LDS What about the other standard works? (D&C and POGP)

[-57]

From what i read..
In Mormonism, Jesus is a creation, the product of relations between god and his goddess wife who used to be people from another world (McConkie, Bruce, Mormon Doctrine, p. 192, 321, 516, 589). Jesus is the literal spirit brother of the devil and you and I (McConkie, p. 192, 589). Also, in Mormon theology, God has a body of flesh and bones (Doctrine & Covenants130:22) as does his wife, and together they produce spirit offspring in heaven who inhabit human bodies on earth.


Is this what the Mormons teach?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Matter isn't eternal.
I have the feeling you're trying to tell me Jesus existed as "matter"...from eternity.

In Mormon theology the elements are eternal

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

Where you believe a spirit is made of nothing we believe a spirit is made of matter, what kind of matter we don't know but it is something and it is uncreated.

When you say created you mean 'something from nothing' we mean it was 'brought to a higher order'.

Jesus always existed, first as light and intelligence, then God the Father clothed him in spirit matter and he became the Son of God, the first born. Then he took upon him flesh as a mortal man as the only begotten, he died as his spirit left his body. Then Jesus was perfected, he was resurrected to a glorified immortal body, firstborn of the resurrection and made in the image of his Father and God.

 

[withwonderingawe]

In Mormon theology the elements are eternal

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

Where you believe a spirit is made of nothing we believe a spirit is made of matter, what kind of matter we don't know but it is something and it is uncreated.

When you say created you mean 'something from nothing' we mean it was 'brought to a higher order'.

Jesus always existed, first as light and intelligence, then God the Father clothed him in spirit matter and he became the Son of God, the first born. Then he took upon him flesh as a mortal man as the only begotten, he died as his spirit left his body. Then Jesus was perfected, he was resurrected to a glorified immortal body, firstborn of the resurrection and made in the image of his Father and God.

Replying to myself again, the word create in the Hebrew means 'to make fat', or to add more to something. The rock we call earth was floating out there in the universe, it had water I imagine in the form of ice. "and darkness was upon the face of the deep" and God said let there be light. He opened the system and started the natural process of creation or bring a dead rock to a higher order of life.

 

[Jane_Doe]

From what i read..
In Mormonism, Jesus is a creation, the product of relations between god and his goddess wife who used to be people from another world (McConkie, Bruce, Mormon Doctrine, p. 192, 321, 516, 589). Jesus is the literal spirit brother of the devil and you and I (McConkie, p. 192, 589). Also, in Mormon theology, God has a body of flesh and bones (Doctrine & Covenants130:22) as does his wife, and together they produce spirit offspring in heaven who inhabit human bodies on earth.


Is this what the Mormons teach?

-57: "From what i read..In Mormonism, Jesus is a creation"
Jane: Incorrect.

-57: McConkie, Bruce, Mormon Doctrine, p. 192, 321, 516, 589
Jane: This book is not LDS scripture nor an official publication of LDS beliefs. And it's just a bad source in general.

-57: Jesus is the literal spirit brother of the devil and you and I
Jane: Yes, the Father is the Father of all. Unless you believe in some other Father exists out there, this is the only conclusion.

-57: Also, in Mormon theology, God has a body of flesh and bones (Doctrine & Covenants130:22)
Jane: This part is true. The Bible specifies that the Son has a body of flesh and bones today, and that the Holy Spirit is a personage of Spirit. The Bible does not specify on the Father, but most mainstream Christian assume that He is non-physical as well. Through revelation, LDS do not speculate or assume on that matter.

-57: as does his wife
Jane: This you are getting far away from core LDS teachings. I would rather focus on them first before addressing this.

-57: together they produce spirit offspring in heaven who inhabit human bodies on earth.
Jane: The Father is the Father of our spirits. He does not go *poof* like a magician, but molds from eternally existing intelligences. The details of this process is not known.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Matter isn't eternal.

Doesn't say that in the Bible.

I have the feeling you're trying to tell me Jesus existed as "matter"...from eternity.

Nope. Wasn't going to say that.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Alla27, do you have a spirit?

Yes, as do I, and you.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Jane: This book is not LDS scripture nor an official publication of LDS beliefs. And it's just a bad source in general.

I don't think it's a bad source, one just has to understand that it's the gospel according to McConkie and as he attained further light and knowledge he corrected his thinking. That's okay, Paul saw through a glass darkly and more light was given to him.

 

[withwonderingawe]

The Bible does not specify on the Father

I think the Bible is quite clear on the subject, We are made in his image, Moses understood that God could eat! Job understood that he would see God. And John was told "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them...."

 

[NYCGuy]

From what i read..
In Mormonism, Jesus is a creation, the product of relations between god and his goddess wife who used to be people from another world (McConkie, Bruce, Mormon Doctrine, p. 192, 321, 516, 589). Jesus is the literal spirit brother of the devil and you and I (McConkie, p. 192, 589). Also, in Mormon theology, God has a body of flesh and bones (Doctrine & Covenants130:22) as does his wife, and together they produce spirit offspring in heaven who inhabit human bodies on earth.


Is this what the Mormons teach?

I'm not so sure about "relations" per se, however it is Mormon theology that although we have all eternally existed as "intelligences" prior to our spiritual birth, we are all the literal spirit offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, our heavenly parents. This includes Jesus, who is the literal firstborn spirit son of the Father and Mother.

 

[miknik5]

Most people start with the Book of Mormon first, then move on from there.

Although the missionaries simply give out the Book of Mormon on the first go, the other works have their emphasis as well; if a person rejects the BoM, then there's obviously no point in going further.

As it is, anyone and everyone can go to LDS.org and read the scriptures for themselves anyway -> https://www.lds.org/scriptures .

There's no point going any further?
What do you mean?

 

[miknik5]

Jesus is God He couldn't inherit anything from anybody. It is this confusing Trinity - Father, Son and Spirit are equal + all other stuff that nobody actually comprehend.

I thought you bo

Dzheremi, the Book of Mormon's purpose is to bring men unto Christ. That is the first focus of missionary efforts. If a person is unwilling to accept Christ, missionaries will stay focused on that before moving on to other topics. That's not to sat that other topics aren't talked about, but the focus stays on having that person come to Christ.

Note: If a person downloads the LDS scripture app, all the standard works are there. This app is free and on iTunes and a bunch of other places. Speaking practically, in the US majority of people in church nowadays use the app predominately.


A better way to phrase this is that until a person has accepted Christ (which is the Book of Mormon's purpose), there's no point in covering more advance topics. The foundation in Christ must be laid first.


In a way this is not so different than the different books in the Bible: when teaching you first start in the NT Gospels. You don't start in Isaiah.


A person is welcome and invited to learn from all scripture. Nothing is hidden. But that doesn't mean a algebra student should jump into calculus-- they'd just get lost and frustrated. We start with Christ, and work from there. All are welcome to learn as much as they want. Nothing is hidden.

you start with CHRIST and work to where exactly?

 

[fatboys]

I thought you bo

you start with CHRIST and work to where exactly?

To be obedient to his laws as we repent and change to become more like Christ. Belief Just gets us started on the road towards Christ. It is up to us to commit ourselves by changing. If we are willing to follow Christ we have to be baptized by someone holding the authority and is authorized to baptize. I personally hold the priesthood and have baptized many into the church.

 

[-57]

In Mormon theology the elements are eternal

As a Christian i don't recognize Mormon doctrine. It contradicts true biblical teachings.

 

[-57]

-57: Jesus is the literal spirit brother of the devil and you and I
Jane: Yes, the Father is the Father of all. Unless you believe in some other Father exists out there, this is the only conclusion.

The bible CLEARLY conradicts this:

COL 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

COL 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

[-57]

Doesn't say that in the Bible.

Yes...lets start with Gen 1:1.

1 Cor 2:7 indicates time began.
No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

Matter can't exist outside of time.

Heb 11:3 talks about creation ex nihlo....By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

 

[-57]

Yes, as do I, and you.

Would that spirit be considered as you? Just as your flesh and bones is considered as you?

 

[-57]

I think the Bible is quite clear on the subject, We are made in his image, Moses understood that God could eat! Job understood that he would see God. And John was told "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them...."

Image can mean more than just physical attributes. You do know that? It also doesn't have to mean because we eat God eats.

 

[-57]

I'm not so sure about "relations" per se, however it is Mormon theology that although we have all eternally existed as "intelligences" prior to our spiritual birth, we are all the literal spirit offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, our heavenly parents. This includes Jesus, who is the literal firstborn spirit son of the Father and Mother.

Jesus is not a literal spirit offspring of Heavenly Father. That would indicate Jesus had a beginning.

Suggesting just because Jesus came from God and some mother??? and God is eternal doesn't make Jesus eternal.

 

[-57]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

The bible is quite clear that Jesus and God co-existed together from eternity past. No need for a creation or a mother.

 

[-57]

Replying to myself again, the word create in the Hebrew means 'to make fat', or to add more to something. The rock we call earth was floating out there in the universe, it had water I imagine in the form of ice. "and darkness was upon the face of the deep" and God said let there be light. He opened the system and started the natural process of creation or bring a dead rock to a higher order of life.

No it doesn't.

Here, take these verses and insert "made fat" where created is seen. Let me know how it makes out.
Genesis 1:1
HEB: בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת
NAS: God created the heavens
KJV: God created the heaven
INT: in the beginning created God the heavens

Genesis 1:21
HEB: וַיִּבְרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֔ים אֶת־
NAS: God created the great sea monsters
KJV: And God created great whales,
INT: created God sea

Genesis 1:27
HEB: וַיִּבְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים ׀ אֶת־
NAS: God created man in His own image,
KJV: So God created man in his [own] image,
INT: created God man

Genesis 1:27
HEB: בְּצֶ֥לֶם אֱלֹהִ֖ים בָּרָ֣א אֹת֑וֹ זָכָ֥ר
NAS: of God He created him; male
KJV: of God created he him; male
INT: the image of God created male and female

Genesis 1:27
HEB: זָכָ֥ר וּנְקֵבָ֖ה בָּרָ֥א אֹתָֽם׃
NAS: him; male and female He created them.
KJV: and female created he them.
INT: male and female created

Genesis 2:3
HEB: מְלַאכְתּ֔וֹ אֲשֶׁר־ בָּרָ֥א אֱלֹהִ֖ים לַעֲשֽׂוֹת׃
NAS: which God had created and made.
KJV: which God created and made.
INT: his work which had created God and made

Genesis 2:4
HEB: הַשָּׁמַ֛יִם וְהָאָ֖רֶץ בְּהִבָּֽרְאָ֑ם בְּי֗וֹם עֲשׂ֛וֹת
NAS: and the earth when they were created, in the day
KJV: and of the earth when they were created, in the day
INT: of the heavens and the earth were created the day made

Genesis 5:1
HEB: אָדָ֑ם בְּי֗וֹם בְּרֹ֤א אֱלֹהִים֙ אָדָ֔ם
NAS: when God created man,
KJV: that God created man,
INT: of Adam the day created God man

Genesis 5:2
HEB: זָכָ֥ר וּנְקֵבָ֖ה בְּרָאָ֑ם וַיְבָ֣רֶךְ אֹתָ֗ם
NAS: He created them male and female,
KJV: and female created he them; and blessed
INT: male and female created blessed and called

Genesis 5:2
HEB: אָדָ֔ם בְּי֖וֹם הִבָּֽרְאָֽם׃ ס
NAS: in the day when they were created.
KJV: in the day when they were created.
INT: Man the day were created

Genesis 6:7
HEB: הָאָדָ֤ם אֲשֶׁר־ בָּרָ֙אתִי֙ מֵעַל֙ פְּנֵ֣י
NAS: whom I have created from the face
KJV: man whom I have created from the face
INT: man whom have created from the face

Exodus 34:10
HEB: אֲשֶׁ֛ר לֹֽא־ נִבְרְא֥וּ בְכָל־ הָאָ֖רֶץ
NAS: which have not been produced in all
KJV: marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth,
INT: which nor been produced all the earth

Numbers 16:30
HEB: וְאִם־ בְּרִיאָ֞ה יִבְרָ֣א יְהוָ֗ה וּפָצְתָ֨ה
NAS: the LORD brings about an entirely new thing
KJV: But if the LORD make a new thing,
INT: if an entirely brings the LORD opens

Deuteronomy 4:32
HEB: הַיּוֹם֙ אֲשֶׁר֩ בָּרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים ׀ אָדָם֙
NAS: that God created man
KJV: that God created man
INT: the day which created God man

Joshua 17:15
HEB: לְךָ֣ הַיַּ֔עְרָה וּבֵרֵאתָ֤ לְךָ֙ שָׁ֔ם
NAS: up to the forest and clear a place for yourself there
KJV: to the wood [country], and cut down for thyself there in the land
INT: go to the forest and clear there the land

Joshua 17:18
HEB: יַ֣עַר ה֔וּא וּבֵ֣רֵאת֔וֹ וְהָיָ֥ה לְךָ֖
NAS: shall be yours. For though it is a forest, you shall clearit, and to its farthest borders
KJV: shall be thine; for it [is] a wood, and thou shalt cut it down: and the outgoings
INT: forest you shall clear become farthest

1 Samuel 2:29
HEB: בָּנֶ֙יךָ֙ מִמֶּ֔נִּי לְהַבְרִֽיאֲכֶ֗ם מֵרֵאשִׁ֛ית כָּל־
NAS: above Me, by making yourselves fat with the choicest
KJV: thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest
INT: your sons above making the choicest of every

2 Samuel 12:17
HEB: אָבָ֔ה וְלֹֽא־ בָרָ֥א אִתָּ֖ם לָֽחֶם׃
INT: would not choose for food

Psalm 51:10
HEB: לֵ֣ב טָ֭הוֹר בְּרָא־ לִ֣י אֱלֹהִ֑ים
NAS: Create in me a clean heart,
KJV: Create in me a clean heart,
INT: heart A clean Create God spirit

Psalm 89:12
HEB: וְ֭יָמִין אַתָּ֣ה בְרָאתָ֑ם תָּב֥וֹר וְ֝חֶרְמ֗וֹן
NAS: and the south, You have created them; Tabor
KJV: and the south thou hast created them: Tabor
INT: and the south You have created Tabor and Hermon

Psalm 89:47
HEB: מַה־ שָּׁ֝֗וְא בָּרָ֥אתָ כָל־ בְּנֵי־
NAS: vanity You have created all
KJV: how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men
INT: what vanity have created all the sons

Psalm 102:18
HEB: אַחֲר֑וֹן וְעַ֥ם נִ֝בְרָ֗א יְהַלֶּל־ יָֽהּ׃
NAS: That a people yet to be created may praise
KJV: and the people which shall be created shall praise
INT: to come A people to be created may praise the LORD

Psalm 104:30
HEB: תְּשַׁלַּ֣ח ר֭וּחֲךָ יִבָּרֵא֑וּן וּ֝תְחַדֵּ֗שׁ פְּנֵ֣י
NAS: forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew
KJV: forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest
INT: send your Spirit are created renew the face

Psalm 148:5
HEB: ה֭וּא צִוָּ֣ה וְנִבְרָֽאוּ׃
NAS: For He commanded and they were created.
KJV: for he commanded, and they were created.
INT: He commanded were created

Ecclesiastes 12:1
HEB: וּזְכֹר֙ אֶת־ בּ֣וֹרְאֶ֔יךָ בִּימֵ֖י בְּחוּרֹתֶ֑יךָ
NAS: Remember also your Creator in the days
KJV: Remember now thy Creator in the days
INT: Remember your Creator the days of your youth