What are 'preterists'? ... 'full' or 'partial'?

[BABerean2]

Yes, I forgot these. They are often called partial-rapturists.

I would lean toward partial-Futurism, since I do not think most Bible prophecy has occurred in the past. However, some clearly has, as revealed in the books after the Gospels.

I see two questions in the Olivet Discourse, revealed by a parallel study of the three Gospel accounts.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?


Ignoring either of these two questions in order to promote a view of eschatology, would be wrong in my opinion.

.

 

[parousia70]

I would lean toward partial-Futurism, since I do not think most Bible prophecy has occurred in the past. However, some clearly has, as revealed in the books after the Gospels.

I see two questions in the Olivet Discourse, revealed by a parallel study of the three Gospel accounts.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?


Ignoring either of these two questions in order to promote a view of eschatology, would be wrong in my opinion.

.

It's question #1 that's the stickler for futurists, for they claim Jesus NEVER answered it.

 

[Gideon]

I would lean toward partial-Futurism, since I do not think most Bible prophecy has occurred in the past. However, some clearly has, as revealed in the books after the Gospels.

I see two questions in the Olivet Discourse, revealed by a parallel study of the three Gospel accounts.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?


Ignoring either of these two questions in order to promote a view of eschatology, would be wrong in my opinion.

.

At the risk of overdoing book recommendations, may I suggest that you would relate well to Kim Riddlebarger. He is one of the best Amillenial exponents, and has also written a book called "The Man of Sin." I find his view somewhere in-between 'Historical futurism' and 'Partial Preterism.' Very balanced IMHO.

Blessings.

 

[Job8]

From what I understand, full preterists are not allowed on the board because this is supposed to be for Orthodox Christians, only. However, there are many unorthodox sects on this board, not the least of which are the dispensationalists.

The last sentence is either flagrantly misleading or a monumental display of ignorance. Most anti-dispensationalist propaganda is based on ignorance and ad hominem attacks.

1. Dispensationalists are NOT an unorthodox sect. They will generally be associated with various conservative and orthodox (evangelical and fundamentalist) Christian churches. They generally hold to Bible truth more closely than any other Christians.

2. Dispensationalism is NOT a theology. It is a hermeneutic system to properly undertsand Scripture. Hyper-dispensationalism is unacceptable.

3. The Bible itself reveals that there are AT LEAST three dispensations (or economies) which indicate how God deals with men at different times in different ways. Dispensationalism talks about 7 or 8 dispensations, but that is arguable.

4. Dispensationalism holds to the clear Bible truth that God has an eternal plan for the Church (the Body of Christ with Jew and Gentile in one Body without distinction) and an eternal plan for Israel.

5. Dispensationalism correctly interprets that all the events connected with the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, the Second Coming of Christ, the Millennial Kingdom, and the eternal state are all in the future.

6. Dispensationalism is not a new "invention" which came out of the 19th century. This method of hermeneutics was held by many of the Early Church Fathers until Augustine (who decided that he was in the Millennium!).

7. Dispensationalism correctly interprets all Bible prophecy and all Bible truth as literal, historical, chronological, and spiritual, unless there is reason to believe that symbolism or metaphors are being used.

In contrast Full Preterism teaches that all Bible prophecies were fulfilled arouond 70 A.D. (yet cannot tell us why the earth is full of unrighteousness and wickedness, and there is no peace). Partial Preterism is a slight modification of the above, where Bible prophecy becomes allegorical, symbolic, metaphorical -- anything other than plain, literal, historical or future hitorical events. As a result Bible truth is simply mangled, and the Church is confused with Israel to the detriment of both.

 

[Job8]

It's question #1 that's the stickler for futurists, for they claim Jesus NEVER answered it.

Where did you come up with this? The destruction of the Temple is clearly prophesied in Mt 24:1,2.

 

[Danoh]

Originally Posted by parousia70
It's question #1 that's the stickler for futurists, for they claim Jesus NEVER answered it.

Where did you come up with this? The destruction of the Temple is clearly prophesied in Mt 24:1,2.

Where else - in their endless "books about" - the same habit of source you and yours get your "truth" against what you and yours refer to as "hyper Dispensationalism."

But we ought to be dealing with our own difference in understanding as to this supposed "hyper" issue elsewhere, and not before these enemies of Dispensationalism in general, who also have their huge differences with one another, due to their overreliance on "books about" over the Word.

 

[Job8]

But we ought to be dealing with our own difference in understanding as to this supposed "hyper" issue elsewhere, and not before these enemies of Dispensationalism in general, who also have their huge differences with one another, due to their overreliance on "books about" over the Word.

I agree Danoh. We are not that far apart. I will quote from someone who has made a very good point:

What mid-Acts dispensationalists take as an indication of different views of salvation I believe is better understood as the artifacts of progressive revelation and the relationship between faith and works.

 

[BABerean2]

The last sentence is either flagrantly misleading or a monumental display of ignorance. Most anti-dispensationalist propaganda is based on ignorance and ad hominem attacks.

1. Dispensationalists are NOT an unorthodox sect. They will generally be associated with various conservative and orthodox (evangelical and fundamentalist) Christian churches. They generally hold to Bible truth more closely than any other Christians.

2. Dispensationalism is NOT a theology. It is a hermeneutic system to properly undertsand Scripture. Hyper-dispensationalism is unacceptable.

3. The Bible itself reveals that there are AT LEAST three dispensations (or economies) which indicate how God deals with men at different times in different ways. Dispensationalism talks about 7 or 8 dispensations, but that is arguable.

4. Dispensationalism holds to the clear Bible truth that God has an eternal plan for the Church (the Body of Christ with Jew and Gentile in one Body without distinction) and an eternal plan for Israel.

5. Dispensationalism correctly interprets that all the events connected with the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, the Second Coming of Christ, the Millennial Kingdom, and the eternal state are all in the future.

6. Dispensationalism is not a new "invention" which came out of the 19th century. This method of hermeneutics was held by many of the Early Church Fathers until Augustine (who decided that he was in the Millennium!).

7. Dispensationalism correctly interprets all Bible prophecy and all Bible truth as literal, historical, chronological, and spiritual, unless there is reason to believe that symbolism or metaphors are being used.

In contrast Full Preterism teaches that all Bible prophecies were fulfilled arouond 70 A.D. (yet cannot tell us why the earth is full of unrighteousness and wickedness, and there is no peace). Partial Preterism is a slight modification of the above, where Bible prophecy becomes allegorical, symbolic, metaphorical -- anything other than plain, literal, historical or future hitorical events. As a result Bible truth is simply mangled, and the Church is confused with Israel to the detriment of both.

Do the claims of Dispensationalists match up with scripture?


1. They hold more closely to Bible truth than others...

2. A system to "properly" understand scripture...



4. God has an eternal plan for the Church and an eternal plan for Israel...



6. This method of hermeneutics was held by many of the ECF...

7. Interprets Bible prophecy literally...


Taking the 490 year prophecy from Daniel chapter 9 and adding a manmade gap of undetermined length as well as changing a covenant confirmed by Christ into a treaty broken by the antichrist is not a "literal" interpretation.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
Who Confirmed The Covenant? | Christian Media Research


Scripture does not show two separate plans for Israel and the Church.
There has always been one plan since before the foundation of the world.
There is only one people of God.



Mat_25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Luk_1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


There were ECF who held a futurist view of scripture, however claiming they believed in separate plans of God for Israel and the Church is another matter.


Separating the New Testament into scripture for the Church and scripture for Israel cannot be considered a "literal" interpretation.

Ignoring the 1st question asked by the disciples in the Olivet Discourse cannot be considered a "literal" interpretation.


Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



All claims made by any system of interpretation should be evaluated on how it matches up with God's Word.


.

 

[Rev20]

The last sentence is either flagrantly misleading or a monumental display of ignorance. Most anti-dispensationalist propaganda is based on ignorance and ad hominem attacks.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Before you continue your "sermon," I recommend you find out what the term "Orthodox Christian" means.

 

[Danoh]

Do the claims of Dispensationalists match up with scripture?


1. They hold more closely to Bible truth than others...

2. A system to "properly" understand scripture...



4. God has an eternal plan for the Church and an eternal plan for Israel...



6. This method of hermeneutics was held by many of the ECF...

7. Interprets Bible prophecy literally...


Taking the 490 year prophecy from Daniel chapter 9 and adding a manmade gap of undetermined length as well as changing a covenant confirmed by Christ into a treaty broken by the antichrist is not a "literal" interpretation.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
Who Confirmed The Covenant? | Christian Media Research


Scripture does not show two separate plans for Israel and the Church.
There has always been one plan since before the foundation of the world.
There is only one people of God.



Mat_25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Luk_1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


There were ECF who held a futurist view of scripture, however claiming they believed in separate plans of God for Israel and the Church is another matter.


Separating the New Testament into scripture for the Church and scripture for Israel cannot be considered a "literal" interpretation.

Ignoring the 1st question asked by the disciples in the Olivet Discourse cannot be considered a "literal" interpretation.


Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



All claims made by any system of interpretation should be evaluated on how it matches up with God's Word.


.

A couple of problems there, BAB2...

Mat_25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Is not the same as...

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The former is this...from Acts 3:

19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The latter one is this...from 1 Corinthians 2:

7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

And this...from Ephesians 3:

9. And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

In other words had these principalities here... from Ephesians 6:

12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

... this Mystery, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory...

There were two falls - one in those High places that are still Lucifer's and his dark princess's realm; and the other on this Earth that he trafficked in.

God prophesied His plan and purpose for His reconciling authority over the Earth back unto Himself via a Kingdom of Priests [Jacob] over the nations of this Earth one day - "thy kingdom come in Earth as it is in Heaven" but kept "hid in God" in His manifold wisdom, His plan and purpose as to how He would one day reconcile those fallen High places one day through a New Creature: the Body of Christ as "the fullness that filleth all in all."

Ephesians 1:

8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose
of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

A plug...

But you already know all that - Stam went into it all in great detail - verse after verse after verse - in the pdf book below my signature, Things That Differ.

I don't agree with every thing in that great little book, but it does match a great deal of how I had been approaching the study of these things on my own for sometime before I'd ever even known of any form of Dispensationalism...

 

[Job8]

Ignoring the 1st question asked by the disciples in the Olivet Discourse cannot be considered a "literal" interpretation.
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

I don't know where you got the idea that Dispensationalists ignore the 1st question. The first question relates to the destruction of the Temple which was standing there and which was destroyed in 70 A.D.
But it is Luke who gives us the answer in Lk 21:20-24a. 24b refers to "the times of the Gentiles" (which are still in progress, with the Dome of the Rock sitting on the Temple Mount).

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:...

This corresponds to Lk 13:34, 35, which also points to the Second Coming of Christ, when the Jews will literally see Him and acknowledge Him and say "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord": O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

If we didn't have the rest of the prophecies in the Olivet Discourse (including the cosmic disturbances in Lk 21:25), we might erroneously conclude that everything was fulfilled in 70 A.D. (Lk 21:22). However, many other events are still future, including "signs in the sun and in the moon, and in the stars, ...distress of nations... the sea and the waves roaring... the powers of heaven shaken..." (more details in Matthew, Mark, and Revelation).

What we need to be clear about is that there are many other prophecies which would either be fulfilled or have a future fulfilment before the Second Coming of Christ (a) "with power and great glory", (b) with His holy angels, and (c) with His saints.

 

[BABerean2]

I don't know where you got the idea that Dispensationalists ignore the 1st question. The first question relates to the destruction of the Temple which was standing there and which was destroyed in 70 A.D.
But it is Luke who gives us the answer in Lk 21:20-24a. 24b refers to "the times of the Gentiles" (which are still in progress, with the Dome of the Rock sitting on the Temple Mount).

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:...

This corresponds to Lk 13:34, 35, which also points to the Second Coming of Christ, when the Jews will literally see Him and acknowledge Him and say "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord": O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

If we didn't have the rest of the prophecies in the Olivet Discourse (including the cosmic disturbances in Lk 21:25), we might erroneously conclude that everything was fulfilled in 70 A.D. (Lk 21:22). However, many other events are still future, including "signs in the sun and in the moon, and in the stars, ...distress of nations... the sea and the waves roaring... the powers of heaven shaken..." (more details in Matthew, Mark, and Revelation).

What we need to be clear about is that there are many other prophecies which would either be fulfilled or have a future fulfilment before the Second Coming of Christ (a) "with power and great glory", (b) with His holy angels, and (c) with His saints.

Sir,

If you are admitting that Luke 21:20-24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that a reference to the Abomination of Desolation is found in Luke 21:20, then I would agree with you 100% and would issue you my apology.
However, you would be a rare dispensationalist indeed.



We also know there are references in the Olivet discourse of being persecuted in the synagogues and that it did happen to the early Christians.

Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Luk_21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.


We know the early Christians fled from Jerusalem to Pella before the final assault of 70 AD. because they followed the warning by Christ.

uk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


All of these would be Christ's answer to the first question from the disciples.

1. When will these things be ? (destruction of the temple)


However, many Dispensationalists claim the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse is a future event.



.

 

[Job8]

Sir, If you are admitting that Luke 21:20-24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that a reference to the Abomination of Desolation is found in Luke 21:20, then I would agree with you 100% and would issue you my apology. However, you would be a rare dispensationalist indeed.

Actually Luke does not mention either (1) the Abomination of Desolation or (2) the Great Tribulation, but speaks of the destruction of the Temple. Just as the three Synoptic Gospels need to be harmonized in all other respects, we need to harmonize the Olivet Discourse.

Matthew and Mark connect the Abomination of Desolation with the Great Tribulation, but do not mention the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. But Luke uses some of the same terminology for the escape from Judea in 70 A.D. in connection with "the days of vengeance" (Lk 21:21,22):
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

A cursory reading would lead us to believe that the above is identical to what Matthew and Mark reveal. But because the Great Tribulation would not (and did not) occur immediately after 70 A.D., followed by all the cosmic distrubances, we must conclude that Luke is limiting his words to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. (Lk 21:20), then goes on to speak about "the times of the Gentiles" (v 24). Had Luke been referring to the Great Tribulation, there would be no "times of the Gentiles" after that.

 

[BABerean2]

Actually Luke does not mention either (1) the Abomination of Desolation or (2) the Great Tribulation, but speaks of the destruction of the Temple. Just as the three Synoptic Gospels need to be harmonized in all other respects, we need to harmonize the Olivet Discourse.

Matthew and Mark connect the Abomination of Desolation with the Great Tribulation, but do not mention the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. But Luke uses some of the same terminology for the escape from Judea in 70 A.D. in connection with "the days of vengeance" (Lk 21:21,22):
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

A cursory reading would lead us to believe that the above is identical to what Matthew and Mark reveal. But because the Great Tribulation would not (and did not) occur immediately after 70 A.D., followed by all the cosmic distrubances, we must conclude that Luke is limiting his words to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. (Lk 21:20), then goes on to speak about "the times of the Gentiles" (v 24). Had Luke been referring to the Great Tribulation, there would be no "times of the Gentiles" after that.

When Christ spoke of the Abomination of Desolation, He knew that it had already happened about 160 years before His time during the reign of Antiochus. As a matter of fact, the Jews of his time celebrated the rededication of the temple after the event.

Therefore, Jesus was making a prediction that it would happen again.


Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Occurred in 70 AD)


To claim that Luke 21:20 is not related to the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15 or Mark 13:14, is something very difficult for many of us to accept, based on the rules of normal interpretation.

.

 

[Straightshot]

Response to the OP

The Latin "preter" means "past"

The preterist is one who relegates all or most of unfulfilled prophecy into the past

Partial, or full, is a matter of degree

This interpretive methodology is used to support the traditional teachings of men and their "church" organizations

And it is an aberrant theology set out to destroy the fabric of the Lord's more sure word of prophecy

The technique is to make metaphor out of the literal when the preterist cannot reconcile future prophecy that has never yet taken place with past events of recorded history .... Like Ezekiel 39 and Zechariah 14 as examples

 

[JLB777]

Sir,

If you are admitting that Luke 21:20-24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that a reference to the Abomination of Desolation is found in Luke 21:20, then I would agree with you 100% and would issue you my apology.
However, you would be a rare dispensationalist indeed.



We also know there are references in the Olivet discourse of being persecuted in the synagogues and that it did happen to the early Christians.

Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Luk_21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.


We know the early Christians fled from Jerusalem to Pella before the final assault of 70 AD. because they followed the warning by Christ.

uk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


All of these would be Christ's answer to the first question from the disciples.

1. When will these things be ? (destruction of the temple)


However, many Dispensationalists claim the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse is a future event.



.

The Olivet Discourse has nothing to do with the events of 70AD.

 

[BABerean2]

The Olivet Discourse has nothing to do with the events of 70AD.

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
(It happened in 70 AD.)




Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
(It happened in 70 AD.)


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


1. When will the temple be destroyed? (It happened in 70 AD.)

2. What will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?
(It will happen at His Second Coming.)

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is my first time in this forum. I notice that there is a note below the link to this forum which says "No full preterist views. Partial preterists welcomed."

What does that mean? What are 'preterists' and what are 'full' and 'partial'? And why are 'full' preterists not welcome here. I was a Catholic, but I no longer attend and have been considering changing to a different church. I believe in eschatology, signs of the times, tribulations, etc., and that Christ will come again as prophesied.

Thanks for any help.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

Great thread! Just subscribing for now......A lot of Christians believe the AD70 event of the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled some, most or all of the Bible prophecies.
That is why I am studying so much on that event

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon thee, and thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to thee, and shall be encompassing thee, and pressing thee every which place.
44 And shall be leveling thee and thy offspring in thee, and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee,
because not thou knew the time of thy visitation/episkophV <1984>".

Preterism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. Daniel is interpreted as events that happened in the second century BC, while Revelation is interpreted as events that happened in the first century AD.
Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is listed in Webster's 1913 dictionary as a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond", signifying that either all or a majority of Bible prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70. Adherents of preterism are commonly known as preterists.

Contents

• 1 History of preterism
• 2 Schools of preterist thought
  • 2.1 Partial preterism
  • 2.2 Full preterism
• 3 Influences of preterism within Christian thought
• 4 Interpretation of the Book of Revelation
• 5 Interpretation of the Great Tribulation

Siege of Jerusalem (AD 70) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD was the decisive event of the First Jewish–Roman War. The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66 AD.
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD


The Destruction Of
JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible
PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF
CHRISTIANITY:
INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF
THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS


"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)





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[LittleLambofJesus]

I was a Catholic, but I no longer attend and have been considering changing to a different church. I believe in eschatology, signs of the times, tribulations, etc., and that Christ will come again as prophesied.

Thanks for any help.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

If I am not mistaken, the RCC is "Amill".
Another words, they believe they are in the "1000yr period" now. It is a form of Preterism in between Partial and Full, but IMHO, it is about as close one can get to Full Preterism......They also do not believe the futurist "Rapture" doctrine and view it as a "heretical" teaching me thinks......

Here is a thread on the OBOB board for those interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7348339-8/#post50913922
Catholic view of the end-times

I see that on our profiles at CF, we get to choose our 'endtimes' views. Which one is Catholic? I'm having some trouble figuring it out...

I know that the Church teaches Amilleninialism - which I put in bold. What about the other ones? Is it... historic, preterist, or futurist? Pretribulation, midtribulationm, posttribulation? hmm...

aren't we partial preterists?? (but here they don't make the distinction between 'full' and 'partial')

what about the tribulation? Does the Church teach that we'll be here for that - no rapture.. right?

So many names LOL

"Choose options that best describes your beliefs regarding endtimes.
Historic
Preterist
Futurist

Amillennialism
Premillennialism
Postmillennialism

Pretribulation
Midtribulation
Posttribulation"

http://www.christianforums.com/t7834299/
Amillennialism blown away by Revelation 20 (2)

Revelation 20 is very specific about what is going on. The amillennial viewpoint suggests that the 1000 years is just a really long time that the entire church has been in for the last 2000 years but John's Revelation makes it clear that the 1000 years is yet future and literal.

Rev. 20 says that those who died refusing to take the mark are resurrected and reign with Christ 1000 years. It says the rest of the dead do not rise until the 1000 years are over. Therefore, there is a millenial reign of Christ and the church over mortals on earth that is yet to come.

Here is the amillenial position:

. Amillennialists insist that the promises made to national Israel, David and Abraham, in the OT are fulfilled by Christ and the Church during this age, which is the millennium, that is the entire period of time between the two advents of our Lord. The "thousand years" are therefore symbolic of the entire inter-advental age. Satan is bound by Christ's victory over him and the establishment of the kingdom of God via the preaching of the gospel, and Satan is no longer free to deceive the nations, through the presence of Christ is reigning in heaven during this period with the martyrs who come out of the great tribulation. At the end of the millennial age, Christ returns in judgement of all men. The general resurrection occurs, final judgement takes place for all men and women, and a new Heaven and Earth are established.
C. In most forms of amillennialism, immediately before the return of Christ, Satan is unbound, there is a great apostasy, and a time of unprecedented satanically inspired evil. This last Satanic gasp and subsequent rebellious activity is destroyed by our Lord at his return.

Eschatology Chart


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[JLB777]

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
(It happened in 70 AD.)




Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
(It happened in 70 AD.)


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


1. When will the temple be destroyed? (It happened in 70 AD.)

2. What will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?
(It will happen at His Second Coming.)

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The Olivet Discourse started in verse 3, on the mount of Olivet.

Matthew 24:1-2 takes place in the Temple grounds in public.