What are the main differences between Traditional and Progressive?

[RC_NewProtestants]

I am justified because Christ has credited me with righteousness, not because I am righteousness. This corruptible will not put on incorruption until the trump of God. This corruptible must place his trust in the only One who is good.

BFA

Like many you misunderstand righteousness to be works oriented. Righteousness is a trusting relationship with God, that is what He asks for.
To trust one must choose to trust. You are not righteous because God plays a shell game and credits you with the work of someone else. See the following:

Justification By Faith…No Hiding From God

 

[Mankin]

In some ways it is. But you can't make yourself miserable in your sins. That destroys the entire Christian experience. I personally think developing a strong relationship with Christ should be the focus. Then ridding yourself of sins will come along with it.

 

[Sophia7]

Probably depends on what you are meaning by pelagianism:


By the dictionary definition I would be pelagian because I don't believe in the doctrine of original sin (a depravity, or tendency to evil, held to be innate in humankind and transmitted from Adam to the race in consequence of his sin. ) If it is innate it does not have to be transmitted. And I accept the the idea of being righteous by the exercise of free will, if not then what is the point of belief and faith. (Justification by faith)

Thanks for illustrating my point.

Probably whether someone is Pelagian or semi-Pelagian or Arminian or whatever is largely a matter of perspective. Labels are not always useful because different people have different definitions and different usages of words, and not everyone would fit completely into one category anyway.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Who said anything about spirit or souls? Sin resides in the flesh. The flesh bes constructed from DNA. Science does not acknowledge the existence of sin, so they bes not looksy for it, but by the study of inherited weaknesses, tendencies, illnesses, etc. affecting mind, emotions, body, etc. it may be reasonably deduced -- by those more interested in being reasonable than in uttering scathing nastinesses against people just to be mean and ugly for no good reason whatsoever.

Free will bes entirely an illusion. As it stated earlier, based on a failure to grasp all the chains of causality going into the selection process and the mind's natural limitations being unable to parse every component. It bes a black box of indeterminate contents whats had that label slapped on it. Love does not depend on your imaginary thing called "volition" it depends upon the heart, out of which bes the issues of life.

Why bes you so hostile with this one. It has done you no wrong. God does not countenance your hostility, and the presence of it shows you lack awareness of Him. When God's Spirit visits upon Moriah then it speaks His words. Since you do not believe in demons anyways yourself why bes it even an issue for you what afflicts Moriah? Where does all this hostility come from?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Since you don't believe in free will, since you believe that you are demon possessed, I don't fell any need to discuss anything with you. I must assume that you are speaking as a demon which is an enemy of God.

If you had free will I might be inclined to think that at least some of the time the words you used were your own and not filtered through a demon but as it is I can't bring myself to give much credence to your statements.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

So what about obedience? Obedience is the product of growing in our relationship with God. We begin by following God’s most basic command:
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. (1 John 3:23-25 NIV)

It is the fruit of our relationship that reveals to others our life in God.

8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Since you don't believe in free will, since you believe that you are demon possessed, I don't fell any need to discuss anything with you. I must assume that you are speaking as a demon which is an enemy of God.

If you had free will I might be inclined to think that at least some of the time the words you used were your own and not filtered through a demon but as it is I can't bring myself to give much credence to your statements.

Right -- and lets shun those infected with HIV while we bes at it, and force them to register in a database to make sure we don't accidentally drink water from the same cup or use the same public restroom as they have done for then we too will surely be infected. After all the only way they could have become infected with HIV bes through sinning, and obviously the solution to that bes to treat them with as much hostility, contempt and dismissal as we can weave from cold and calloused hearts, because that makes SUCH a difference in showing people the love of God and motivating them to want to know Him AND helping them get past the hurdles and obstacles in their path to trusting Him.

Yeah right.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Right -- and lets shun those infected with HIV while we bes at it, and force them to register in a database to make sure we don't accidentally drink water from the same cup or use the same public restroom as they have done for then we too will surely be infected. After all the only way they could have become infected with HIV bes through sinning, and obviously the solution to that bes to treat them with as much hostility, contempt and dismissal as we can weave from cold and calloused hearts, because that makes SUCH a difference in showing people the love of God and motivating them to want to know Him AND helping them get past the hurdles and obstacles in their path to trusting Him.

Yeah right.

Indeed if there is no free will why complain what anyone does. They are all just the victim of their DNA and the "chains of causality going into the selection process and the mind's natural limitations being unable to parse every component."

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

RC just because you fail to comprehend this one's views does not give you the right to act like a brass-plated donkey-ditch over it. If you wish to engage in productive dialogue to actually comprehend what it thinks and to share what you think in a useful manner, feel free. But cut the crap already. Whatever its purpose for being alive might be, it bes certain laying down and swallowing your excreta bes not in the contract.

This bes not the first time you have been hostile toward Moriah unprovoked. Continue if you wish but you really only bes makesy yourself look bad. A man who cannot hold his temper nor tame his tongue sufficiently to be kind to those he considers "beneath" himself (it does not share this delusion but you have made your own enamourment of it abundantly clear) quickly loses all respect from the surrounding community what witnesses him in action. You may want to ask yourself if indulgence of mindless, vapid hostility toward someone you don't even know, and savouring a few fleeting moments of counterfeit self-empowerment at having cruelly demeaned with your words one what dwells in the black pits of despair already anyway, really bes a reputation worth building and staking your future name upon.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

RC please forgive daimonizomai. Your hostility hurt it and it does not know how to properly respond to that. It realises it cannot stop you from despising it and acting on those feelings, and you cannot help yourself. It will pray for you, as God commands ...

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

But I can help myself, because I have free will, I am able to change, I am able to choose to follow God or not. You say you are not in that position and I have pointed out the futility of anyone in that position, particularly bad if one thinks they are possessed by a demon. But in any case if there is no free will then there is no choice and there is no point in complaining about anyone other then complaining is part of your DNA which you can't change and your complaints can't change anyone or their DNA or help them to change. What is that definition of insanity? repeating the same activity again and again yet expecting a different result. In which case your no free will argument (though your argument has mainly been against me not against the idea of free will) leaves us in the rather sad position of saying that reality is insanity.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Like many you misunderstand righteousness to be works oriented.

Not in the least. I have no righteousness. There is only One who is good. If I am credited with righteousness, it isn't mine. My approach to this subject is anything but works oriented.

Righteousness is a trusting relationship with God, that is what He asks for.

Righteousness is just that. It is being right with God. However, I am a sinner; indeed I am a slave to sin. If I am going to be right with God, it is because of what HE has done and not because of what I have done.

To trust one must choose to trust.

Who is the author and the finisher of our faith?

You are not righteous because God plays a shell game and credits you with the work of someone else.

I am justified solely because of grace through faith. Upon justification, I am credited with Christ's righteousness. My salvation has nothing to do with human works.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Probably whether someone is Pelagian or semi-Pelagian or Arminian or whatever is largely a matter of perspective. Labels are not always useful because different people have different definitions and different usages of words, and not everyone would fit completely into one category anyway.

But isn't that exactly what we're doing in this thread? We're dividing people into groups and we're attaching a label to them. We're discussing the differences between "progressive SDAs" and "traditional SDAs." I agree that labels aren't always useful. However, that is basically what we're doing in this thread.

When we look at groups and make generalizations, I think that we can conclude that there is a difference in belief between progs and trads. Sophia, what do you believe is that difference?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

But I can help myself,

Jesus taught that he who sins is a slave to sin. Isaiah writes that human righteousness is as filthy rags. Jesus confirms that there is only One who is good.

because I have free will,

Yes, you have the freedom to believe or not to believe. However, even faith is a gift of God (see Ephesians 2) and it is God (not man) who is the author and the finisher of our faith. Man's free will does not lead him to sinless perfection. Man's free will leads him to Jesus Christ, the only source of righteousness.

I am able to change,

No. It is the Spirit that convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment (see John 14 and 16). The fruits of the Spirit are exactly that; they aren't fruits of humanity. If there is any character change, it is the result of God dwelling in man and not because of any innate goodness in a man.

I am able to choose to follow God or not.

You may be able to choose to believe, but if left to your own devises you will always choose sin (see John 8:34, Romans 7:14 and Galatians 3:22).

BFA

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Not in the least. I have no righteousness. There is only One who is good. If I am credited with righteousness, it isn't mine. My approach to this subject is anything but works oriented.

Righteousness is just that. It is being right with God. However, I am a sinner; indeed I am a slave to sin. If I am going to be right with God, it is because of what HE has done and not because of what I have done.

Who is the author and the finisher of our faith?

I am justified solely because of grace through faith. Upon justification, I am credited with Christ's righteousness. My salvation has nothing to do with human works.

AMEN!!! Thank you BFA for "bringing it" today. Moriah needed to see the truth presented so clearly as you have done. It needs that so much. So many confusing twists and clever spins out there and so hard to tell the difference sometimes. People teach confusing mixtures of truth and error with clever theological twisting and then they blame daimonizomai for becoming confused as if it wanted to. Bless you for standing up and putting the Gospel so clearly. GOOD news indeed. Praise GOD.

It noticed something you quoted (not your words) mentioned glibly that one "chooses" to trust. Poppycock. One whose trust has been broken and shattered repeatedly beyond repair cannot "choose" to trust any more than a paraplegic can just "choose" to walk. They can desire to trust, as a paraplegic can desire to walk, but that desire alone does not equip them with the ability to do so, nor will all the supposed "choosing" in the world. Like the paraplegic with walking, their condition must be HEALED for trusting to happen, and like as with a paraplegic, nothing short of a genuine bona fide miracle from God can accomplish this. Trust must be planted, nurtured, awakened, gently and patiently coaxed forth even repeatedly ... people lack the heart of God for this and think cracking a whip will get the job done; God will have to set them straight as that sort never listens to anyone and hardens their hearts against compassion and feeling and need.

Scripture does not advocate man's will worship; on the contrary it emphasizes that none of us by taking thought can add one cubit to our stature or make one hair genuinely white or black (dye jobs would not count here). Those whose interactions with others consist in behaving in the same fashion as that which breaks hope and shatters trust only serve to reinforce bondage. Of them bes it written better a millstone about the neck and drowned in the sea. And no matter how saintly their speech they work the works of the devil in tightening the chains upon his victims and slaves. But even slaves to Satan bes beloved of God. Moriah knows this!! Even slaves of Satan God loves. Jesus died for us all and we all bes slaves to sin and apart from Him we can do nothing, we can be nothing BUT. Anyone who does not regard a hostage to the devil as his brother (or sister) merely wearing a thicker version of the same chains he bes born into himself, deceives themselves and the truth bes not in them.

But you have spoken truth in your post and Moriah praises God for your clear sight of the Gospel.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

But I can help myself,

Jesus taught that he who sins is a slave to sin. Isaiah writes that human righteousness is as filthy rags. Jesus confirms that there is only One who is good.

AMEN!! The Bible does NOT teach that we can help ourselves or change ourselves to become more godly. Many delude themselves into believing this to be the case because they do not detect the agency of the Holy Spirit operating grace upon them unseen, but scripture explicitly teaches that the only source of grace, faith, conviction, even repentance, bes God Himself and His graciousness toward us. Without His hand bringing these good gifts to us we bes lost, period.
it bes NOT scriptural to teach that our reclamation, restoration and reconciliation with God comes from any other source in ANY of its particulars, least of all from ourselves and our "wills". That bes blasphemy and a lie of the devil. If you don't believe Moriah just study the occult sometime. EVERY occult tradition bes based entirely upon the "right action of the will" to presumably accomplish things only God Himself has the power to accomplish (though the devil has some ability to counterfeit).

because I have free will,

Yes, you have the freedom to believe or not to believe. However, even faith is a gift of God (see Ephesians 2) and it is God (not man) who is the author and the finisher of our faith. Man's free will does not lead him to sinless perfection. Man's free will leads him to Jesus Christ, the only source of righteousness.

Actually, man's "free" will leads him into sin, from which Christ must draw him forth like a brand plucked from the burning. Not only bes faith and grace a gift of God, but it bes God alone who brings conviction of sin in the first place and God alone what grants repentance. Yes, we cannot even repent without the grace of God making it so inside us. As you yourself state next, BFA:

No. It is the Spirit that convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment (see John 14 and 16). The fruits of the Spirit are exactly that; they aren't fruits of humanity. If there is any character change, it is the result of God dwelling in man and not because of any innate goodness in a man.

Amen. There bes NONE good BUT God. Jesus Himself said so.

You may be able to choose to believe, but if left to your own devises you will always choose sin (see John 8:34, Romans 7:14 and Galatians 3:22).

The Bible does not teach at any time that we "choose" to believe. It states that faith bes a gift from God, period. It states HOW the gift comes: by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. The Word bes seed and seed sown sprouts up and bears fruit. The Word sown in the ear and eye of a person grows inside him or her into a "faith plant" so to speak -- it springs forth into faith and faith matures into further fruit from God's Spirit as it leads us to walking in it and in Him. Nowhere does scripture teach that any portion of salvation depends either in whole or in part on the exercise of human volition. This bes a myth, and God bes revealing the truth and exposing that lie even now in this time. We bes seeing it all around, the scales coming off the eyes and man forsaking his foolish pride to listen to the word of God and take it as it states. Halleluia, for the Lord God omnipotent reigns and He shall reign forever and ever and vindicate His Name, LOVE, throughout the earth.

Praise God for you BFA. Moriah does not blame those who fear to acknowledge the Spirit of God visiting upon it while it still bes inhabited and thus refuse to hear His word through daimonizomai. Most ordinary folks cannot understand so deep a mystery and this simple fool cannot explain it adequately except to praise Him and say there bes nowhere too dark or corrupt for Him to visit (Psalm 139:7-8) because He bes everywhere. But it bes thankful He has other servants what can clearly set forth His word as you bes doing.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Yes, you have the freedom to believe or not to believe. However, even faith is a gift of God (see Ephesians 2) and it is God (not man) who is the author and the finisher of our faith. Man's free will does not lead him to sinless perfection. Man's free will leads him to Jesus Christ, the only source of righteousness.



No. It is the Spirit that convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment (see John 14 and 16). The fruits of the Spirit are exactly that; they aren't fruits of humanity. If there is any character change, it is the result of God dwelling in man and not because of any innate goodness in a man.



You may be able to choose to believe, but if left to your own devises you will always choose sin (see John 8:34, Romans 7:14 and Galatians 3:22).

BFA

Try to argue with what I am saying rather then all this other stuff. It is good that you at least admit that we have the freedom to believe or not believe. That is one of the important aspects of free will. Yes God is the author and finisher of our faith, have I anywhere said anything different. Salvation is from God is there anywhere that I said salvation is from ourselves? Unless you produce those ideas from me then you are arguing with some imaginary view you have placed upon me. I don't have the time or desire to argue imaginary issues. The root of salvation is healing it is always from God. Faith is from God also because He has given us evidence to have faith, That is why God became flesh and dwelt among us.

And lastly because I have free will I am never subjected to be left to my own devices, as I can choose to have a relationship with the almighty God. Of course if I did not have free will I would not even have my own devices I would just be what ever God made me to be, so I guess if you believed that way you could say that because God did not give you faith He did not want you to have Faith and that the gift of no faith was also from God.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Try to argue with what I am saying rather then all this other stuff.

I was simply responding to this post from you:

But I can help myself, because I have free will, I am able to change, I am able to choose to follow God or not. You say you are not in that position and I have pointed out the futility of anyone in that position, particularly bad if one thinks they are possessed by a demon. But in any case if there is no free will then there is no choice and there is no point in complaining about anyone other then complaining is part of your DNA which you can't change and your complaints can't change anyone or their DNA or help them to change. What is that definition of insanity? repeating the same activity again and again yet expecting a different result. In which case your no free will argument (though your argument has mainly been against me not against the idea of free will) leaves us in the rather sad position of saying that reality is insanity.
​

It is good that you at least admit that we have the freedom to believe or not believe.

Jesus Christ tells us to believe, so I do not argue against that which He has said. However, I also notice that faith is a gift, so I don't take credit for that which I have been given.

And lastly because I have free will I am never subjected to be left to my own devices, as I can choose to have a relationship with the almighty God.

You have now jumped from "belief" to "relationship." What will the next jump be? Will you jump from "relationship" to "obedience?" That seems to be where you're going when you write about "helping yourself," about being "able to change" and about choosing "to follow God." If you've been misunderstood, please clarify.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Actually, man's "free" will leads him into sin, from which Christ must draw him forth like a brand plucked from the burning. Not only bes faith and grace a gift of God, but it bes God alone who brings conviction of sin in the first place and God alone what grants repentance. Yes, we cannot even repent without the grace of God making it so inside us.

I completely agree, Moriah. And thank you for your kind words in this thread. It isn't my intent to rehash the election versus free will debate that has lingered in Christianity for centuries. We likely aren't going to resolve that issue here, and I don't fit neatly into the "double predestination camp" or the "salvation by choice" camp. My posts should reveal that I'm hardly a card-carrying arminian. Rather, I am fully convinced that, if there is any glory for anything that has happened in my life, it doesn't belong to me!

BFA

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

But in any case if there is no free will then there is no choice

This bes a logical phallacy and a conflation of a theological principle with practical and procedural matters in the selection process engaged by the human brain. From this first confusion you then derive the second:

and there is no point in complaining about anyone other then complaining is part of your DNA which you can't change and your complaints can't change anyone or their DNA or help them to change.

These bes your conclusions. They bes not Moriah's, so Moriah bes not answerable to them nor have they anything to do with how Moriah thinks.

And as for this:

Try to argue with what I am saying rather then all this other stuff ...
(though your argument has mainly been against me not against the idea of free will)

First, Moriah not believing the whole "will" business has nothing to do with you at all. It has held this theological position for many years and can substantiate it with scripture entirely apart from its own personal experiences pointing in the same direction.
Second it bes not arguing against you at all. It responded to BFA's post, agreeing with him. Other than what BFA quoted it has no idea what you posted as it has not read that.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I was simply responding to this post from you:

But I can help myself, because I have free will, I am able to change, I am able to choose to follow God or not. You say you are not in that position and I have pointed out the futility of anyone in that position, particularly bad if one thinks they are possessed by a demon. But in any case if there is no free will then there is no choice and there is no point in complaining about anyone other then complaining is part of your DNA which you can't change and your complaints can't change anyone or their DNA or help them to change. What is that definition of insanity? repeating the same activity again and again yet expecting a different result. In which case your no free will argument (though your argument has mainly been against me not against the idea of free will) leaves us in the rather sad position of saying that reality is insanity.
​

Jesus Christ tells us to believe, so I do not argue against that which He has said. However, I also notice that faith is a gift, so I don't take credit for that which I have been given.



You have now jumped from "belief" to "relationship." What will the next jump be? Will you jump from "relationship" to "obedience?" That seems to be where you're going when you write about "helping yourself," about being "able to change" and about choosing "to follow God." If you've been misunderstood, please clarify.

BFA

And that is the problem, you pay no attention to the context of what I wrote. Moriah accused me of treating her like dirt (actually worse). If I had no free will there would be no reason for her to tell me to change (though I never treated her like she said). But she wanted me to change. What would be the point of wanted someone to change if they can't change because they don't have the ability to change.

As far as jumping, I explained righteousness was the relationship with God several posts ago. Again the jump is occurring only in your mind and from there you make your false accusations against me.

I don't think I need to clarify because I think most people who are not reading other ideas into what I have said have a problem. So why don't you explain. Do you have free will, yes or no. Can you change your behavior, say can you choose to exercise 3 days a week when previously you did not exercise? Can you choose to, for example stop telling your neighbor that another neighbor is a a stupid jerk?

By the way when did we lose free will?

[SIZE=+0]Deuteronomy 30:19 [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So [SIZE=+1]choose life[/SIZE] in order that you may live, you and your descendants, [/SIZE]