What About Those Who Never Heard?

[ArcticFox]

I responded with scripture, which you never addressed. You diverted the discussion by claiming I was supporting universal salvation.

What you posted seemed to support universal salvation based on how you presented it.

I asked if that was the Catholic Church's position. I was asking, not stating. I was informed it was not, and haven't pursued that issue.

I responded by saying that I don't see the verses you listed as directly applicable to salvation. What are you trying to get at?

You are attempting to portray me as having "diverted" the discussion. Please discuss it, and don't play these immature games.

What is your position? Please state it clearly. Posting verses alone doesn't tell me what you believe, because I have my own understanding of those verses based on what I understand. Give me YOUR understanding of what you are posting.

No games, discussion.

 

[ArcticFox]

"Holy Anger" is something often ignored these days...

You still don't understand?

Please read the thread's title and OP. This is a thread about what happens to those who have never heard of Christ (the gospel).

What is your position and why? Stop the games. The mocking, the insults, the one-up-manship.

 

[E.C.]

I've already stated my position. I can not recall the exact page or post number, so if you really did care to know my position you would search for it yourself.

The thread is only seven pages long. My avatar and signature sort of stick out when compared to others. It would not take long.

 

[sunlover1]

I've already stated my position. I can not recall the exact page or post number, so if you really did care to know my position you would search for it yourself.

The thread is only seven pages long. My avatar and signature sort of stick out when compared to others. It would not take long.

If this works like it should, all of your nine posts will be here.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

What you posted seemed to support universal salvation based on how you presented it.

I asked if that was the Catholic Church's position. I was asking, not stating. I was informed it was not, and haven't pursued that issue.

I responded by saying that I don't see the verses you listed as directly applicable to salvation. What are you trying to get at?

You are attempting to portray me as having "diverted" the discussion. Please discuss it, and don't play these immature games.

What is your position? Please state it clearly. Posting verses alone doesn't tell me what you believe, because I have my own understanding of those verses based on what I understand. Give me YOUR understanding of what you are posting.

No games, discussion.

You claimed that ONLY those who hear about Jesus and accept him can be saved.

I gave you verses that contradicted your assertion.

You didn't address the verses with regard to your statement, you diverted the subject to universal salvation.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Holy Anger" is something often ignored these days...

Anger.......Fury......What is the Biblical difference?

#2372 used 18 times in NT. 1 time in Gospels [Luke 4:28]....10 Times in Revelation.

#3709 used 36 times in NT. 5 times in Gospels........6 times in Revelation.

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the Mountains and to the Rocks "be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath/orghV <3709> of the Lamb-kin" [Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]

Reve 15:1 And I perceived another Sign in the Heaven, great and marvelous, Messengers seven, having stripes/blows seven, the last, that in them is-finished the Fury/qumoV <2372> of the God

3709. orge from 3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

2372. thumos from 2380; passion (as if breathing hard):--fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare 5590.

 

[ArcticFox]

You claimed that ONLY those who hear about Jesus and accept him can be saved.

I gave you verses that contradicted your assertion.

You didn't address the verses with regard to your statement, you diverted the subject to universal salvation.

Stop the games.

I've explained to you that your position sounded like universal salvation, I asked you about it. Now I know what your position is more clearly, because I asked and got a response.

I've already answered you twice. I won't play these little forum games with you. I come here to discuss and debate, not play games like a child.

My time is too valuable for me to waste on immaturity for immaturity's sake. Especially on the internet.

Respond to what I wrote or there is nothing for me to respond to, just more childish games.

 

[Rajni]

Jesus said : " I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the Father but by me."
How do people who never heard about Jesus get saved?

Romans 1:20 says "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse"
this verse condems only atheists and Buddists but all other people believe in some kind of Creator and according to Rom 1:20 the nature speaks about The Creator, but the nature can't explain that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for the sins of the world.

I think God has them covered. I take comfort in the verse where Jesus says, “No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw (literally, “drag”) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:44)

Of course, this could leave a person wondering, well, if God is the one doing the drawing, then who will be so fortunate that He chooses them to drag to safety?

Answer:
"When I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw (again, "drag") all people toward me." (John 12:32)



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[Eucharistic Adoration]

Stop the games.

I've explained to you that your position sounded like universal salvation, I asked you about it. Now I know what your position is more clearly, because I asked and got a response.

I've already answered you twice. I won't play these little forum games with you. I come here to discuss and debate, not play games like a child.

My time is too valuable for me to waste on immaturity for immaturity's sake. Especially on the internet.

Respond to what I wrote or there is nothing for me to respond to, just more childish games.

I did respond. I have no idea what you are referring to.

Here is my response to your original assertion, which you have not addressed:

Luke 12

47 "Suppose a servant knows his master's wishes. But he doesn't get ready. And he doesn't do what his master wants. That servant will be beaten with many blows.
48 "But suppose the servant does not know his master's wishes. And suppose he does things for which he should be punished. He will be beaten with only a few blows.



Clearly there is a different standard depending on your knowledge of the master's will.



1 Peter 3
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.


Did these men know about Jesus when they were living on earth?

since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22



Does the sin of Adam impact those who are ignorant of Jesus?

 

[ArcticFox]

I did respond. I have no idea what you are referring to.

Here is my response to your original assertion, which you have not addressed:

Luke 12

47 "Suppose a servant knows his master's wishes. But he doesn't get ready. And he doesn't do what his master wants. That servant will be beaten with many blows.
48 "But suppose the servant does not know his master's wishes. And suppose he does things for which he should be punished. He will be beaten with only a few blows.



Clearly there is a different standard depending on your knowledge of the master's will.

Again, there is no indication of relevance to salvation. You cannot take verses from anywhere and say they apply to the issue of salvation from sins.

1 Peter 3
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.


Did these men know about Jesus when they were living on earth?

We're not going to get into a big discussion of pre-NT times. We know that Christ was always God's plan and that in a sense Christ was and is from before the foundations of the world. This is not a relevant discussion. Start a new thread if you wish, but I will not be participating.

since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22



Does the sin of Adam impact those who are ignorant of Jesus?

[/quote]

Absolutely. Of course. Don't take verses in the Bible divorced from context and assume that words like "all" or "everyone" means "all people in the entire world who ever existed" or "everyone everywhere who ever existed."

Here's a paragraph:

My students are great this year. Particularly Z class. Z class is amazing! Everyone does their work and studies hard. I'm very proud of Z class.

Here's how many people twist the Bible, but applied to my paragraph:

Let's look at verses of Fox's Paragraph. Verse 1 teaches us, "(1) My students are great this year." Now, let's look at verse 4, which tells us that "Everyone does their work and studies hard." We know that all of his students do their work and study hard. It says "everyone," this means all of them, so we know that every single student does their work and studies hard. We can be confident of this.

Meanwhile, the twisting came from divorcing verses from their context. I said nothing of my other classes, and perhaps there is one particularly bad class that doesn't work or study hard. Perhaps some of the other students from the other classes don't work or study hard. The way my paragraph was broken into pieces by me made me look like I was saying something I wasn't, and it's believable, because it uses my words just as they are... but it divorces them from context, and that is where the skewing, the spinning, the twisting begins.

In most cases, individual verses absolutely *CANNOT* be understood separate from context. There are degrees to which verses could stand alone and have valuable meaning, but aside from perhaps from sections in Proverbs and some list-like sections of the NT Epistles, there are virtually *NO* verses anywhere that can truly be understood in and of themselves.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

My students are great this year. Just as all of them work hard, all of them will be successful.


Why do Calvinists want to create two definitions for a word in the same sentence?

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

Jesus said : " I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the Father but by me."
How do people who never heard about Jesus get saved?

Romans 1:20 says "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse"
this verse condems only atheists and Buddists but all other people believe in some kind of Creator and according to Rom 1:20 the nature speaks about The Creator, but the nature can't explain that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for the sins of the world.

John 9

John 9
40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"
41Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

 

[E.C.]

My students are great this year. Just as all of them work hard, all of them will be successful.


Why do Calvinists want to create two definitions for a word in the same sentence?

Because not doing so would be consistent and accurate


It is best that the matter of those who may not have heard is left up to God.

Only He knows their hearts or the hearts of any other living soul. We would be prideful and blasphemous to make such judgments ourselves since we are not God, but we are just human beings. That is out of our capability of doing things.

It is God's job to judge because A) He is God and B) only He knows any person's hearts. Leave the job to Him. Pray that He is merciful.

In the words of St. Theophan the Recluse, "Worry not about the heterodox. They have a saviour who loves and cares for them. Worry about your own salvation".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Because not doing so would be consistent and accurate


It is best that the matter of those who may not have heard is left up to God.

Only He knows their hearts or the hearts of any other living soul. We would be prideful and blasphemous to make such judgments ourselves since we are not God, but we are just human beings. That is out of our capability of doing things.

It is God's job to judge because A) He is God and B) only He knows any person's hearts. Leave the job to Him. Pray that He is merciful.

In the words of St. Theophan the Recluse, "Worry not about the heterodox. They have a saviour who loves and cares for them. Worry about your own salvation".

Ahhh...I love that quote

Luke 3:6 And shall-be-seeing/oyetai <3700> (5695) All flesh the Salvation of the God. [Zech 2:13/Reve 11:18, 19:17]

 

[Rajni]

In the words of St. Theophan the Recluse, "Worry not about the heterodox. They have a saviour who loves and cares for them. Worry about your own salvation".

No need to worry! Jesus said, be anxious for nothing.
Jesus' sacrifice really did make a difference, and in Him God has everyone covered.

Like LLOJ mentioned above, Luke 3:6. All (meaning "not just some" ) shall see the salvation of God.




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[ArcticFox]

My students are great this year. Just as all of them work hard, all of them will be successful.


Why do Calvinists want to create two definitions for a word in the same sentence?

I don't think that is their intention.

Calvinists see very clearly what many other verses in the Bible are teaching us, and know that we must look at the rest of the Bible in accord with, well, the rest of the Bible.

Scripture with Scripture, that's a very, very important concept. Without that concept, we can get mixed up into a lot of dangerous heresy. Scripture must serve as the interpreter of Scripture. It works rather well.

Knowing what we know of God's plan of salvation from throughout the Bible, we know that not all will be saved, therefore that not all are saved or are being saved, and that not all will be with him for eternity. To interpret verses to mean such a thing, or to interpret verses to mean that he wants all to be saved even though others verses indicate he doesn't, is, well... contradictory.

We seek to make the Bible most consistent with itself. We are not pleased with man's interpretation, but want our interpretations to jive with the rest of the Scriptures.

The question is: "Is my interpretation of this part of Scripture consistent with the rest of Scripture?"

If the answer is "Not really," then we have to go back and look again.

Also, don't make the mistake of thinking that "all" will always mean "everyone in the entire world." That is such a huge, huge mistake to make. We should NEVER assume that unless the context suggests it. How often do people speak in absolutes? Seriously, how often do we speak in pure, 100% absolutes about ALL people EVERYWHERE? Not often... We should not expect that uses of the term "all" or "everyone" means every living soul in the world unless context indicates.

Instead, look at the context to see who these statements apply to. For example, 2 Peter 3:9 is often quoted as stating that God wants everyone in the world to be saved. Not true, IMO. I believe that the context of 2 Peter makes it clear that the audience is the Christians mentioned.

Watch:

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The writer is writing to a particular group, and even addresses them particularly, and then says that God wants "everyone" to come to repentance. Why would we assume that the writer suddenly switches from his local audience ("you") to the entire world? I find no reason to justify that kind of hermeneutics. Therefore, the verse accurately reads as it is. For clarification, God wants all of them (those addressed) to come to repentance. Who are they? Christians. Do Christians need to come to repentance? You bet they do.

 

[E.C.]

Scripture with Scripture, that's a very, very important concept. Without that concept, we can get mixed up into a lot of dangerous heresy. Scripture must serve as the interpreter of Scripture. It works rather well.

That is what Arius and Nestorius thought as well.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

I don't think that is their intention.

Calvinists see very clearly what many other verses in the Bible are teaching us, and know that we must look at the rest of the Bible in accord with, well, the rest of the Bible.

Their intention is less important than what they actually do. They must distort some scriptures to conform them to their dogma as applied to other scriptures.

Scripture with Scripture, that's a very, very important concept. Without that concept, we can get mixed up into a lot of dangerous heresy. Scripture must serve as the interpreter of Scripture. It works rather well.

It doesn't work for Calvinists or anyone else.

Scripture must be understood through apostolic teachings and the understanding of the Church which gave you the scriptures.

If you want to know what a book means, ask the author.

Knowing what we know of God's plan of salvation from throughout the Bible, we know that not all will be saved, therefore that not all are saved or are being saved, and that not all will be with him for eternity. To interpret verses to mean such a thing, or to interpret verses to mean that he wants all to be saved even though others verses indicate he doesn't, is, well... contradictory.

Not at all. A merciful God created us with the freedom and ability to follow him and to be with him for eternity. He wants us all to make the right choice but he knows that since we are free some of us will choose the wrong path.

We seek to make the Bible most consistent with itself. We are not pleased with man's interpretation, but want our interpretations to jive with the rest of the Scriptures.

They don't, as I have demonstrated.

The question is: "Is my interpretation of this part of Scripture consistent with the rest of Scripture?"

If the answer is "Not really," then we have to go back and look again.

HELLO!

 

[sunlover1]

Their intention is less important than what they actually do. They must distort some scriptures to conform them to their dogma as applied to other scriptures.

They want to be in vogue?

It doesn't work for Calvinists or anyone else.

Scripture must be understood through apostolic teachings and the understanding of the Church which gave you the scriptures.

If you want to know what a book means, ask the author.

See what I mean?

Not at all. A merciful God created us with the freedom and ability to follow him and to be with him for eternity. He wants us all to make the right choice but he knows that since we are free some of us will choose the wrong path.

That's your opinion. (Mine too btw)
You, like all of us, could be wrong.
I know,... I said the cuss word.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

That's your opinion. (Mine too btw)
You, like all of us, could be wrong.
I know,... I said the cuss word.

True enough.

How about applying Pascal's wager to this debate?

What's the risk of assuming we have no additional responsibility for our salvation?( Visualize yourself saying, "But Lord, when did I see you hungry?")

What's the risk of working your behind off trying to know, love and serve Jesus with all your might?