not work it up within ourselves from ourselves. HE provides a COMPLETE sacrifice for sin in that Lamb of God which takes AWAY the sins of the world. ALL of it bes His provision.

We can do only one thing: ASK. ASK Him and believe His word with the faith HE places in us, which He must place within us or it bes a false faith based on delusions which will fail.

Pelagius said, "Grace indeed freely discharges sins, but with the consent and choice of the believer." (The Letters of Pelagius and his Followers by B. R. Rees, pg 92, published by The Boydell Press)

Yeah well whomever he bes, he definitely added to the word of God, cuz that bes not in Scripture at ALL.

I have never said that man can't make any choices, nor do I believe that this is true.

For the record, Moriah also did speak of a selection process, wherein the chain of causality bes like a mystery in a black box to the children of men and thus they callsy "free will" because they cannot grasp all the components that actually cause them to choose as they do... but likewise it never said no selection process or mechanism exists at all. It simply prefers to use the term "selection process" to "choice".

 

[moicherie]

Believe or you will be destroyed in the lake of fire for ALL eternity.
Sounds like a pretty big freaking gun to Moriah.

Depends on if you believe in a lake of fire, even so its still freewill. One is free to jump off the Eiffel Tower but if you do the law of gravity takes over if you don't have a parachute, so would you argue there is a gun at your head to not jump off the Tower?
Freewill does not mean escape from consequences of the decision making process whether the results are good or bad.

 

[moicherie]

I've found nothing in the book of Joshua that suggests that we choose to recieve the free gift of grace. If you have found such a text, can you cite the chapter and verse so I can look it up for myself?

Thanks,
BFA

Well you won't if you keep changing the goals posts - I mentioned freewill not gift of grace - these are two different words last time I spoke English.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Depends on if you believe in a lake of fire, even so its still freewill. One is free to jump off the Eiffel Tower but if you do the law of gravity takes over if you don't have a parachute, so would you argue there is a gun at your head to not jump off the Tower?
Freewill does not mean escape from consequences of the decision making process whether the results are good or bad.

Yes but your analogy does not fit the situation because it takes an artificially-imposed "consequence" (destruction as punishment) and treats it like a natural one (gravity).

The lake of fire does not constitute a natural and unavoidable consequence. It constitutes an artificially imposed one. Just like if you get caught smoking ganja you will be subject to police arrest and detention in prison, perhaps a long time if you have enough ganja in your possession to warrant charges of distribution (whether you distribute/sell or not). This would not be a natural consequence of smoking ganja -- such as lung cancer or amotivational syndrome or even, in extreme cases, drug-induced psychosis might be -- but an artificially imposed one, fabricated by human beings through their governmental and legislative devices, and backed up by locks, bars, and deadly force.

Just like for a child, for example -- a toddler may run out into the street while playing. He may or may not get hit by a moving vehicle when he does so. If he does, yes, that would be a natural consequence. But the paddling on his rear end for doing so and escaping safely -- i.e. NOT being killed by a car -- that would be artificially imposed by parents to try to keep him safe by creating an aversion in him against doing it again. Do you think those parents would paddle him if he got hit by a car though? Freaking no way!!! But why do the parents beat him? Two reasons: first, because they love him and care about him enough to try to protect him from innocently killing himself by accident ; and second, because of the first, to teach him a LESSON that will serve him well in that regard.

And thus we come to the crux of the matter: the lake of fire, however, bes no "paddling" so we cannot even make THAT kind of metaphor. Ultimate destruction serves no rehabilitative purpose. It does not teach nor instruct with the hope of instilling a behavior mod that operates in the future. It simply exacts way more than the due "pound of flesh" and destroys.

There bes nothing "natural consequence" about it at all if you look at it clearly and straightforwardly.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Well you won't if you keep changing the goals posts - I mentioned freewill not gift of grace - these are two different words last time I spoke English.

Moicherie if Moriah may (and BFA can correct for his part if this bes not accurate) it believes that there bes two major factors in what both Moriah and BFA have been trying to communicate here.

1. the concept of "free will" does not occur in scripture (by name or by modern definition thereof). this does not mean humans do not make "choices" about things.
2. nowhere in scripture does it indicate that in order to be given God's FREE GIFT of GRACE one has to "choose" it.

For Moriah's part, having to "choose" to receive salvation in order to receive it totally annihilates the GOOD News (Gospel) of GRACE, because scripture has already concluded ALL human beings, APART from Christ, to be turned aside to their own ways, to be rebellious by nature, disobedient to God, self-serving, having a heart deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, and sealed up under unbelief -- by nature, "children of wrath". Scripture further indicates that apart from Christ we can do nothing; we cannot change our stature, we cannot make one hair white nor black, we cannot do good, period, and even all our good acts bes like filthy rags (presumably because they bes polluted with selfish intentions). Therefore to make the ONLY WAY OUT of all this contingent upon the ability to choose what by nature humans cannot choose, would render salvation a travesty and the Cross literally nothing but a cruel Ace Card for a monster God bent on revenge to play in the day of judgment, along the lines of "how could you do this to Me after all I have done for you???"

Moriah, however, has hope in a God what bes NOT like that, but reaches down INTO the darkness to bring His light, to lift up the prisoners of sin and vice, the captives in chains of deceit and misery, enslaved to the Virus consuming us, enslaved to the tyrant who exploits the Virus to chain us all to his wagon train of servitude, and break our chains and bring us out of this spiritual "egypt" (house of bondage), NOT because oh we "choose" to just up and leave (when we cannot) but because He takes pity on us and hears our cries for deliverance.

It has seen the fruit of those who take the Kingdom for granted and trust in their "free will" to secure their salvation. It has seen them raised from infancy in "the truth" and yet in the full flush of young adulthood remaining empty of the Holy Spirit, powerless and defeated, deluded beyond measure, and strangely lusting for the fleshpots of Egypt -- while the captive in chains fed from those fleshpots wails in misery and cries for deliverance, and all they can do for him bes to mock and revile. It sees them putting God off secure in the "knowledge" that they could turn to Him at any time because it depends on their "free will choice" after all -- thus turning His mercy into an obligation, a prize to be extracted from His cosmic vending machine by the flick of the "free will" lever ... *shudder*

No thanks.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Moicherie if Moriah may (and BFA can correct for his part if this bes not accurate) it believes that there bes two major factors in what both Moriah and BFA have been trying to communicate here.

1. the concept of "free will" does not occur in scripture (by name or by modern definition thereof). this does not mean humans do not make "choices" about things.
2. nowhere in scripture does it indicate that in order to be given God's FREE GIFT of GRACE one has to "choose" it.

This demonstrates the problem of Moriah and BFA, they argue straw man arguments. Is there one place in this thread where we who believe in free will have said that one has to choose Grace? As if Grace does not exist until one creates it by choice. That is the kind of theological nonsense that is being pushed by these two people. Free choice does not create God's grace. Free choice accepts the grace of God offered. It is like friendship if someone offers friendship the other can accept that friendship or reject that friendship. If formerly they were enemies then to reject the friendship leaves the person feeling the other person is still their enemy.

This nonsense about no free choice is simply refuted by the concept of repentance.